Is Eschatology based on the Book of Enoch like a "Flat Earth"?

[BABerean2]

Several members of this forum have relied on the Book of Enoch as a source of truth regarding the word "Nephilim".

The book is included by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Some have also insisted that the earth is really flat, based on what is written in the Book of Enoch.
Most of us who have an interest in astronomy would totally reject the "Flat Earth" concept as ridiculous, based on our modern understanding of the universe.

Please include comments here for or against using this book in our discussion of Eschatology.

Is there any evidence of this book before the 2nd century BC?

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[bcbsr]

Several members of this forum have relied on the Book of Enoch as a source of truth regarding the word "Nephilim".

The book is included by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Some have also insisted that the earth is really flat, based on what is written in the Book of Enoch.
Most of us who have an interest in astronomy would totally reject the "Flat Earth" concept as ridiculous, based on our modern understanding of the universe.

Please include comments here for or against using this book in our discussion of Eschatology.

Is there any evidence of this book before the 2nd century BC?

.

Wikipedia has it as:

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ mets’iḥāfe hēnoki) is an ancient Jewish religious work, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC.

I don't believe it's scripture. I think its a Jewish myth. Enoch lived about 3500 BC. There are no scriptures from that period. Furthermore the content is just bizarre, if you read it. Way more bizarre than the book of Revelation.

 

[Ken Rank]

Wikipedia has it as:

The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch;[1] Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ mets’iḥāfe hēnoki) is an ancient Jewish religious work, ascribed by tradition to Enoch, the great-grandfather of Noah. The older sections (mainly in the Book of the Watchers) of the text are estimated to date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC.

I don't believe it's scripture. I think its a Jewish myth. Enoch lived about 3500 BC. There are no scriptures from that period. Furthermore the content is just bizarre, if you read it. Way more bizarre than the book of Revelation.

While I don't see it as "Scripture" it is quoted often enough within Scripture to be weighed in. Incidentally, there are THREE different versions of Enoch... and only one (Ethiopian) stands in harmony to Scripture. Now, it still will seem out there in some respects, but I can show you alternate ways to view certain parts of Scripture that when viewed through that light, are in harmony with what Enoch is saying. One of them, for example.... in Gen. 6, the "sons of God" taken "human women" as wives and their offspring are giants. The ONLY other time the "sons of God" are mentioned in the OT is in Job where they along with satan stand before God basically petitioning Him for Job's life. If the "sons of God" are fallen angels, and if they did take "daughter's of men" (i.e. human women) as wives... then much of Enoch of far easier to accept.

And by the way, Enoch isn't the only non-biblical book quoted. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls are quoted often by Paul.

 

[Sanoy]

I am not aware of its use for flat earth so I can't speak to that. (One should wonder why science is not being employed) I am aware of its use regarding Nephilim though.

Genesis 6 refers to a larger body of content that it does not label. We can use secondary sources, like this, to inform ourselves of what the Jews believed about a subject. It's not scripture in that regard, but it is vitally informative. That said, the book of Enoch is inseparable from scripture because it is quoted in Jude. Not just quoted, it is quoted as prophecy, which defines it as scripture. The problem is that the book we have is a compilation, so we cannot take the first page to confirm the rest.

There are several reasons to hold some credence to the first section. It gives us a foundation for the goat for Azazel ritual. It gives us a definition of demon, it gives us a foundation for understanding Genesis 6, it accords with other accounts in the ANE, some of the church fathers believed in its authenticity, Paul uses the generic nephilim content (head covering), and the author declares that the book is for the generation living in the last days.

There are a lot of good reasons for a Christian to read and understand the first section. Whether the first section is scripture or not is uncertain, but it is certain that it contains scripture because the author of Jude calls a portion of the first section prophecy.

 

[Dkh587]

I don’t accept the book of Enoch as scripture. I don’t think we need it to understand the scriptures.

And in regards to the flat earth, you don’t even need the book of Enoch to make a case that the earth is flat. You can use the Bible to do that.

The Bible teaches that the universe is centered around the earth.

So-called “science” teaches that the universe is centered around the sun. Who are you gonna believe?

 

[Dave-W]

Is there any evidence of this book before the 2nd century BC?

No. In fact the last section "watchers" was most likely written in the early first century ad.

 

[Dave-W]

So-called “science” teaches that the universe is centered around the sun. Who are you gonna believe?

Not really. The solar system is centered on the sun. But the sun and planets of our solar system are orbiting the center of the Milky Way galaxy. The galaxy is moving as well. Astronomy has us at no center of anything.

 

[Dave-W]

And in regards to the flat earth, you don’t even need the book of Enoch to make a case that the earth is flat. You can use the Bible to do that.

In fact, most flat-earthers are unaware of the book of Enoch; at least of its contents if not its existence.

 

[HTacianas]

Several members of this forum have relied on the Book of Enoch as a source of truth regarding the word "Nephilim".

The book is included by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Some have also insisted that the earth is really flat, based on what is written in the Book of Enoch.
Most of us who have an interest in astronomy would totally reject the "Flat Earth" concept as ridiculous, based on our modern understanding of the universe.

Please include comments here for or against using this book in our discussion of Eschatology.

Is there any evidence of this book before the 2nd century BC?

.

The problem with the book of Enoch is that it isn't a single book. It is several books haphazardly spliced together. It is unknown exactly which book is qoted in the new testament. Was it the entire book or only one of the books that make it up.

It's worth reading but it's difficult to tell what parts are valid.

 

[Dkh587]

Not really. The solar system is centered on the sun. But the sun and planets of our solar system are orbiting the center of the Milky Way galaxy. The galaxy is moving as well. Astronomy has us at no center of anything.

The point is, the scriptures and so-called “science” teach different and opposing concepts.

 

[BABerean2]

So-called “science” teaches that the universe is centered around the sun. Who are you gonna believe?

I have never heard of any modern astronomer who has made the claim above.

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[SkyWriting]

Several members of this forum have relied on the Book of Enoch as a source of truth regarding the word "Nephilim".

The book is included by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Some have also insisted that the earth is really flat, based on what is written in the Book of Enoch.
Most of us who have an interest in astronomy would totally reject the "Flat Earth" concept as ridiculous, based on our modern understanding of the universe.

.

The earth is pretty flat for most people. And 99.9% for the rest of us.

 

[Foxfyre]

Several members of this forum have relied on the Book of Enoch as a source of truth regarding the word "Nephilim".

The book is included by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

Some have also insisted that the earth is really flat, based on what is written in the Book of Enoch.
Most of us who have an interest in astronomy would totally reject the "Flat Earth" concept as ridiculous, based on our modern understanding of the universe.

Please include comments here for or against using this book in our discussion of Eschatology.

Is there any evidence of this book before the 2nd century BC?

.

IMO the Bible is a collection of manuscripts written by humans and that reports their understanding of the one true God as they experienced and/or believed it. And the wise Bible scholar differentiates between the history, law, wisdom sayings, prophecy, poetry, allegory, parable, symbolism, theological statements, etc. within the context in which they were written. If we do not read the scriptures through the eyes of those who wrote them and insist that they be interpreted through 20th or 21st Century experience and understanding, we're not going to be accurate in a lot of our interpretations.

(Edit: That is not to be interpreted that I do not see the Bible as God's book and inspired by God.)

There is a broad sampling of statements on eschatology throughout the Old and New Testaments and only by straining at gnats can a scholarly theologian not see that they cannot make a strong case for exactly how all that will come to pass. Even Jesus said no one knows when all that will happen. I believe Him.

And as for Enoch, neither the ancient Jews who canonized the Old Testament to preserve it from contamination by other beliefs or the Christians who chose the New Testament manuscripts to be included in the Bible were secure enough in the authorship and/or accuracy of the Apochryphal manuscripts to trust them as authoritative. But because they did include some historical and useful information, they are included in an Apochrypha section in the Bibles used in the Roman Catholic Church and some other orthodox traditions.

Jude appears to have quoted very briefly from Enoch, but that is pretty much the extent of Enoch's authority in the orthodox Jewish faith and the early Church.

As for the flat earthers, I respect the faith of those who believe it. I don't believe it myself. And there we are.

 

[sdowney717]

You don't need to use Enoch to support a scriptural unmoving stationary flat earth.
Psalm 104:5
You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,

Earth has ends
Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

Earth 'floats' on the waters of the great deep. where did Noah's flood come from? Rain and the great deep under the earth.
Psalm 136:6
To Him who laid out the earth above the waters, For His mercy endures forever;

Earth has been set on supporting pillars.
Earth is a place not people. Some have said the 'pillars' are world leaders. That seems a stretch to me.

1 Samuel 2
“The Lord kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
And lifts the beggar from the ash heap,
To set them among princes
And make them inherit the throne of glory.

“For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s,
And He has set the world upon them.

So then the earth is like a table with legs extending into the great deep as foundational support columns, just like a building, they drive piles into the earth.

 

[SeventyOne]

In Matthew, we see the response from Jesus to the Sadducees:

Matthew 22:29-30 But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

He calls the source of that answer 'scripture', and the source of that answer is Enoch 15. Take from that what you will.

 

[BABerean2]

You don't need to use Enoch to support a scriptural unmoving stationary flat earth.

No. You would need to destroy all of the physics, and astronomy, and earth science books and photographs, to accomplish that goal.

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[sdowney717]

No. You would need to destroy all of the physics, and astronomy, and earth science books and photographs, to accomplish that goal.

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I thought we were discussing scriptures to support a flat stationary earth? We do not need any of Enoch's scriptures to do this. And in Genesis, sun moon and stars and planets are all just glorified lights made to provide light on to the earth.

The sun and moon stopped, the vault of the heavens ceased to move over the flat earth.
If the earth had suddenly stopped, everyone would have been killed as the earth has a supposedly physical motion. The earth would have been destroyed. But if the heavens are just angelic stars, then they could stop without affecting the earth.

Joshua 10:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon;
And Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
And the moon stopped,
Till the people had revenge
Upon their enemies.

Is this not written in the Book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day. 14 And there has been no day like that, before it or after it, that the Lord heeded the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.

 

[jgr]

You don't need to use Enoch to support a scriptural unmoving stationary flat earth.
Psalm 104:5
You who laid the foundations of the earth, So that it should not be moved forever,

Earth has ends
Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth; He makes lightning for the rain; He brings the wind out of His treasuries.

Earth 'floats' on the waters of the great deep. where did Noah's flood come from? Rain and the great deep under the earth.
Psalm 136:6
To Him who laid out the earth above the waters, For His mercy endures forever;

Earth has been set on supporting pillars.
Earth is a place not people. Some have said the 'pillars' are world leaders. That seems a stretch to me.

1 Samuel 2
“The Lord kills and makes alive;
He brings down to the grave and brings up.
7 The Lord makes poor and makes rich;
He brings low and lifts up.
8 He raises the poor from the dust
And lifts the beggar from the ash heap,
To set them among princes
And make them inherit the throne of glory.

“For the pillars of the earth are the Lord’s,
And He has set the world upon them.

So then the earth is like a table with legs extending into the great deep as foundational support columns, just like a building, they drive piles into the earth.

This would imply that the earth does not rotate, and therefore that Scripture's numerous references to sunrise and sunset mean that the sun is revolving around the earth, as believed by the apostate medieval church. Is that accurate?

 

[sdowney717]

This would imply that the earth does not rotate, and therefore that Scripture's numerous references to sunrise and sunset mean that the sun is revolving around the earth, as believed by the apostate medieval church. Is that accurate?

Yes, sun moon stars all rotating about a fixed stationary earth, and is the best model to fit what the scriptures say.

This also agrees with all early cosmologies of many cultures and nations.

 

[BABerean2]

Yes, sun moon stars all rotating about a fixed stationary earth, and is the best model to fit what the scriptures say.

This also agrees with all early cosmologies of many cultures and nations.

I believe we had a discussion recently about the sun producing its energy through the process of nuclear fusion.

Christ uses the word "star" as a symbol of "angels" in the Book of Revelation, in the same way that the word "dragon" is used as a symbol of Satan.

That does not mean that Satan is a giant flying lizard.

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