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We are told that the Bible doesn't contradict itself, but I (and perhaps you) have not found that to be the case. That is a hard passage from the perspective you were looking at it in.
So, what to do... ???
As I said earlier, I see that passage as indicating fruit as evidence, not as a requirement for salvation. As soon as you add works to grace, you create a monster. How can such things be measured? Did you do enough? Could you have done more? Was it enough? Did you lose your salvation? Grace is easy to measure. Jesus paid it in full. Done deal.
We are talking about the Vine and Branches passage, right? (John 15)I believe it is mostly about having love for others not so much about doing works. Not so much about what we did but why we did it. A genuine love for others will result in good works.
We are talking about the Vine and Branches passage, right? (John 15)
I think the key message is about abiding in him. Not running of in your own direction. The idea that the life-giving sap runs from the vine into the branches. Also about the vinedresser (God the Father) pruning things out of our life to make us bear much fruit. That's what I get.
Have you ever been to an apple orchard? Someone showed me the branch from a wild apple tree one time. It was loaded with tiny sour apples. At an apple orchard they prune the trees way back to get the big beautiful apples we all love.
Right. Like I said, it is a hard passage. (seems contradictory)But verse 5 says we are the branches so verse 2 is saying any person who does not bear fruit is cut off from the vine. Not our bad nature that is cut off. Only the branches that bear fruit are pruned.
Right. Like I said, it is a hard passage. (seems contradictory)
That's a different analogy. I wouldn't mix those two passages together.Consider Romans 11:16-36. Branches that were grafted in can be cut off and grafted in again as long as they repent.
That's a different analogy. I wouldn't mix those two passages together.
Romans eleven is talking about us gentiles being grafted into Israel while they were being broken off. And an olive tree, not a vineyard.
How can a corrupt tree produce good fruit?I find it interesting that this passage was written to believers, not unbelievers. See bold.
(variance, emulations, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings = church issues)
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)
But one must have the Spirit before the truth can set free. Otherwise religion only binds more.There is lots of free will in the fruit of the Spirit. Choose... and choose to be... (instead of)
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:22–24)
So, anything that doesn't agree with your brand of doctrine is "corrupt"?How can a corrupt tree produce good fruit?
The conviction of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling are two different things.But one must have the Spirit before the truth can set free. Otherwise religion only binds more.
Dead people are not convicted. You only become appalled by sin in the new birth. Remorse and repentance follow.The conviction of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling are two different things.
And the conviction of the Holy Spirit comes before the indwelling. Not vice versa.
The conviction of the Holy Spirit leads us to a decision to follow Christ.
The indwelling of the Holy Spirit follows the decision to follow Christ. Not vice versa.
You seem to be claiming a hostage situation, where God chooses a victim against their will and uses His Spirit to force a conversion. How can you call such a person a believer? Seems to be on par with claiming salvation in infant baptism. But perhaps you embrace that as well?
No, just that people cannot do good things for the right reasons apart from the new birth.So, anything that doesn't agree with your brand of doctrine is "corrupt"?
Not so.Dead people are not convicted. You only become appalled by sin in the new birth. Remorse and repentance follow.
But the fruit of the Spirit is produced in us over time, not all at once.No, just that people cannot do good things for the right reasons apart from the new birth.
How sinful are people to begin with? Scripture teaches that we are so sinful our wills are bound so that they can do nothing but sin. And unless God creates a new spirit in us through the new birth, we can do nothing but sin. Even choosing "Christ" in the flesh is sin. Because it is always a false Christ we choose for the wrong reasons.But the fruit of the Spirit is produced in us over time, not all at once.
You are claiming that God puts his Spirit in a lost person against their will to save them.
And that they manifest the fruit of faith the instant he does.
How can a person like that do "good things for the right reasons" before they are even believers? It doesn't work that way.
You seem to be toying with "experimental" doctrines here. Are you making this stuff up? Never heard of any of it before meeting you.
The Bible doesn't teach that. Only to be found in the first book of Dave.Even choosing "Christ" in the flesh is sin. Because it is always a false Christ we choose for the wrong reasons.
Whatever is not of Biblical Holy Spirit faith is sin, including flesh faith.The Bible doesn't teach that. Only to be found in the first book of Dave.
More unfounded claims.Whatever is not of Biblical Holy Spirit faith is sin, including flesh faith.
Flesh faith buys cars believing the sales person's word is true. But the flesh cannot discern the true Christ. It will believe in a false Christ only based on a false gospel of works. It cannot hear the true gospel or receive the true Christ.More unfounded claims.
"flesh faith" ???
"Biblical Holy Spirit faith" ???
Neither is a biblical term.
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