Is Culling the Herd Sound Theology?

[bodhitree]

I have yet another question,

I understand the need to weed out all the bad people and non-believers. Hellfire is motivation to not go astray, and it makes the reward for those who are good all that much better. Heaven needs a hell or it wont really be heaven (this is not necessarily true, but I understand why there is the dichotomy, it make sense).

My question is though, will it really be heaven if so many people are perishing? I mean, if one just goes through the catalog of those they know, a good portion of them might be burning, and if they are all thats left, standing up with God, is that truly heaven?

Would a mother still be joyous in heaven knowing her son or daughter or husband burned in agony?

Your husband, who you have committed yourself to wholly, murders your children when they make a mistake. Do you still love your husband?

Is heaven really heaven, if we are separated from our loved ones? What is the real reward then in the end, we may just be selfishly saving ourselves?

 

[Bible2]

bodhitree posted in message #1 of this thread:
Is heaven really heaven, if we are separated from our loved ones?

Greetings.

Yes. There is always joy for believers in the presence of Jesus: "Thou
wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at
thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore" (Psalms 16:11).
Believers love Jesus more than even their closest loved ones: "Think
not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against
his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in
law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his
own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not
worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is
not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:34-37); "whosoever he be of you
that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke
14:33); "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and
mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and
his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).

bodhitree:
What is the real reward then in the end

Being in the presence of the Lord Jesus is the reward: "the word of
the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I
am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward" (Genesis 15:1).

bodhitree:
we may just be selfishly saving ourselves?

No one can save themselves apart from faith in the Lord Jesus:
"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name
under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts
4:12). "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life"
(John 14:6). "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be
saved" (Acts 16:31).

 

[drich0150]

When we were very young, we had a very different takes on the world, around us, and a different sets of values that governed who and what we loved.. It even can be said that the way we loved then, and the way we experience love now are two completely different experiences. It's evident in the way we express that love, what we choose to love, in whom we love, and the reasons why we choose to do so. As very Young Children, Love seems to be based on dependence and necessity, we Love our parents by default. You don't love John, and Jane Doe because of the type of people they are when you are 5, you love them because they are your parents.

Now I'm not suggesting that all people grow out of a parent/child relationship like the one they share when they are 5, but most do. When they do, that relationship takes on different dynamics. Love is still expressed, but for different reasons, and in different ways. At 5, to a young man, his mother will be the only woman he will ever need in his life.. Now at 25 the same mother is no longer able to completely fill his needs.. Despite what the young man feels about his mom at 5, and how he thought the world would completely end if he couldn't be with his mom when ever he wanted, at 25 his desires, and his love interests may change or be more focused on what his heart has indicated to be his new primary love intrest...

When The Fullness of God Majesty and Glory is revealed to us, I believe we will experience a change. Kind like the difference between a pre-schooler and someone finishing up a masters program.. When we all get to Heaven, we will be with the one That We Love With All Of Our Hearts, Minds, spirits, And Strength. (With all of our being) Plus our ability to know, and love will also increase. At which point our hearts, will indicate our "new primary love interest." So, it is not if our ability to love our loved ones will be wiped away, it's our ability to Truly love that will be expanded to limits that few know in this life. So while we are in this life, we will continue to love as a 5 year old loves his mother. And when we graduate to the next life, just being in God's presents will place us in a position of greater understanding and assurances that we could ever know here.

But, even so, we are still Commanded to Love God with all of our being first.. Otherwise I don't think you'd have to worry about being in heaven while your family sweats it out in Hell. Even though we are limited in this life. we can ask God to help us learn to love Him as he has commanded us to.. And when we do, our capacity to love in this life will increase. Kinda like the difference between a pre-schooler and a 12th grader.

 

[andreha]

I have yet another question,

I understand the need to weed out all the bad people and non-believers. Hellfire is motivation to not go astray, and it makes the reward for those who are good all that much better. Heaven needs a hell or it wont really be heaven (this is not necessarily true, but I understand why there is the dichotomy, it make sense).

My question is though, will it really be heaven if so many people are perishing? I mean, if one just goes through the catalog of those they know, a good portion of them might be burning, and if they are all thats left, standing up with God, is that truly heaven?

Would a mother still be joyous in heaven knowing her son or daughter or husband burned in agony?

Your husband, who you have committed yourself to wholly, murders your children when they make a mistake. Do you still love your husband?

Is heaven really heaven, if we are separated from our loved ones? What is the real reward then in the end, we may just be selfishly saving ourselves?

God cares for His creation. He doesn't just dump people into hell. He goes after them throughout this life. He draws them close to Him by His Spirit. Some people hear the voice of God in their dying moments, and receive grace. The extent and magnitude of God's love is underestimated regularly. It defies human understanding. God has a way of getting people saved before they die...

 

[ebia]

I have yet another question,

I understand the need to weed out all the bad people and non-believers. Hellfire is motivation to not go astray, and it makes the reward for those who are good all that much better. Heaven needs a hell or it wont really be heaven (this is not necessarily true, but I understand why there is the dichotomy, it make sense).

My question is though, will it really be heaven if so many people are perishing? I mean, if one just goes through the catalog of those they know, a good portion of them might be burning, and if they are all thats left, standing up with God, is that truly heaven?

Would a mother still be joyous in heaven knowing her son or daughter or husband burned in agony?

Your husband, who you have committed yourself to wholly, murders your children when they make a mistake. Do you still love your husband?

Is heaven really heaven, if we are separated from our loved ones? What is the real reward then in the end, we may just be selfishly saving ourselves?

Some clarity of terms is really needed, because strictly speaking heaven and hell are not opposites. Heaven is not "where we go when we die" or even "where we will go when we die". And hell as popularly concieved isn't particularly biblical either.

God's purpose for creation is to put it right. To fix up us and the damage we have caused and to get creation back on track. He did that in principle on Easter morning and it will be consumated at the final resurrection when we will be raised like Jesus to join in that "New Heavens and New Earth", where the veil between heaven and earth is lifted, and God's Kingdom is fully come on earth. That's the proper and historic Christian hope. But that requires evil to be dealt with, and evil runs right through the middle of each one of us. Jesus has dealt with that evil in his crucifixion and resurrection, but we still need to accept that transformation to become part of his Kingdom. Those who refuse that cannot be part of the Kingdom - and that is what "hell" is. God invites all people to get involved in building his Kingdom, but those who decline cannot play "dog in the manger" and hold the rest of creation to ransom forever.

And rather than say heaven and hell are opposites one ought to say heaven and earth are complementary and "hell" is the opposite of the Kingdom of God.

Quite what that "hell" will look like is hard to say - scripture uses metaphors for the fate of those who choose that way. But its the image of God that makes us human - without that image we cease to be human. So perhaps that's how the tension is resolved - ultimately those who refuse to get involved in God's Kingdom of restoration cease to be human and therefore cease to be something who's suffering needs to be pitied.

 

[Van]

Hi Bodhitree,

Much of the difficulty in accepting the gospel of Christ rests upon misconceptions concerning the gospel. Your opening post illustrates this point.

You seem to think "good people" go to heaven, and bad people go to hell. But think about a bad person who accepts Christ on his or her death bed. She has no list of good deeds and so should not be considered a "good person." So the question is why do you think salvation is a matter of being "good" enough?

Next, your question is: "Will it really be heaven with so many people perishing?" The answer of course is yes. The Bible does not say "how" God accomplishes the "no more tears" state of every saved person, so any speculation is simply that - a guess without biblical support. One frequently stated guess is we will not remember unsaved loved ones. But as I said, that is just a guess. So to guess that folks will grieve for the unsaved is unbiblical, because of the "no more tears" description of heaven, such a concern is even more unsound that guessing about selective memory. Bottom line, do not invent problems that are unbiblical. Trust in Jesus.

 

[freeport]

I have yet another question,

I understand the need to weed out all the bad people and non-believers. Hellfire is motivation to not go astray, and it makes the reward for those who are good all that much better. Heaven needs a hell or it wont really be heaven (this is not necessarily true, but I understand why there is the dichotomy, it make sense).

My question is though, will it really be heaven if so many people are perishing? I mean, if one just goes through the catalog of those they know, a good portion of them might be burning, and if they are all thats left, standing up with God, is that truly heaven?

Would a mother still be joyous in heaven knowing her son or daughter or husband burned in agony?

Your husband, who you have committed yourself to wholly, murders your children when they make a mistake. Do you still love your husband?

Is heaven really heaven, if we are separated from our loved ones? What is the real reward then in the end, we may just be selfishly saving ourselves?

Again, all of this doctrine is not sound, you have a lot of confusion about what Scripture teaches.

Anybody can set up what is called "straw man arguments" to knock down.


Yes, I could begin to correct these things, but I find it difficult to do if one already assumes they "know". How does one learn if they do not assume they do not know in the first place?

And that is both Greek (for instance, Socrates) and teaching of Jesus.

 

[childofGod31]

I have yet another question,

I understand the need to weed out all the bad people and non-believers. Hellfire is motivation to not go astray, and it makes the reward for those who are good all that much better. Heaven needs a hell or it wont really be heaven (this is not necessarily true, but I understand why there is the dichotomy, it make sense).

My question is though, will it really be heaven if so many people are perishing? I mean, if one just goes through the catalog of those they know, a good portion of them might be burning, and if they are all thats left, standing up with God, is that truly heaven?

Would a mother still be joyous in heaven knowing her son or daughter or husband burned in agony?

Your husband, who you have committed yourself to wholly, murders your children when they make a mistake. Do you still love your husband?

Is heaven really heaven, if we are separated from our loved ones? What is the real reward then in the end, we may just be selfishly saving ourselves?

We are not saving ourselves. God is saving us. He is plucking a few of the people out of the fire so to speak.

We were made for God. Our destiny is to be God's and to be united with God. This life and relatives are all very temporary. Consider that our loved ones were given to us as "companions" on this train ride. The train ride is taking us home. When we get home, we won't need our companions anymore because we'll have our family there waiting for us.

God has chosen a few people to be saved based on his foreknowledge. I don't know how. And what foreknowledge means exactly in this case. But Jesus also likened the kingdom of heaven to a net full of bad and good fish. The bad was thrown away and the good kept. Somehow, God has His own criteria of who the good fish is and who the bad fish is. And He is keeping the good fish. (It's HIS criteria, so we can't be sure who are the "good" fish really are and why they are considered worth keeping while others are not)

We live in a family. Some of our family members might be the "bad fish" and some might be a good fish.

Jesus said this:

LUK 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters - yes, even his own life - he cannot be my disciple.
27 And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

He obviously didn't mean "hate" in the sense that we think. We are commanded to love even our enemies. Obviously "hate" here is not an emotion. It's an act of comparison. For example, if push comes to shove and you have to choose between God or your family, who will you choose? That's the ones you "love" by action. And the others you "hate" by your action. The ones that are more important to you is the ones you "love". Jesus was saying that God should be more important than earthly family. (Don't get me wrong, we are supposed to take care of our families, it's written in Timothy, this is about choosing and putting someone first).

Also, Jesus said that if you don't take up your cross of self-denial, you are not worthy to be my follower. You are not a real Christian if you don't die to yourself and if you don't start living for God. Because Jesus said:

MAT 7:21 * "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

So, in other words, your ENTIRE life belongs to God. Not to your family, not to yourself, but everything belongs to God. You have been purchased. You are now His possession.

Don't get me wrong, it's an honor and a pleasure to be His possession because He richly blesses and makes happy those who are truly His. There is a song: a prisoner of love. Or an expression: I love to be your captive (referring to love). That's how it is. We love to be His captive of love, because it is with His great love that He captured us and touched our hearts. It's what He gives us - His love. And it brings us utmost joy and satisfies our soul. Why? Because we were made for this union in the first place. It's our destiny: to love Him and to be loved by Him. We are His Bride.

It's not that He is selfish and wants all of you for Himself for selfish purposes. It's for other reasons that He needs to have you all for himself (it's a long subject, but the bottom line - it's good for your soul, it's a method of saving you) Becasue He is love. And Love is not selfish.

But at the same time, we ARE to be called witnesses to those around us and to our loved ones. And we fall short of what God wants us to do when we don't witness (with our life, actions, words...). So by all means, let's not be selfish, and let's witness to the entire world around us. There are many souls that God has chosen according to His foreknowledge and they all need to hear the message of the Gospel so that they can come and be saved.

ROM 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined ...30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

We don't really know the rules by which God will judge the people at the judgement day. It's possible that many of those people who did not know God, did not believe in Christ, will still be saved from destruction, if they lived righteous lives (but won't be chosen for a special destiny or purpose). After all there were many people who lived before Christ came. We really don't know what will happen to them. It's possible that God has different groups of people for different purposes. We know so little. We also know that God is good, compassionate and loving. He is also a judge and righteous. And somehow, all these things will come into play as He makes His decisions. So we just need to trust Him, rely on Him and witness to as many people as possible.