Is everything "meaningless" without God?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'd say wanted, as in his Will.

I smell what you're stepping in.

 

[Hieronymus]

I smell what you're stepping in.

You mean my shoes?
Yes, flowers smell better...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You're now on my ignore list.

Christians ignoring atheists when they can't rebut the atheist's arguments is par for the course around here...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Christians ignoring atheists when they can't rebut the atheist's arguments is par for the course around here...

It goes both ways. Ever go on any threads Nihilist Virus posts? I think he has just about every theist on his ignore list.

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[Hieronymus]

Christians ignoring atheists when they can't rebut the atheist's arguments is par for the course around here...

Yeah right....

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Yeah right....

Lol. I've seen both you and Jason ignoring posts...

 

[StanJ]

Christians ignoring atheists when they can't rebut the atheist's arguments is par for the course around here...

How exactly do you expect to rebut someone that says nothing but simply equivocates at every turn?

 

[Freodin]

I believe that this is why God created the universe and all life (including mankind). Because He needs us in order to have the capacity to express His love.

His agape love?

Let's take a look at what you wrote earlier:

“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:4-8a). What do you notice about everything that Paul uses to explain what love (agape) is and is not? They are all actions that we can choose or choose not to do. More specifically, anytime you put another's needs ahead of your own, you are demonstrating (Agape) love for that person. "Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's love for one's friends." (John 15:13) Once again, this "greatest love" is an action... not a feeling.

Patient: what does "patience" mean for an eternal being? What can it even mean?
Kindness: much has been said about God's inactivity in the face of evil, as well as the immorality of setting up a system of eternal torment for "failures". Whatever justification you can bring up for this... it can never be called "kind".
Envy: God himself said that he is an envious or jealous God. The usual explanation for that is that God is "envious" in that he is demanding what is rightfully his. But "agape" love must also be given freely. There is not right to it. Whatever you describe it as: God has said that he is envious.
Boasting and pride: we are here in a thread that tells us that everything is meaningless with God. Everything is said to be for his "Glory".
Rudeness: telling conscious beings that they are worthless and cannot do anything good is rather rude... even if it might be true.
Self-seeking: just as with pride. Also, the whole story of creating conscious beings just in order to have someone to love.
Not easily angered: God is said to be always angry "with the wicked"... those people who dare to not love him.
Always protects: except when a) the object of the divine agape love is wicked... wicked people don't deserve to be protected or b) "free will"... God cannot protect even those he loves from the evil that the free will of others enact upon them. Or natural disasters. Or divine wrath. Just listen to the Christian survivors of plane crashs, tornados or mass shootings how God protected them. You never hear from those he didn't protect...
Always trusts: in what? Every human is a sinner, only God's grace saves them.
Always hopes: until death. Then God's hope in humans stops... and they are left in a state of hopelessnes.
Always preseveres: again, until death. Then it is off to eternal regret, to a place without God.
Never fails: except when it does.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's love [sic] for one's friends: Something that God didn't do. Jesus on the cross? Jesus is alive... the "Living God", isn't he? That sound like "misplace one's live for a moment" rather that "laying down one's life".

God might care for his creation... like a potter cares for his pots (as long as he didn't create them to fail). But "agape" love in the way Paul described? God fails his own purpose.

 

[bhsmte]

How exactly do you expect to rebut someone that says nothing but simply equivocates at every turn?

Well, the problem is, you couldnt refute what i claimed; 2/3 of the worlds population disagrees with your personal faith beliefs.

You claimed i made it up and i provided research from Pew, that supported my claim.

Sometimes, reality bites.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

His agape love?

Let's take a look at what you wrote earlier:


Patient: what does "patience" mean for an eternal being? What can it even mean?
Kindness: much has been said about God's inactivity in the face of evil, as well as the immorality of setting up a system of eternal torment for "failures". Whatever justification you can bring up for this... it can never be called "kind".
Envy: God himself said that he is an envious or jealous God. The usual explanation for that is that God is "envious" in that he is demanding what is rightfully his. But "agape" love must also be given freely. There is not right to it. Whatever you describe it as: God has said that he is envious.
Boasting and pride: we are here in a thread that tells us that everything is meaningless with God. Everything is said to be for his "Glory".
Rudeness: telling conscious beings that they are worthless and cannot do anything good is rather rude... even if it might be true.
Self-seeking: just as with pride. Also, the whole story of creating conscious beings just in order to have someone to love.
Not easily angered: God is said to be always angry "with the wicked"... those people who dare to not love him.
Always protects: except when a) the object of the divine agape love is wicked... wicked people don't deserve to be protected or b) "free will"... God cannot protect even those he loves from the evil that the free will of others enact upon them. Or natural disasters. Or divine wrath. Just listen to the Christian survivors of plane crashs, tornados or mass shootings how God protected them. You never hear from those he didn't protect...
Always trusts: in what? Every human is a sinner, only God's grace saves them.
Always hopes: until death. Then God's hope in humans stops... and they are left in a state of hopelessnes.
Always preseveres: again, until death. Then it is off to eternal regret, to a place without God.
Never fails: except when it does.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's love [sic] for one's friends: Something that God didn't do. Jesus on the cross? Jesus is alive... the "Living God", isn't he? That sound like "misplace one's live for a moment" rather that "laying down one's life".

God might care for his creation... like a potter cares for his pots (as long as he didn't create them to fail). But "agape" love in the way Paul described? God fails his own purpose.

Nice straw collection. I am not going to waste time being distracted by straws so I will simply return the straw distractions with a short sermon before I move on the original point.

Love (God) does not force Himself on anyone. Those who come to Him do so in response to His love. Love (God) shows kindness to all. Love (Jesus) went about doing good to everyone without partiality. Love (Jesus) did not covet what others had, living a humble life without complaining. Love (Jesus) did not brag about who He was in the flesh, although He could have overpowered anyone He ever came in contact with. Love (God) does not demand obedience. God did not demand obedience from His Son, but rather, Jesus willingly obeyed His Father in heaven. “The world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me” (John 14:31). Love (Jesus) was/is always looking out for the interests of others.

The greatest expression of God's love is communicated to us in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Romans 5:8 proclaims the same message: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” We can see from these verses that it is God's greatest desire that we join Him in His eternal home, heaven. He has made the way possible by paying the price for our sins. He loves us because He chose to as an act of His will. Love forgives. “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).

So, what does it mean that God is love? Love is an attribute of God. Love is a core aspect of God’s character, His Person. God’s love is in no sense in conflict with His holiness, righteousness, justice, or even His wrath. All of God’s attributes are in perfect harmony. Everything God does is loving, just as everything He does is just and right. God is the perfect example of true love. Amazingly, God has given those who receive His Son Jesus as their personal Savior the ability to love as He does, through the power of the Holy Spirit (John 1:12; 1 John 3:1, 23-24).

Now moving on. How does everything I mentioned earlier apply to atheist? Well, how are Christians "saved"? They have a relationship with Jesus and accept Him as their savior. So what about before Jesus? How were Moses, Aaron, David, Samuel, Elijah and the other prophets were "saved". The answer is because they followed the commandments with the anticipation of the coming Messiah (Jesus). So what about people before Moses and the commandments? How were Able, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, and Noah saved? That is a good question. The answer is this, "They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times defending them." (Romans 2:15). Now I do not believe that it is the 620 plus laws of the Old Testament that is described but rather the two commandments that Jesus spoke of "Love the Lord with all you heart, and all your soul, and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like unto it, you should love you neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.".

Furthermore, it is important to note that before God revealed himself to Abraham, people did not know who or what God was. They knew there was some nameless God out there, but did not know much more than that. They also knew that it was wrong to murder, steal, commit adultery, ect... because "the law is written on our hearts. You see evidence today when you find people in the most remote regions of the earth who are completely isolated from any other civilization. These people also worship a god because the commandment "to love God" is written on their hearts. These people also know that murder, theft, and adultery is wrong because the commandment "to love your neighbor" is written on their hearts.

Now, what about people who have never heard about the God of Abraham or Jesus? What someone, because of no fault of their own, is genuinely ignorant about the God of Abraham or Jesus. Can they be saved. I cannot tell you for sure because only God knows. All I can say is that I have to believe that they can. I know that God is just, merciful, and omniscient. God knew you before he created you. (Jaremiah 1:5) I also know that God will show mercy for genuine ignorance "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law". (Romans 2:12). With all that being said, I cannot believe for one second that God would create someone (including an atheist) knowing that they would go to hell. I have to believe that at the moment of death God would know, if given the opportunity to know Jesus, what decision they would make based on the nature of their heart.

Now I am not an universalist, but I do believe that if a non-believer spent their entire life trying to "find God", they are no different that the people who were saved prior to Abraham and thus fulfilling the first and greatest commandment. Also, if a non-believer spends their entire life trying to do what is right and has genuine remorse when they fail, they are fulfilling the second commandment. So how does it make you feel that despite the fact that you are and atheist, whenever you express agape love, you are worshiping and obeying the God you have not yet accepted?

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Lol. I've seen both you and Jason ignoring posts...

Well, some people have lives and careers. Also, this is not the only forum I participate in so I apologize if I have not graced every post that came my way.[emoji4]

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[Chany]

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps God just simply wanted to love someone and you are right that it is selfish in nature. Then again, I guess it is selfish for a man to want a woman to love. It would also be selfish for a couple to what children to love also.

The "perhaps" here is a big one that warrants a decisive answer. If it is the case of being selfish i.e. God ultimately is doing it for his own well being and purpose, then agape love (selfless love) does not make sense (not that there was a very good reason to believe it in the first place).

Value originates from feeling. Things like love and attachment are based them. If you don't have any internal feeling, then you are an object. At best, you can be a hyper rational computer. But a computer doesn't care about anything.

 

[Oafman]

so I will simply return the straw distractions with a short sermon before I move on the original point

Thank you for the warning. Most of the time around here, people just launch into a sermon with no warning, and you end up getting a few lines in before you realise what they're doing and stop reading.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Thank you for the warning. Most of the time around here, people just launch into a sermon with no warning, and you end up getting a few lines in before you realise what they're doing and stop reading.

No problem.

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[ToddNotTodd]

Well, some people have lives and careers. Also, this is not the only forum I participate in so I apologize if I have not graced every post that came my way.

I'm guessing that all of us have lives in careers. Most of us don't use that as an excuse however. But whatever gets you through the night...

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'm guessing that all of us have lives in careers. Most of us don't use that as an excuse however. But whatever gets you through the night...

Well, I am sorry you feel left out. Don't worry, you are special in God's eyes. [emoji4]

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[HitchSlap]

Well, I am sorry you feel left out. Don't worry, you are special in God's eyes. [emoji4]

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Not too mention Santa's "naughty & nice" list.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Not too mention Santa's "naughty & nice" list.

Sure, that too.

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[Belk]

<Sniping intro so the part I wish to quote Shows up>

So if God does not exist, the universe was created from nothing, by nothing, for absolutely no reason.

This would seem a false dichotomy. We do not have knowledge sufficient to speculate on the how universes are formed.

All life, including our own, is nothing more than a byproduct of nature by natural means and when we die we will fade into nothing. Ultimately the universe will use up all its energy (per the laws of thermodynamics ) and fade into blackness.

Again, not a given but I understand where you are coming from.

With all that being said, what's the point? Is everything not meaningless?

I guess that depends upon your point of view. Some see great meaning in their life. Personally I agree with you. The whole exercise when viewed from my limited perspective seems rather pointless if I am not around to view it. But then, that seems to me to be a product of our limited human centric perspective not something inherent in the universe.

Edit: apparently there is some confusion on what the word "meaningless" means. The Hebrew word used for meaningless is הָ֫בֶל "hebel" which means futility, pointlessness, or fruitlessness. It has nothing to do with the purpose of something but rather what the end result of something.

An example would be a man trying to build a house next to the ocean and every day for the rest of his life the tide came in and swept his work away. The purpose of his work is to build a house. However, what does he have to show for all his labor in the end?

So not "Meaningless", just <List of synonyms for meaningless>?

 

[Noxot]

to me everything is meaningless without God. her kisses are too sweet to ever want anything else.

the more I find God the more I find myself and everything I ever wanted. this meaningless world has meaning because of God.