Is everything that is not RC or Orthodox protestant?

[FR0G]

I have heard the argument that the only churches that are protestant are the ones that were a direct result of the Reformation (Lutheran, Methodist, Wesleyan? Help me out here...) and that others, like Baptist and Assmbly of God, are not by default "protestant" simply because they're not Catholic. What's your take?

 

[Blackhawk]

I have heard the argument that the only churches that are protestant are the ones that were a direct result of the Reformation (Lutheran, Methodist, Wesleyan? Help me out here...) and that others, like Baptist and Assmbly of God, are not by default "protestant" simply because they're not Catholic. What's your take?

I think baptists are protestants. At first the word protestant had a specific meaning but later it changed. It is no longer viewed as the ones who protested against the RCC but instead it means all non-Catholic churches. Also Baptists come from the protestant denominations (AnaBaptists) so they have a direct link to the original protestant churches. Also they have retained much of the theology that makes protestants protestant. Sola scriptura, sola fide, Sola gratia are all believed by baptists traditionally. So Baptists are protestant. If they are not what are we going to do make a new classfication? What would it be called? I think the ones who are saying they are not are the same ones who believe in the organic succession theory of baptist beginnings. This theory states that Baptists started in NT times. That there is a kind of apostolic succession for baptists. The Trail of Blood is the major text for this movement. I think it is all bunk. It was done to give credibility to Baptists and to show that they were better than a new group that was taking away some of its members. (The church of Christ) Many older Baptists call others "Campbellites" as a derogatory term for ones that they did not like.

 

[FR0G]

Stupid question - what is sola fide?

 

[Blackhawk]

Stupid question - what is sola fide?

sola fide- faith alone justifies- justification by faith
sola gratia- grace alone saves. We are saved by grace only.

Gave you both just in case you were interested.

 

[FR0G]

Thank you. I knew the other "solas",but have never heard the term "sola fide" before. Appreciate it.

 

[Blackhawk]

Thank you. I knew the other "solas",but have never heard the term "sola fide" before. Appreciate it.

Cool. here is a site that explains all 5 solas.

http://www.5solas.org/media.php?id=1

 

[FR0G]

LOL...a friend of mine has a link to this site in her email signature, and I have actually been there before. Guess I didn't read it very carefuly though.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

Some Baptists object to being called Protestants because they say they never protested anything. but for classification purposes, they are, whether they like it or not, because they're not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Within Protestantism you have subsets of Mainline Protestants and Fundamentalists/Evangelicals. Some might not fit into either category well like Unity church, but they're closer to Mainline than the F/E side.

I've heard some very conservative fundamentalists describe Mormons and Pentecostals as "liberals". Most Mormons and Pentecostals would disagree with that, but, I see why they say it, to say 'they're not the same as us" even if they are more like them and not.

 

[dignitized]

It all depends on how you are going to define the term Protestant. There are many churches which while not RC or EO have more in common with these expressions of the faith than with Baptist or AoG churches.

So how do we define what is or what isn't Protestant?

 

[Ken]

Baptists in America are not really part of the Anabaptists, eg Mennonites and Amish, rather their earliest roots trace to breaks from Puritan Congregationalists.....

"Through the study of such men and events of Colonial America, it is clear that Baptists did not migrate to America: English Puritans migrated to America, who, in turn, became Baptists. To be sure, from these men came hosts of American-born Baptists, but the evidence seems very clear that American Baptists trace back to Colonial Puritanism. Continental (Dutch and Swiss) Anabaptism did have some migration to the New World (such as Hanserd Knollys who arrived in Boston in 1638), but these "Anabaptists" would not fit the description or theology of what is recognized to be "Baptist." They did have Baptist-type beliefs but were Anabaptists of another type (Mennonite, etc.). America's earliest Baptists were originally Puritans within the Church of England: Williams, Clarke, Dunster, Thomas Gould, etc...In summary, Baptists in America, although having certain theological similarities to Continental Anabaptism, have no historical connection with them. Their descent from Colonial Puritanism is obvious and also explains the dominance of Calvinistic theology, not only in those first Baptists in New England but in their children. John Myles, who had previously taken orders from the Anglican Church, may have been the first Baptist to immigrate to the colonies, having embraced Baptist beliefs while in Wales. With Myles, then, Baptists have come out of Puritanism without ties to Anabaptism on the Continent." (Fred Zaspel, http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/ecclesiology/baptism.htm )

 

[Blackhawk]

Baptists in America are not really part of the Anabaptists, eg Mennonites and Amish, rather their earliest roots trace to breaks from Puritan Congregationalists.....

"Through the study of such men and events of Colonial America, it is clear that Baptists did not migrate to America: English Puritans migrated to America, who, in turn, became Baptists. To be sure, from these men came hosts of American-born Baptists, but the evidence seems very clear that American Baptists trace back to Colonial Puritanism. Continental (Dutch and Swiss) Anabaptism did have some migration to the New World (such as Hanserd Knollys who arrived in Boston in 1638), but these "Anabaptists" would not fit the description or theology of what is recognized to be "Baptist." They did have Baptist-type beliefs but were Anabaptists of another type (Mennonite, etc.). America's earliest Baptists were originally Puritans within the Church of England: Williams, Clarke, Dunster, Thomas Gould, etc...In summary, Baptists in America, although having certain theological similarities to Continental Anabaptism, have no historical connection with them. Their descent from Colonial Puritanism is obvious and also explains the dominance of Calvinistic theology, not only in those first Baptists in New England but in their children. John Myles, who had previously taken orders from the Anglican Church, may have been the first Baptist to immigrate to the colonies, having embraced Baptist beliefs while in Wales. With Myles, then, Baptists have come out of Puritanism without ties to Anabaptism on the Continent." (Fred Zaspel, http://www.biblicalstudies.com/bstudy/ecclesiology/baptism.htm )

This is mostly true but I was speaking more of where they got there influence from mostly. However many early baptists were not Calvinists. the General Baptists were Arminian and were actually the first Baptists.

 

[puriteen18]

There were some "Baptists" excomunicated from Francis's Johnson's Puritan (Barrowists to be exact) Congregation, which had fled to Campen, Holland in 1593. These were excommunicated in 1594 because of certain "Anabaptist" beliefs.

The Barrowists were Catabaptist; they allowed their children to go unbaptized untill they could be baptized by a "true " minister of the gospel.

These who were excommunicated took the next step and took the beliver's baptism view. However, they probably held on to the rest of their Calvinistic theology.

It's hard tracking down what happened to these people after they were excommunicated.

But it is strange that the writers of the 1644 Bapt Confession (first official Calvinistic Baptist confession) looked to the "TRVE CONFESION OF FAYTH" of the Barrowists as the model.

Hmmm...makes you wonder.

 

[puriteen18]

I might also mention that the General Baptist, who were very influenced, by the Anabaptists (their founder John Smyth actually became a Mennonite later) became what we know today as the Free Will Baptist Churches.

All "just normal" Baptists (although I've never met what may be called a normal Baptist) desend from the Particular Baptist, which was one of the Puritan Churches. The others being Presbyterians, Congragationalists, Reformed Anglicans and a bunch fo Non-conformists and Independents.

Today, however, most "normal" Baptists have forsaken the Doctrines of Grace in favor of a modified "Arminian" view.

Well, they did keep one of the D of Gs, the Preseverance of the Saints. But the other four are gone. They fully embrace free will theology, exepting a very small few.

Kind of got off topic there, but couldn't resist to give a little Baptist history.