Floatingaxe
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I'll stick with the clear words of Jesus and disagree with you, since I'm not bound by 17th century suppositions. True, belief is required, but God determines when.
In the Greek your "forever and ever" is "eternity of eternities", which is nonsensical. How is it that literal translations of the bible can consistently translate aion as a temporal term, yet it is impossible to consistently translate aion as "eternity"?
When we say in English that a tree will never produce fruit again, there is an implicit understanding that we are talking about a time horizon within the normal life of a tree. However, the Greek aion explicitly conveys this meaning.
The question of who goes to heaven is not a matter of how we interpret Scripture but rather ultimately what the will of the Father is
Having read scripture it is plain to me that every person ever born, no even conceived, WILL get to meet the Son in heaven and only those not willing not to spend eternity with their creator will be "excused" from doing so.
It is good to see you on the thread.
I have spent many hours prayfully seeking God's wisdom on this issue , even to the point of disagreement with the WOF position.Your position is similiar to the one I held for years. It allows room for the love and father heart of God. However, at the time I was operating under the assumption that man had free will to choose God. But all things were created by him, through him and for him. He's not about to be missing a toe or arm, just because that toe or arm went awol. He requires every cell to enjoy his physical universe
It is good to see you on the thread.
Your position is similiar to the one I held for years. It allows room for the love and father heart of God. However, at the time I was operating under the assumption that man had free will to choose God. But all things were created by him, through him and for him. He's not about to be missing a toe or arm, just because that toe or arm went awol. He requires every cell to enjoy his physical universe.
I'll stick with the clear words of Jesus and disagree with you, since I'm not bound by 17th century suppositions. True, belief is required, but God determines when.
In the Greek your "forever and ever" is "eternity of eternities", which is nonsensical. How is it that literal translations of the bible can consistently translate aion as a temporal term, yet it is impossible to consistently translate aion as "eternity"?
When we say in English that a tree will never produce fruit again, there is an implicit understanding that we are talking about a time horizon within the normal life of a tree. However, the Greek aion explicitly conveys this meaning.
Pretty sure we've gone here before, but you are not correct. But let's use your example. When a tree will never produce fruit again, we asume it will never produce fruit again, ever, unless it can produce fruit after it has died, which it can't, forever and every. So if in fact you say a tree with never produce fruit (aion) it will in fact never produce fruit forever and ever. Eternity to eternity is semantics, it means the same thing. And you translate it to mean eternity, but that is an English translation, one of many, that can be used. But that is not the only translation, but one of a few.
Again, as it keeps coming up and is a common universalism argument:http://www.ovrlnd.com/Universalism/aionios.htmlGreek word "aion" used of God's glory1. Philippians 4:20 "Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen."Greek word "aion" used of God's throne
2. 1 Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."Greek word "aion" used of God's duration
1. 1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."Greek word "aion" used of the saints
2. 1 Peter 4:11 "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
3. Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."Greek word "aion" used of heaven
Matthew 25:46 "but the righteous into life eternal."Greek word "aion" used of hell
1. Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."Greek word "aionios" used of heaven
2. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."
3. Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
4. Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"
Luke 18:30 "in the age to come, eternal life."Greek word "aionios" used of hell
1. Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night."
2. Revelation 20:10 "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Your opions on matters,matters not. chapther and ver. please that state what you just said! since Eph. 4;14 states "aii are of the family of God." as for deuteronomy you understand is lack to say the less. as for the lake of firer show me one name of a person that god say's is thrown into it.Not every human being is His child, nor will they be. We all have been created with a will of our own to choose or reject life.
Ever read Deuteronomy?
Some folk are of the devil and will join him in the lake of fire forever.
Universalistic beliefs are lies concocted by the devil to tickle the ears of the unbelieving.
Your opions on matters,matters not. chapther and ver. please that state what you just said! since Eph. 4;14 states "aii are of the family of God." as for deuteronomy you understand is lack to say the less. as for the lake of firer show me one name of a person that god say's is thrown into it.
Greek word "aion" used of God's glory
1. Philippians 4:20 "Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen."Greek word "aion" used of God's throne
"To the ages of the ages" makes better sense than "to the eternities of the eternities." Paul's usage is in conformity with the Jewish mindset of one age following another.
2. 1 Timothy 1:17 "Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen."
See above, this is another "eternities of the eternities."
Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."Greek word "aion" used of God's duration
Wow, this is a major scriptural contradiction. The son's throne is not for ever. He hands the kingdom over to the Father at the end. See 1 Cor 15:24. and also verse 25: "For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet." Properly translating "to the age of the age" eliminates the problem.
1. 1 Peter 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."Greek word "aion" used of the saints
Your "for ever" is not even in the Greek text! It has the Strong's number 9999. If you check it out, Strongs has: " Note: inserted word (x) This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text. "
2. 1 Peter 4:11 "If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Here again, the mistranslation creates the same contradiction of scripture described above in the Heb 1:8 commentary.
3. Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."
Again, this contradicts scripture. The correct rendition of the Greek words clears the error.
1 John 2:17 "And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever."Greek word "aion" used of heaven
The reference here is to earthly life for saints in the next life would not need John's admonition to do the will of God. "To or into the age" is true to the context and the Greek.
Matthew 25:46 "but the righteous into life eternal."Greek word "aion" used of hell
How many times have we covered this text. Aionian life relates not to duration but to a quality of life that exemplies the messianic age. Jesus says in John that aionian life is knowing God the father and Jesus Christ whom he has sent.
1. Matthew 25:46 "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."Greek word "aionios" used of heaven
See above and note also that the "everlasting punishment" in the Greek refers to remedial punishment. Eternal remedial punishment makes no sense, but properly translating the phrase as age during punishment eliminates the problem. Also, the Greek phrase Jesus uses appears in secular usage of his time in reference to judicial rulings.
2. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord."
What a horrendous thought-eternal destruction. The Greek carries the idea of destruction for an age. Like metal ore, when it is destroyed by a change of state, ie, the slag being separated from the precious metal, the wicked are destroyed by God's refining process. Once refined they cease to be wicked. They become part of the "all in all".
3. Matthew 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
Again, this is age during fire, see the above commentary of Matt 25. Have you ever done a word study of fire? It is a purifying agent, and not a bad thing. God is a consuming fire.
4. Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"
Again, using the temporal term fits more with the many scriptural references, OT and NT, that state God does not punish forever. Also, Jude 6 contains one of the few incidences where eternal means eternal in the Greek, aidios, eternal chains for the rebellious angels held till judgment.
Luke 18:30 "in the age to come, eternal life."Greek word "aionios" used of hell
Again, Jesus uses aionian life to refer to quality, not duration.
1. Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night."
2. Revelation 20:10 "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
See above expanations.
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past). This "extension" didn't occur till Augustine's poor Greek and his application of it.; byimplication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
So in fact forever and ever is, contrary to what you stated, exactly how it is used in some occasions.
Haven't we been arguing for an age that since St Augustine, the true meaning of aion has been corrupted and extended to mean eternity, when it suited the translators. Jesus' contemporaries didn't make this extension. The pagans and the Pharisees used different Greek words to describe eternal torment. I side with the authority of Homer, Aristotle, Josephus,Philo, Marvin Vincent and Robert Young to name but a few.
Haven't we been arguing for an age that since St Augustine, the true meaning of aion has been corrupted and extended to mean eternity, when it suited the translators. Jesus' contemporaries didn't make this extension. The pagans and the Pharisees used different Greek words to describe eternal torment. I side with the authority of Homer, Aristotle, Josephus,Philo, Marvin Vincent and Robert Young to name but a few.
Haven't we been arguing for an age that since St Augustine, the true meaning of aion has been corrupted and extended to mean eternity, when it suited the translators. Jesus' contemporaries didn't make this extension. The pagans and the Pharisees used different Greek words to describe eternal torment. I side with the authority of Homer, Aristotle, Josephus,Philo, Marvin Vincent and Robert Young to name but a few.
I see only understanding of Scripture which is skewed to reflect one's denial of half of God's very personality and character. So, of course many UR's would pull out only the nicey-nice verses that say what they like to hear.
HAVING ONCE HELD YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION, I BLUSH TO SAY IT WAS NOT DIFFICULT TO HEAR.
What kiind of faith does that generate? EASY BELIEVISM! False faith based on a lie.
YOUR DOCTRINE GOES BACK TO THE 17TH C. UNIVERSALISM GOES BACK TO THE 1ST CENTURY.
Ephesians 4:14 is talking to the ACTUAL family of God--believers only!
DO YOU MEAN EPH 4:6, SINCE EPH 4:4 MAKES NO REFERENCE TO THE FATHER OR FAMILY? EPH 4:6: "ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS OVER ALL AND THROUGH ALL AND IN YOU ALL,".
PAUL CONTRADICTS YOUR POSITION IN ACTS 17:28 TO 29 WHEN HE ADDRESSES THE PAGANS AT ATHENS: "'FOR IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND ARE; AS ALSO CERTAIN OF YOUR POETS HAVE SAID: FOR OF HIM ALSO WE ARE OFFSPRING. BEING ,THEREFORE, OFFSPRING OF GOD, WE OUGHT NOT TO THINK THE GODHEAD TO BE LIKE TO GOLD OR SILVER OR STONE, GRAVING OF ART AND DEVICE OF MAN.'"
ake note to whom Paul addresses this letter! Take note also who are the adopted children!
GOD'S CHILDREN ARE BEGOTTEN. ADOPTION REFERS TO POSITION AND PAUL IN ROM 8:23 DEFINES IT AS THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES.
Ephesians 1:1-8
1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus. I am writing to Gods holy people in Ephesus, who are faithful followers of Christ Jesus.
2 May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace.
Spiritual Blessings
3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. 4 Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. 6 So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
PLEASE NOTE VERSE 5 WHERE IT SAYS "THIS IS WHAT HE WANTED TO DO". IN 1 TIM 2:4, IT STATES THAT IT IS GOD "WHO DOTH WILL ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." EPH 1:11 STATES THAT GOD WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL. ISAIAH STATES NO ONE CAN THWART HIS WILL.
ALSO, WHY STOP AT VERSE 8. VERSE 9 AND 10 GO ON TO SAY: "HAVING MADE KNOWN TO US THE SECRET OF HIS WILL, ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE, THAT HE PURPOSED IN HIMSELF, IN REGARD TO THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES, TO BRING INTO ONE THE WHOLE IN THE CHRIST, BOTH THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS, AND THE THINGS UPON THE EARTH-IN HIM."
We will all know soon enough the names of many of the millions who will be cast into the Lake of Fire--that is God's determination, not ours.
YES , IT IS GOD'S DETERMINATION AND NOT OURS. SO ACCEPTING JESUS IS NOT A MATTER OF OUR CHOICE. IT IS A MATTER OF GOD'S TIMING AND IN THE FULLNESS OF TIMES, HE HAS CHOSEN TO GATHER ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF, INCLUDING THOSE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE (OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE). REJOICE THAT HE BROUGHT YOU TO HIMSELF BEFORE THE LAKE OF FIRE, BECAUSE YOU (AND I) HAVE NO PERSONAL SAY IN THE MATTER.
DO YOU MEAN EPH 4:6, SINCE EPH 4:4 MAKES NO REFERENCE TO THE FATHER OR FAMILY? EPH 4:6: "ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS OVER ALL AND THROUGH ALL AND IN YOU ALL,".
PAUL CONTRADICTS YOUR POSITION IN ACTS 17:28 TO 29 WHEN HE ADDRESSES THE PAGANS AT ATHENS: "'FOR IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND ARE; AS ALSO CERTAIN OF YOUR POETS HAVE SAID: FOR OF HIM ALSO WE ARE OFFSPRING. BEING ,THEREFORE, OFFSPRING OF GOD, WE OUGHT NOT TO THINK THE GODHEAD TO BE LIKE TO GOLD OR SILVER OR STONE, GRAVING OF ART AND DEVICE OF MAN.'"
PLEASE NOTE VERSE 5 WHERE IT SAYS "THIS IS WHAT HE WANTED TO DO". IN 1 TIM 2:4, IT STATES THAT IT IS GOD "WHO DOTH WILL ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." EPH 1:11 STATES THAT GOD WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL. ISAIAH STATES NO ONE CAN THWART HIS WILL.
HAVING ONCE HELD YOUR DOCTRINAL POSITION, I BLUSH TO SAY IT WAS NOT DIFFICULT TO HEAR.
YOUR DOCTRINE GOES BACK TO THE 17TH C. UNIVERSALISM GOES BACK TO THE 1ST CENTURY.
DO YOU MEAN EPH 4:6, SINCE EPH 4:4 MAKES NO REFERENCE TO THE FATHER OR FAMILY? EPH 4:6: "ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS OVER ALL AND THROUGH ALL AND IN YOU ALL,".
PAUL CONTRADICTS YOUR POSITION IN ACTS 17:28 TO 29 WHEN HE ADDRESSES THE PAGANS AT ATHENS: "'FOR IN HIM WE LIVE AND MOVE AND ARE; AS ALSO CERTAIN OF YOUR POETS HAVE SAID: FOR OF HIM ALSO WE ARE OFFSPRING. BEING ,THEREFORE, OFFSPRING OF GOD, WE OUGHT NOT TO THINK THE GODHEAD TO BE LIKE TO GOLD OR SILVER OR STONE, GRAVING OF ART AND DEVICE OF MAN.'"
GOD'S CHILDREN ARE BEGOTTEN. ADOPTION REFERS TO POSITION AND PAUL IN ROM 8:23 DEFINES IT AS THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES.
PLEASE NOTE VERSE 5 WHERE IT SAYS "THIS IS WHAT HE WANTED TO DO". IN 1 TIM 2:4, IT STATES THAT IT IS GOD "WHO DOTH WILL ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME TO THE FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH." EPH 1:11 STATES THAT GOD WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS WILL. ISAIAH STATES NO ONE CAN THWART HIS WILL.
ALSO, WHY STOP AT VERSE 8. VERSE 9 AND 10 GO ON TO SAY: "HAVING MADE KNOWN TO US THE SECRET OF HIS WILL, ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE, THAT HE PURPOSED IN HIMSELF, IN REGARD TO THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES, TO BRING INTO ONE THE WHOLE IN THE CHRIST, BOTH THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS, AND THE THINGS UPON THE EARTH-IN HIM."
YES , IT IS GOD'S DETERMINATION AND NOT OURS. SO ACCEPTING JESUS IS NOT A MATTER OF OUR CHOICE. IT IS A MATTER OF GOD'S TIMING AND IN THE FULLNESS OF TIMES, HE HAS CHOSEN TO GATHER ALL THINGS UNTO HIMSELF, INCLUDING THOSE IN THE LAKE OF FIRE (OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE). REJOICE THAT HE BROUGHT YOU TO HIMSELF BEFORE THE LAKE OF FIRE, BECAUSE YOU (AND I) HAVE NO PERSONAL SAY IN THE MATTER.
Do you really think God didn't desire that Adam and Eve rebel? For of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil didn't he say "for in the day thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die"? God trains his offspring (including pagan Athenians) by showing them what pleases and displeases him. There's the full expectation that they will fail, indeed that failure is part of the lesson. His punishments are just, however, because they are remedial in nature. (God uses both positive and negative reinforement).
Paul speaks of the mystery of God's will in Eph 1:9. In verse 10 he expains that the mystery of God's will is to gather all things in Christ at the fullness of times. Verse 11 adds that he works all things in accordance to his own will. The end result is also outlined in 1 Cor 15:23-28. All things are gathered in Christ and Christ in God, that God may be the all in all.
Sorry are you saying it's Gods will one sins?
I think you are starting to run into the error that universalism faces. Was it God's will one sinned? Nope, which goes against the belief that God's will is always fulfilled. Seems the more you go down this path the less it makes sense.
Certainly, it serves God's ultimate purpose that man should sin. Since he is omnipotent, sin could not exist in his universe without his permission. He gave the law that sin might abound. (Ro 5:20). Man had no choice, but to sin. "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all." (Ro 11:32). It is God who hardens hearts, blinds eyes, stops ears. "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Ro 9:21).
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