Is Evangelical Criticism of the Medieval Church Just?

[Tolkien R.R.J]

My thought is that the Medieval Church was far more productive then modern.

Is Evangelical Criticism of the Medieval Church Just? – The Postil Magazine

www.thepostil.com

 

[HTacianas]

My thought is that the Medieval Church was far more productive then modern.

Is Evangelical Criticism of the Medieval Church Just? – The Postil Magazine

www.thepostil.com

The worst thing you can say about the medieval Church would be that it was a product of its time. Heresy and blasphemy were felonies punishable in the same manner as all felonies.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

My thought is that the Medieval Church was far more productive then modern.

Is Evangelical Criticism of the Medieval Church Just? – The Postil Magazine

www.thepostil.com

No Medieval Church history, no bible in English, no Evangelical Church.

Same deal as usual.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

The worst thing you can say about the medieval Church would be that it was a product of its time. Heresy and blasphemy were felonies punishable in the same manner as all felonies.

Specific heresy.

I would recommend the entire series but....

The Inquisitions of the Middle Ages - Part 3: The Inquisitions and Freedom of Speech — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history

The Inquisitions of the Middle Ages were a series of judicial procedures led by the Roman Catholic Church in the later Middle Ages in response to movements that the Church considered heretical. Here, Jeb Smith continues his series by looking at free speech in the context of the inquisition

www.historyisnowmagazine.com

 

[RileyG]

No Medieval Church history, no bible in English, no Evangelical Church.

Same deal as usual.

It's my understanding the first English Bible was by a Augustinian friar (Catholic to Anglican) in the 1500s. It was a translation from German and Latin into English by friar Myles Coverdale.

 

[RileyG]

Specific heresy.

I would recommend the entire series but....

The Inquisitions of the Middle Ages - Part 3: The Inquisitions and Freedom of Speech — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history

The Inquisitions of the Middle Ages were a series of judicial procedures led by the Roman Catholic Church in the later Middle Ages in response to movements that the Church considered heretical. Here, Jeb Smith continues his series by looking at free speech in the context of the inquisition

www.historyisnowmagazine.com

The Spanish crown controlled the inquisition, it wasn't sanctioned by the RCC, if I understand correctly.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

It's my understanding the first English Bible was by a Augustinian friar (Catholic to Anglican) in the 1500s. It was a translation from German and Latin into English by friar Myles Coverdale.

Yep. Without Medieval history, the renaissance wouldn't have happened. and thus no English bible.

 

[RileyG]

Yep. Without Medieval history, the renaissance wouldn't have happened. and thus no English bible.

exactly!

 

[DamianWarS]

exactly!

The invention of printing press (c1450) was the key ingredient to the Reformation. Widely available and inexpensive bibles in people's mother tongue is a strong motivator.

 

[RileyG]

The invention of printing press (c1430) was the key ingredient to the Reformation. Widely available and inexpensive bibles in people's mother tongue is a strong motivator.

That makes much sense! Thank you!

 

[okay]

They lost me at the first sentence:

The compartmentalizing of religion, the separation of church and state, and the closet Christianity of modern America resulted from the communist and totalitarian inability to eradicate Christians by persecution.

Am I the only one who doubts that is the actual origin of church-state separation in the US?

 

[Bob Crowley]

The invention of printing press (c1430) was the key ingredient to the Reformation. Widely available and inexpensive bibles in people's mother tongue is a strong motivator.

The printing press was one factor out of a number. It certainly made the situation more flammable, just as the internet today is stoking polemical fires of another sort. But we were already in a "Post-Christian" society when the internet came along. LIkewise there were other religious, political, economic and intellectual issues in play before the printing press was invented.

Other factors in the Reformation were the rise of Nationalism (Henry VIII started the British navy for example, which was greatly expanded by Elizabeth); the rise of mercantilism compared to feudalism, resentment of the church's property holdings; the humanist ideals of the renaissance (centred in Italy); and the printing press as mentioned.

Protestant Reformation

The Protestant Reformation's concepts of individualism and free expression of religion are incorporated into the First Amendment.

firstamendment.mtsu.edu

The Reformation did not arise in a vacuum. Its rise was influenced by currents of nationalism, mercantilism, anticlericalism, and opposition to vested property interests in the hands of the church that had begun in the late fourteenth century. Among the earliest of those calling for a return to biblical teachings were John Wycliffe, at Oxford University, and Jan Hus, at Charles University, Prague. The church burned Wycliffe posthumously as a heretic in 1384 and condemned and executed Hus in 1415.

Corruption in the Church was another contentious issue, and five of the eight most corrupt popes appeared shortly before and even during the early Reformation.

The Bad Popes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

• Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy.
• Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[1]: 153 
• Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[1]: 204 
• Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony.[1]: 218 
• Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

It is most interesting to me, to contemplate the last thousand years, as the Father in Heaven gradually taking power away from the human sworn vow. For a different thousand-year period, the church-authorities kept a visible monolith often by way of that power, which was used to kill as many as they could who refused it, to maintain general ignorance, and other major efforts; but the Father has acted and continues to act, and the consequences ripple out in many, many directions. So I'll have to suggest that it is the magisteria, not the church as a whole, which needs to be regarded as compromised.

but I say to you not to swear at all...but let your word be, Yes, Yes, No, No, and that which is more than these is of the evil [one].
Matthew 5:34-37

 

[DamianWarS]

Other factors in the Reformation were the rise of Nationalism (Henry VIII started the British navy for example, which was greatly expanded by Elizabeth); the rise of mercantilism compared to feudalism, resentment of the church's property holdings; the humanist ideals of the renaissance (centred in Italy); and the printing press as mentioned.

indeed, but all would not have happened without the printing press.

another influencer that people don't often look at is the fall of Constantinople and the subsequent diaspora of the eastern church into greater Europe. the Eastern church were the keepers of scripture, when they dispersed so did their secrets.

 

[Bob Crowley]

What do you mean by "keepers of scripture"?

The Western Church had the scriptures for most of its history long before the fall of Constantinople.

But they were in limited quantities due to the fact they were written by hand. A single Bible could take a few years to write.

Illuminated manuscripts for example were a product of the Western Church.

Gold, Gospels and Knights Fighting Snails: An Introduction To Illuminated Manuscripts - READ-COOP

Read the Post Gold, Gospels and Knights Fighting Snails: An Introduction To Illuminated Manuscripts in our Blog.

blog.transkribus.org

PS - Like the western laity the Byzantine would have heard the Bible read aloud in church. Very few would have read it for two reasons- the sheer scarcity of Bibles, and low standards of literacy. That is the same reason that the medieval church used art in its churches and cathedrals - to teach the largely illiterate laity the stories of the Bible.

THE BIBLE AND ITS MANY USES IN BYZANTIUM by Claudia Rapp and Andreas Külzer

The Bible is the foundational text for the Byzantine Empire in all its political, religious, and cultural manifestations. The nine papers in the newly released The Bible in Byzantium (the introduct…

orthodoxyindialogue.com

Most of the men, women, and children in Byzantium would have encountered the Holy Scriptures predominantly in the context of the Divine Liturgy. (ie. they heard it read, just as the Catholic Church today has three Bible readings and a responsive psalm in just about every mass). They would have seen the preciously decorated book covers as the codex was carried from behind the iconostasis into the congregational space for the liturgical reading, they would have heard the priest recite passages from the Gospels according to the liturgical calendar of readings, and all the while, they may have noted in the church around them depictions on icons or frescoes of selected words and phrases from the Bible associated with figural or scenic representations.

I doubt whether the combined Byzantine Church had any more access to Biblical manuscripts than the combined Western Church.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

I doubt whether the combined Byzantine Church had any more access to Biblical manuscripts than the combined Western Church.

Interesting question. I have thought that the denial in the west was largely a matter of denying access to Latin. Did the same thing happen to Greek in the post-Byzantine churches? I have received two firsthand reports that this did not occur in the Assyrian church.

 

[Bob Crowley]

Interesting question. I have thought that the denial in the west was largely a matter of denying access to Latin.

What do you mean by this? The official language of the western church was Latin. It was the language of the educated classes - Newton wrote his Principia Mathematica in Latin; Luther's Wittenburg points were originally in Latin; Calvin first wrote his Institutes in Latin with a French translation later; and Shakespeare would have been taught Latin in school.

Small Latin, less Greek? :: Life and Times :: Internet Shakespeare Editions

internetshakespeare.uvic.ca

At grammar school he would have learned to read Latin, and his familiarity with the drama of Plautus in his early Comedy of Errors shows that he could read Latin when he wanted to. There is no evidence to suggest that he could read Greek.

Incidentally that's where the term "Grammar School" came from - they were noted for teaching Latin Grammar.

As for not preaching in the vernacular languages, that's a lie.

Vernacular Religion in the Latin Middle Ages 1: Homilies

I was chatting with a friend at a barbecue yesterday (indeed, in the smoke of the very barbecue itself!), and the subject of the Council of Tours of 813 arose, as it does. It arose for about the on…

thepocketscroll.wordpress.com

Over a century after Charlemagne’s reform synod in 813 at Tours, in a land beyond Frankish control, we have the homilies of Aelfric of Eynsham, whose Old English homilies survive — you can read modern English translations here, if you wish. We also have the tenth-century Blickling Homilies in Old English. I am not an expert on all the vernacular homilies, but I do note a book about preaching in Romance languages prior to 1300 in my university’s catalogue. A lot of these sermons do not survive in the vernacular, though, as discussed at Harvard’s Houghton Library website. Since Latin was the international language of public discourse, most
sermons were translated into Latin for dissemination; thus, the oral and the written find themselves at a much farther remove in this instance than usual.

Latin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After the Western Roman Empire fell in 476 and Germanic kingdoms took its place, the Germanic people adopted Latin as a language more suitable for legal and other, more formal uses.[13]

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

The official language of the western church was Latin. It was the language of the educated classes

Right. The educated classes: the very tiny minority, only after swearing various vows, which Christ the Lord says are of the evil one. Everyone else, denied, to the point of many deaths as the Father weakened the magisteria and their vow-swearing puppet states. Eventually the death-dealing stopped, but it was far too late to prevent the exposure of much unpleasant reality.

 

[Bob Crowley]

You've got an obsession with an imaginery juggernaut of death at the hands of Catholic Church authorities. Read an informed article for a change.

Were 50 Million People Really Killed in the Inquisition?

Some anti-Catholic polemicists exploit myths about the Inquisition in a spirit of fear, surprise, ruthless exaggeration, and an almost fanatical opposition to the pope

www.ncregister.com

On page 87 of his book, Dr. Peters states: “The best estimate is that around 3000 death sentences were carried out in Spain by Inquisitorial verdict between 1550 and 1800, a far smaller number than that in comparable secular courts.” Likewise, Dr. Kamen states in his book:

That's 250 years, and the Inquisition was well documented so you can be sure these figures are accuate. 3000 executions in 250 years works out at an average of 12 per year, compared to the outright lies of some blatantly dishonest Protestant accounts of 50 million people out of an entire population of 100 to 200 million in Europe at the time.

. . . it is clear that for most of its existence that Inquisition was far from being a juggernaut of death either in intention or in capability. . . . it would seem that during the 16th and 17th centuries fewer than three people a year were executed in the whole of the Spanish monarchy from Sicily to Peru, certainly a lower rate than in any provincial court of justice in Spain or anywhere else in Europe. (p. 203)

Thus, it is clear that the notion of the death penalty for heresy was largely a product of the Middle Ages, and the Protestants who came at the end of that period did not, for the most part, dissent from it at all. In fact, the execution of reputed “witches” was almost entirely a Protestant phenomenon (as in the famous Salem Witch trials). To utterly ignore these facts, while condemning the Catholic Church, is to engage in dishonest historical revisionism.

 

[JEBofChristTheLord]

Concerning the thousand years in which the Roman church killed all of the other churches it could reach. I imagine you are familiar with Constantine, and Charlemagne, and the more recent wars in which the Italians reduced papal dominion to a postage stamp? Charlemagne and his followers help fill the bill rather nicely.