Is ellen white a prophet? does it matter

[Adventtruth]

But there are specific individuals who have made up their minds on certain topics, not only still professing to be Adventists, but proclaiming their objections to the Adventist faith to other non-Adventists! This is what I am totally against.

I have made up my mind concerning 1844 and EGW. I just can't reconcile the traditional view of 1844 with the bible anymore. And according to what EGW said about acceptance of her ministry, no middle ground, then I can't believe she is a prophet in regard to what the church teaches. But what am i to do? I know I can't join another denomination with what they teach. I love people and enjoy worship. I too understand, that no church has the total truth. Now if any one ask me about what I believe, I am not going to lie, and yes others in the Adventist Faith know what I believe and they still accept me as an Adventist brother.

Again to clarify: If yourself or anyone else comes to a conclusive point in your search that anything concerning Adventism is false, then in my opinion you should dismember immediately.

Please show me from the bible this idea of yours. Just because I don't believe in 1844 or EGW I should leave??? Now how would that bring glory to God. What horendous sin is there in not believing as you do on these matters that I should just leave.

Nothing but the sanctuary doctrine distinguishes us from the rest of Christianity. And of course, no other doctrine gets attacked more intensely; not even the Sabbath. Either we have a specific end-time message to bring to the world, or we do not

I remember before I rejected 1844 and EGW and the whole entimes message to the world, I prided myself in the fact that we where different. Many others also took pride in that fact. I hope that is not your motivation.

and we preach the same 'love love love' message that can be found in any other denomination.

Well I've been in this church about 20 years , and different Adventist churches in different states and I very seldom here a love message, a gopel message...All I truely hear is the law being preached. Here in the congragation I am now apart of, all I hear is what we should do...which is the law without the gospel being preached. Oh yes, I have prayed about this thing, and I feel the Lord wants me to stay put. I do love the people there and there are other things about the body of believers there that keeps me happy. I don't have to get my spiritual food from there, I get that from other sources but I do love the people. We have bible studies after Sabbath and they are great. There is also a group of us that go to Barnes and Noble after sunset every three weeks and have bible study out in the open. Others come around and listen and some even join in. Its great.

Adventtruth

 

[Cliff2]

Well I kind of had problems with the IJ, like I didn't exactly know where its basis was in the Bible. But like 2 weeks ago I talked with about it with my pastor, and he said pretty much the same thing as Cliff2.

Another example was Cain after he killed Abel, God checked it out.

Anyways he had a lot of good things to say, gave me some food for thought. (DanPev)

The Bible is full of similar stories, take Abraham. The angel came to him and talked with him about Lot and the saving of Sodom and Gomorrah, read about it in Genesis 18 & 19.

So why is it necessary for God to have an investigation when He knows everything?

That is the question that is always asked and very few will give an answer that will satisfy those who want to know.

A number of years ago now I heard a minister (Pr Geoff Youlden) give me an answer that did satisfy me.

It is all to do with the sin problem that God has on His hands and has had on His hands ever since Lucifer sinned in heaven.

Why didn't God wipe Lucifer out right then and there.

There would be no more sin, if you see the results as swift as that you would not want to sin and follow in the footsteps of what had just happeend to your favourite angel, Lucifer.

But what about next year? You still would not sin. But say in one million years time and multiply that by another million you would be so far away from when Lucifer was done away with that perhaps the thought that God was what Lucifer claimed to be was right after all.

The sin problem would never have been solved by doing away with Lucifer. God had to be open and transparent for all of the angels and being in the other worlds to see that He was just and true.

It is exactly the same now, God has to be open and transparent for all to see why Mrs X who was the best Church worker in a certain Church has ever had is not in heaven.

The question will be asked why. The records are there for all to see why. The sin problem will be taken care of forever. Never again will God's judgment be questioned. The motives will be laid out on thew table for all to see.

Mr Y is also not there after being an Elder and leader in the local Church. The reason being is that Mr Y had hidden sins that only God knew about.

As Pr Geoff went onto explain that God's judgment will be there for all to see and His character will be vindicated.

Sure God knows everything and He could have as it were just made a statement that a some are in and others are out.

God would never make a mistake with the judgment but if such a judgment was made like that there would remain doubts at to why Mrs X and Mr Y are not there and perhaps the sin problem would not be fixed after all.

The way that God will conduct the judgment will mean that the sin problem will be fixed forever.

I went away from that meeting with a far better understanding of the judgment than I had before.

For all the technical details I cannot go past a book "1844 Made Simple" by Clifford Goldstein.

He had these very same problems that we have looked at here and he said if he could not get 1844 out of the Bible and the Bible only then he was finished with Adventism.

So he locked himself away for a number of weeks and looked at what the Bible alone said and came away with the belief that 1844 is very Biblical.

If any have doubts about 1844, get his book it is cheap and a very good read.

 

[Adventtruth]

If any have doubts about 1844, get his book it is cheap and a very good read.

I purchased his book in the 90's hot off the press. Today I am a non believer in 1844.

Adventtruth

 

[Sophia7]

I've always asked myself: what is the need for jewelry? I know that when I get to heaven, God will give me a crown full of jewels, that I will not have to pay $5000 for

If I recall correctly there was an interesting point brought up by OntheDL about jewelry and why it has significance with respect to the sanctuary service, and Yom Kippur. Maybe you could ask him to tell you again, I can't quite remember specifically. But it did stick in my mind.

I do: "Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments." 1 Timothy 2:9

I also believe God wants you to hear this; literally just now as I am reading over some passages to do with jewelry, I come across Isaiah 3:13- 4:6. Not only do we see God standing 'to judge the people', but we see the women of Israel being stripped of all their 'bracelets, veils...' after which those who 'remain' (the remnant) will be called 'holy' - 'everyone who is recorded (in the books!) for life in (the New) Jerusalem'!!!! Wow! Can you see what I'm seeing?!

I don't want to take this thread completely off topic, but I want to address this since I was asked about my problems with certain Adventist doctrines. In the text that you mentioned, Isaiah 3, God said that He would take away all of their ornaments because they had sinned and oppressed the poor. The Bible doesn't say that the jewelry itself was evil but only that it was stripped from them as a punishment for their sins. God also said in this passage that He was going to take away their hair and their clothing, but we wouldn't conclude from this that we should all be bald and wear sackcloth. At least I hope not!

If you look at all of the references to jewelry in the Bible, most of them are positive. Here are a few examples. In Genesis 24, Abraham's servant gave Rebekah a nose ring and bracelets and other jewelry. In Song of Solomon, the bride's beauty is compared to jewels, and she wears jewels as well. Isaiah 54 speaks of God's people as His bride being called back to Him and His city being rebuilt with jewels. Isaiah 61 speaks of a bride adorning herself with jewels. Jeremiah 2:32 asks, "Does a maiden forget her jewelry, a bride her wedding ornaments? Yet my people have forgotten me, days without number." Ezekiel 16 compares Jerusalem to a woman that God lavished with jewels. The problem was that she became enamored with her own beauty and turned her jewels into idols; the jewels themselves are not described in a negative light but as a positive gift from God to His chosen bride. Zechariah 9 speaks of God's people sparkling like jewels in a crown. Even the tabernacle was adorned with gold and rich fabrics and the priestly garments with gems (Ex. 25). Revelation portrays the New Jerusalem as filled with gold and precious gems. I just don't get the idea from any of this that God hates jewelry.

On the other hand, Jeremiah 4 speaks metaphorically of a devastated woman adorning herself in vain (in vain because she has been unfaithful to God). In Exodus 32, the Israelites made the golden calf out of their earrings, and in chapter 33, they were forced to take off their ornaments because they had worshiped the idol. Judges 8 describes how Gideon made an idol out of the gold earrings that he took from part of the plunder after defeating the Midianites. In all of these examples, the sin was not in the jewelry itself; it was in what was done with it. When it was taken away, it was a punishment for their sins.

What I see is that the overwhelming evidence from the Bible shows that the wearing of jewelry is not viewed as sinful, even by God, as long as it doesn't become an idol or an obsession. In the New Testament we find a couple of texts that Adventists use to proof-text the jewelry doctrine:

1 Peter 3:3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4 Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight.

1 Timothy 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

First of all, not many Adventists object to women braiding their hair. Most Adventist women that I know wear makeup as well (I do myself) although the Church Manual condemns cosmetics as "not in keeping with good taste" (p. 177). As for costly clothing, Ellen White said that women should buy expensive clothing because it would last longer. People pick out the parts of this that they like and ignore the rest, like 1 Tim. 2:8, which says that men should lift up holy hands in prayer. And when it comes to verses 11-12, telling women to be silent in church and not to have authority over men, well, then we interpret those as cultural. If the part about women is cultural, then why not the part about jewelry? Where is our hermeneutical consistency?

I believe that these texts are talking about focusing on our inward characters and not getting caught up in our physical appearances. True beauty comes from within, not from outward adornment. That does not, however, mean that all jewelry is evil. It means that we should not depend on it to make us beautiful. I just do not believe that the weight of biblical evidence supports a complete prohibition of jewelry.

Now, I personally don't wear any jewelry anymore. I used to when I was in high school and took it off when I went to college but only because that was the school policy. This is one belief on which I have never been convicted. However, I don't even have a desire to wear jewelry anymore (other than a wedding band so that other people know that I am married) because I don't see the point of spending money on it. Certainly, if I were to wear jewelry, it would be cheap. However, I do not believe, based on the biblical evidence, that I can tell other people that they are sinning if they wear jewelry.

Finally, I have a problem with the way some Adventists think they're living in a godly way because they don't wear jewelry or makeup, but they buy luxury cars and build expensive houses. I think there are principles here that go way beyond jewelry that we often miss because we are so caught up in legalistic lifestyle restrictions.

 

[Cliff2]

Finally, I have a problem with the way some Adventists think they're living in a godly way because they don't wear jewelry or makeup, but they buy luxury cars and build expensive houses. I think there are principles here that go way beyond jewelry that we often miss because we are so caught up in legalistic lifestyle restrictions. (Sophia7)

Very true, for myself I do not ware a wedding ring. I suppose the reason being is that is the way I was brought up.

So much time can be spent on this subject and it will probably not change anyones point of view.

 

[Adventtruth]

Very true, for myself I do not ware a wedding ring. I suppose the reason being is that is the way I was brought up.

So much time can be spent on this subject and it will probably not change anyones point of view.

Then again, some may rethink their positions considering the evidence she presented from the bible. I think some times we can't see the whole picture because instead of searching the bible ourselves, we just take what was told us, on faith.

During ten commandment day we where given the ten commandment book put out by 3ABN to pass out. I read the book first to make sure I greed with what was said in the book. One Adventist brother asked my why read the book, that the Elders had already read the book and there was no need to read it. This is the kind of thinking that leads us to mis-understand what the bible is saying for ourselves.

Adventtruth

 

[Jon0388g]

I have made up my mind concerning 1844 and EGW. I just can't reconcile the traditional view of 1844 with the bible anymore. And according to what EGW said about acceptance of her ministry, no middle ground, then I can't believe she is a prophet in regard to what the church teaches.

Please show me from the bible this idea of yours.

I did in fact say that it was my opinion that you should leave any church that you feel has false teachings contrary to the Bible. What is not of God, is of Satan.

You want Scripture? Sure;

"...and whatever is not from faith, is sin." Romans 14:23

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26

I am not saying that it shoudn't be hard to leave. Especially if you have been raised in Adventism. But, for me, I do not see how it is glorifying God to stay when your own convictions can cause others to lose faith totally.

I remember before I rejected 1844 and EGW and the whole entimes message to the world, I prided myself in the fact that we where different. Many others also took pride in that fact. I hope that is not your motivation.

Nope.

Well I've been in this church about 20 years , and different Adventist churches in different states and I very seldom here a love message, a gopel message...All I truely hear is the law being preached.

Come to my church sometime




My point is this; if we do not believe that the Adventist church is the remnant church of God, then it would be totally justifiable for us to join a Catholic/Messianic/Mormon church. What's the difference with 97% truth, and 10%? As long as we get our spiritual food, the remaining 3% Bible-contradiction doesn't matter. Is that what we are saying?

J

 

[Jon0388g]

In the text that you mentioned, Isaiah 3, God said that He would take away all of their ornaments because they had sinned and oppressed the poor. The Bible doesn't say that the jewelry itself was evil but only that it was stripped from them as a punishment for their sins. God also said in this passage that He was going to take away their hair and their clothing, but we wouldn't conclude from this that we should all be bald and wear sackcloth. At least I hope not!

Lol, true, but Paul also says that 'if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her..." So again, the hair (natural) is a glory to a woman, but women in those days were embroidering all sorts of jewels and ornaments into their hair. This is what Isaiah is talking about, God was going to rip it out lol.

If God has already given a woman her glory, why the need for more? And this extra glory won't come from God - it is the woman's choice to wear jewelry.

If you look at all of the references to jewelry in the Bible, most of them are positive.

I just don't get the idea from any of this that God hates jewelry.

Very good point. He doesn't. God made diamonds. But have we met our groom yet? Is the marriage ceremony yet? Who is to adorn us with jewels? Ourselves, or our Heavenly Father?

What I see is that the overwhelming evidence from the Bible shows that the wearing of jewelry is not viewed as sinful, even by God, as long as it doesn't become an idol or an obsession.

And when it comes to verses 11-12, telling women to be silent in church and not to have authority over men, well, then we interpret those as cultural. If the part about women is cultural, then why not the part about jewelry? Where is our hermeneutical consistency?

Again, good point. Do you feel that we are to take that verse as normative?

You must consider also that is this teaching "contradicting God's Word' or is it one of those issues that we may still find 'new light' on? There is a large difference between this and outright error.

Finally, I have a problem with the way some Adventists think they're living in a godly way because they don't wear jewelry or makeup, but they buy luxury cars and build expensive houses. I think there are principles here that go way beyond jewelry that we often miss because we are so caught up in legalistic lifestyle restrictions.

Let's not base our decisions on the Adventist faith on what Pastor Bob chooses to drive to church or the house he lives in. Whether he is a hypocrite or not is irrelevant.


What were your thoughts on the rest of my post?

J

 

[Adventtruth]

You want Scripture? Sure;

"...and whatever is not from faith, is sin." Romans 14:23

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins," Hebrews 10:26

The verses you have provided has nothing to do with me sinning because I attend the Adventist Church. I attend the Adventist church in good faith...in Christ, not in a church body as you do. And the passage in Hebrews certainly has nothing to do with me attending the Adventist church.

You are grasping for straws my friend becasue you can't come up with one justifiable reason from the bible to kick me out of the Adventist Church. You have cut two passages away from their context to prove a faulty point. This is a straw man Jon. Proof texting is harmful for you in that it shows you are being very judgmental here. The very Chapter you used (Romans 14) ask why must you judge your brother. So why are you Jon???

I am not saying that it shoudn't be hard to leave. Especially if you have been raised in Adventism. But, for me, I do not see how it is glorifying God to stay when your own convictions can cause others to lose faith totally.

If you think my staying in the Adventist fellowship is not glorifying God, then you must not know God. I cause none to stumble as you have set yourself up as a stumbling block to me. If you think I am in the wrong, why tell me to leave that I may be lost, instead of trying to win me back??? WOW, I now see your true colors. Where is all the love you have learned in you church that preaches the gospel??? Why did you not be obedient to Gal 6:1??? If any ask me what I think about 1844 or EGW I tell them what I believe. I don't go shouting this sort of thing from the roof tops.

I even spoke with my pastor of the church about 1844 and he asked me not to leave the church, but you tell me to leave. Some christian love you have...do you suppose you have glorified you Father who is in heaven by asking a fellow follower in Christ to leave the church? I have done no grevious sin such as the Corinthians. I just can't reconcile 1844 and sonme statements from EGW, from the bible, and you said I have sinned becasue of this. WOW!

My point is this; if we do not believe that the Adventist church is the remnant church of God, then it would be totally justifiable for us to join a Catholic/Messianic/Mormon church. What's the difference with 97% truth, and 10%? As long as we get our spiritual food, the remaining 3% Bible-contradiction doesn't matter. Is that what we are saying?

What you are saying is that if a person is not Adventist then they wont be saved becasue the Adventist church with her doctrins is infallable.

J[/quote]

 

[Sophia7]

Lol, true, but Paul also says that 'if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her..." So again, the hair (natural) is a glory to a woman, but women in those days were embroidering all sorts of jewels and ornaments into their hair. This is what Isaiah is talking about, God was going to rip it out lol.

If God has already given a woman her glory, why the need for more? And this extra glory won't come from God - it is the woman's choice to wear jewelry.

Very good point. He doesn't. God made diamonds. But have we met our groom yet? Is the marriage ceremony yet? Who is to adorn us with jewels? Ourselves, or our Heavenly Father?

Again, good point. Do you feel that we are to take that verse as normative?

You must consider also that is this teaching "contradicting God's Word' or is it one of those issues that we may still find 'new light' on? There is a large difference between this and outright error.

Let's not base our decisions on the Adventist faith on what Pastor Bob chooses to drive to church or the house he lives in. Whether he is a hypocrite or not is irrelevant.

What were your thoughts on the rest of my post?

J

My decisions are based on what the Bible says, and I disagree with you on what the Bible says about this You are interpreting the Bible to fit Adventist doctrine, rather than reading it for what it says. We have already discussed some of the other topics, such as the IJ, at length in other threads. Here's the thing: I understand all of the Adventist arguments on these issues. I've been an Adventist for 35 years (my whole life); I attended Adventist church schools and a fairly conservative Adventist college; I've been a pastor's wife for nine years; I've helped my husband do Bible studies with people; I've read many Ellen White books; I've studied the arguments of traditional Adventist theologians. I know all of the Adventist talking points. I've used many of them myself. This is not an issue of my not understanding Adventist doctrines; I just have come to believe that some of them are not supported by the Bible.

Many Adventists have the idea that if people don't agree with them on doctrine, it's because they really don't understand what the Bible says. I don't know how many times I've heard church members say something like, "Oh, if only all of those [poor ignorant] Sunday-keepers would actually read their Bibles, they would see the truth about the Sabbath [or the state of the dead or the IJ or unclean meats, etc.]." The truth is that people can be devout Christians who study their Bibles with an open mind and pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit to discern spiritual truths yet still disagree with Adventist doctrines.

My point is that I am not going to be convinced by all of these arguments that I have already heard many times before. I truly do understand them, but I disagree with some of them, based on my study of the Bible. I am going to keep studying, but I am going to take a break from debating these things here so much because it is not productive and may put a stumbling block in someone else's way.

Back to the main subject of the thread, the OP asked if Ellen White was a prophet. My answer is still that I don't know, but I am leaning toward no. Does it matter? Yes. However, I am not going to leave the Adventist Church unless I find another church that I believe is more in accordance with biblical teachings. Given a choice between 97% truth and 10% truth, I'll take 97% (though I would probably lower the Adventist percentage a bit). No church is right about everything. And, no, I do not believe that the Adventist Church is equivalent to the remnant of Bible prophecy. Some Adventists will be part of the remnant, but I believe that the remnant will be made up of all true believers in Christ.

 

[Jon0388g]

The verses you have provided has nothing to do with me sinning because I attend the Adventist Church. I attend the Adventist church in good faith...in Christ, not in a church body as you do.

Firstly, please do not bear false witness against me. I do hope you are attending in good faith, as we all should be. All I am asking is how you can do that whilst not agreeing with certain doctrine the church holds. To me, that seems like we can attend a Baptist Church in good faith also, even if we disagree on the Sabbath.

Also, the verses I quoted plainly say that 'whatever is not of faith, is sin.' No matter the context, it has no bearing on a general statement like this one.

You are grasping for straws my friend becasue you can't come up with one justifiable reason from the bible to kick me out of the Adventist Church.

You seem to be getting the wrong idea. I do not want to kick you out. Who am I to do that? I try to say what I feel in a Christ-like manner, I hope I am not offending you.

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgement on his opinions." Romans 14:1

It just seems that you are uncomfortable by my saying that one should not be attending a church in which they do not believe has truth. What do you do in church when there is a sermon on the IJ?

I am noticing many changes happening in the SDA church myself. Just the other week I had a horrible experience in the Advent Centre (the main SDA church of London), where I literally had to leave the service because I could feel the presence of evil. Some real blasphemy was being preached from the pulpit. I won't go into details, but I know full well that I couldn't stay put. That is the second time I have had to walk out of church because of evil influences. The Lord and the devil do nothing in partnership.

The only thing that doesn't stop me leaving Adventism is that I know that on these occasions they are outright going against traditional Adventist teachings. If these ideas became integrated into Adventism as a whole, I would dismember. That is where I am coming from.

You have cut two passages away from their context to prove a faulty point. This is a straw man Jon. Proof texting is harmful for you in that it shows you are being very judgmental here. The very Chapter you used (Romans 14) ask why must you judge your brother. So why are you Jon???

Again, I apologise if it is coming across that way. Yes, Romans 14 deals with not judging your brother, and I am not judging you. However, Paul is not saying we must allow our brothers to continue doing wrong. If we love each other, we try to save each other, agreed?

Does Paul contradict himself then by saying in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13:

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

Of course not: "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness..." Galatians 6:1

If you think my staying in the Adventist fellowship is not glorifying God, then you must not know God. I cause none to stumble as you have set yourself up as a stumbling block to me.

It is not even about you glorifying God or not. I can agree totally with all Adventist doctrine and still put God to shame. It is about how you in yourself can remain Adventist and hold disbelief.

And yes, I do think you can cause people to stumble if there are people believing wholeheartedly that they have found the true church of God, and they find within it some who go totally against that. I know a family who joined the Adventist church because they fully believe that this is the true church of the Lord. They have gone years and years searching through different churches, Catholic, Pentecostal, even Mormon, but still knew in themselves that they did not belong in a church they knew had false doctrine. Now, tell me if they spoke to you and found out even a professed Adventist believes that we hold false doctrine, that would not be a stumbling block?!


Do not take my words the wrong way. I am totally convinced that we cannot be half-baked in whatever we do. God Himself prefers us to be hot or cold. Never lukewarm.

God Bless
J

 

[Adventtruth]

Firstly, please do not bear false witness against me.

No one is lying on you.

All I am asking is how you can do that whilst not agreeing with certain doctrine the church holds. To me, that seems like we can attend a Baptist Church in good faith also, even if we disagree on the Sabbath.

No one has to believe every doctrine a denomination holds to. Weather Chirst entered behind the veil in 1844 or at His acension has no baring on a believers salvation what so ever. One can attend any church he pleases, we should not push what we think is truth onto others who don't see it your way.

Also, the verses I quoted plainly say that 'whatever is not of faith, is sin.' No matter the context, it has no bearing on a general statement like this one.

Ok Jon...I'l give you a shot and a way out. What sin am I committing by attending the Adventist church? I'l love to hear this one...kindly enlighten me please. Oh and please dont tell me by not believing in 1844 as you do and EGW as you do while attending this church, becasue that is not sin, or that I took an vow that said I do because I did about 20 years ago. But that has changed...oh and BTW the pastor asked me to stay...so what sin am I in violation of???

You seem to be getting the wrong idea. I do not want to kick you out. Who am I to do that? I try to say what I feel in a Christ-like manner, I hope I am not offending you.

You are not offending me, because I am secure in my relationship with our Lord...nothing you could do to offend me.

I am not getting the wrong idea...you said it was your opionion that those who don't hold to every truth should dismember immediately. Thats like kicking them out if you had the chance....If you were the pastor you would. Even by suggesting such shows what manner of character you have.

"Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgement on his opinions." Romans 14:1

Oh now those who dont believe like you are weak in faith!!! You show no tact what so ever, sugesting such nonsence. What you are doing is dispalying much arrogance!

It just seems that you are uncomfortable by my saying that one should not be attending a church in which they do not believe has truth.

Is this where I say not to not bear false witness against me as you did? I never said they had no truth! All I said is that I don't believe in 1844 and EGW.

What do you do in church when there is a sermon on the IJ?

I bear it. Love bears all thing. I have heard the Adventist understanding for years, after all I once believed it aswel. Its not going to kill me to listen and check my bible to see if these things be true as the sermon is being preached.

I am noticing many changes happening in the SDA church myself. Just the other week I had a horrible experience in the Advent Centre (the main SDA church of London), where I literally had to leave the service because I could feel the presence of evil. Some real blasphemy was being preached from the pulpit. I won't go into details, but I know full well that I couldn't stay put. That is the second time I have had to walk out of church because of evil influences. The Lord and the devil do nothing in partnership.

Well good for you.

The only thing that doesn't stop me leaving Adventism is that I know that on these occasions they are outright going against traditional Adventist teachings. If these ideas became integrated into Adventism as a whole, I would dismember. That is where I am coming from.

pm me and tell me what the problem is?

Again, I apologise if it is coming across that way. Yes, Romans 14 deals with not judging your brother, and I am not judging you. However, Paul is not saying we must allow our brothers to continue doing wrong. If we love each other, we try to save each other, agreed?

Ageed. and if I offended you please kindly forgive me aswel. There is never a time when we should be nasty to one another. Christ died for us all.

Does Paul contradict himself then by saying in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13:

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

Of course not: "Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness..." Galatians 6:1

The issue in 1 Cor 5 is a lot different than me not believeing in 1844 and EGW. The issue in 1Cor is about a fornicator to which Paul warned to stay away from and not have fellowship with. Yes in those cases we must make a judgment call.

It is not even about you glorifying God or not. I can agree totally with all Adventist doctrine and still put God to shame. It is about how you in yourself can remain Adventist and hold disbelief.

You are the one who started the issue about glorifing God. I think you ar being a little legalistic and judgmental here once again. I just don't turn away from people becasue I dont think they have the total truth. Have you considered your relationship to God and what He did to save you??? you walked in darkness but He never left you. Have you recieved the grace and Love of God into your heart??? Do you have not compassion??? If so, then how can you even think such thoughts!!!

And yes, I do think you can cause people to stumble if there are people believing wholeheartedly that they have found the true church of God, and they find within it some who go totally against that. I know a family who joined the Adventist church because they fully believe that this is the true church of the Lord. They have gone years and years searching through different churches, Catholic, Pentecostal, even Mormon, but still knew in themselves that they did not belong in a church they knew had false doctrine. Now, tell me if they spoke to you and found out even a professed Adventist believes that we hold false doctrine, that would not be a stumbling block?!

Maybe and maybe not. It depends on the person. I don't have the power to save anyone nor do I send any to hell. Issues like these people have to deal with themselves. All I know is that Jesus did not go behind the veil in 1844, and that EGW made some false statements that can't be found in scripture. God is the potter and we are the clay...He has some fitted for destuction and some for glory. Which are you!

Do not take my words the wrong way. I am totally convinced that we cannot be half-baked in whatever we do. God Himself prefers us to be hot or cold. Never lukewarm.

First you apologise and then you continue to make judgment calls. what kind of tree are you Jon?

Adventtruth

 

[Sophia7]

I have to agree with Adventtruth that it is not a sin to disagree with Adventist doctrine or to remain an Adventist despite a few theological disagreements. Quoting Romans 14 is really inappropriate here. It is extremely condescending and self-righteous to apply it in this manner. My faith in Christ is not at all weak. It is my faith in the Adventist Church that is weak. The two are not synonymous.

 

[Dathen]

As long your faith in the word and God remains that is good, because the church does have bad points and troubles...

 

[Cliff2]

As long your faith in the word and God remains that is good, because the church does have bad points and troubles...

As long as I am a member of the Church, then the Church is never going to be perfect.

I would imagine there are many others that fall into the same lot.

 

[Dathen]

Amen....We all have problems..That's why we are called SINNERS....

 

[Cliff2]

Amen....We all have problems..That's why we are called SINNERS....

That is why we need a Saviour.

That is why Christianity is the only true religion because as Christians we have a Saviour that has an empty tomb.

 

[Dathen]

Amen.