Is Christianity a Socialistic structure?

[Radagast]

How about if the government gives them a shoddy primary education

Yes, that's bad. For example, on the latest PISA mathematics test, the USA was 35th in the world. And the data shows that it's not a money issue: states that spend more money do no better than other states. Instead, the problems are systemic. And they're hard to fix, because any suggested changes get shouted down by defenders of the status quo.

then colludes with banks to entice them into enormous debt for a mediocre secondary education?

I assume you mean "tertiary." It amazes me that US students pay so much for so little. Our typical university degree costs around $US 40,000. Roughly half of that is free for local students, leaving local students with a debt of around $US 20,000 for fees. That debt is to the government, has an interest rate equal to CPI (around 2%), and is collected by the tax office. And I think that the quality of the degree provided is generally a lot better than that from equivalent US institutions.

 

[RDKirk]

I assume you mean "tertiary."

When people in college are taking remedial courses in subjects they should have learned in elementary school, I do mean "secondary."

 

[GodLovesCats]

So you think you're somehow entitled to the money rich people have? That's just wrong (even if there's a moral obligation on the rich to share their wealth).

There are reasons why poor people are poor, and any responsible government must deal with those reasons, but (except for a few countries) "rich people stole all my money" is not the reason.

I never said anything about entitlement.

There are many reasons people can't get above the poverty line. Poverty is not always preventable.

 

[Radagast]

When people in college are taking remedial courses in subjects they should have learned in elementary school, I do mean "secondary."

Oh dear. Is it that bad now?

 

[RDKirk]

I never said anything about entitlement.

There are many reasons people can't get above the poverty line. Poverty is not always preventable.

Well, it's not always preventable by those who are impoverished.

That's why there is no condemnation of the impoverished in the New Testament. Jesus is fully aware that economic systems created by men are essentially predatory in nature.

 

[GodLovesCats]

Are you saying only impoverished people are unable to prevent poverty?

 

[RDKirk]

Are you saying only impoverished people are unable to prevent poverty?

No.

I said what I said, not what you said.

 

[Albion]

It amazes me that US students pay so much for so little. Our typical university degree costs around $US 40,000. Roughly half of that is free for local students, leaving local students with a debt of around $US 20,000 for fees. That debt is to the government, has an interest rate equal to CPI (around 2%), and is collected by the tax office. And I think that the quality of the degree provided is generally a lot better than that from equivalent US institutions.

It wasn't always that way. Until a generation ago or maybe slightly more, a college education, including one obtained at a prominent institution was quite affordable, but as soon as the government made it possible for students to borrow whatever was needed, the colleges simply raised and raised and raised their tuition and fees in order to absorb those monies until their campuses were turned into splendid, sprawling, wonderlands.

 

[RDKirk]

It wasn't always that way. Until a generation ago or maybe slightly more, a college education, including one obtained at a prominent institution was quite affordable, but as soon as the government made it possible for students to borrow whatever was needed, the colleges simply raised and raised and raised their tuition and fees in order to absorb those monies until their campuses were turned into splendid, sprawling, wonderlands.

It is a three-way collusion between the government, colleges, and banks.

Government (which includes high school counselors, city officials, and state legislatures) convinces students and parents that a college education is an absolute necessity and totally ignore other possibilities. Government also obscures the effect of compounding interest rates being applied, and in a couple of cases states have passed laws actually requiring students to apply for government loans.

Government is also willing to acquiesce to outright fraud by "colleges" who sell worthless degrees, as we see in today's reporting.

Banks can lend willy-nilly because the government guarantees they will be paid, and at higher than the Fed minimum interest rate, higher than housing or even automobile interest.

Colleges are willing to sell themselves to people they know can't succeed in a rigorous program, creating programs to fit the lowest denominator (like "Bachelor of General Studies") and providing remedial reading and arithmetic courses. As long as a student can get that government-backed loan, the college is willing to put him into a class.

 

[Albion]

It is a three-way collusion between the government, colleges, and banks.

Government (which includes high school counselors, city officials, and state legislatures) convinces students and parents that a college education is an absolute necessity and totally ignore other possibilities. Government also obscures the effect of compounding interest rates being applied, and in a couple of cases states have passed laws actually requiring students to apply for government loans.

Yes, that's a point worth making, but I still think what made the problem critically bad was the government's involvement. And we might take a moment also to say that when a middle-class student willingly takes out $60,000 in student loans, knowing that they will have to be paid back, and then finds that his first job post-graduation doesn't pay $50,000/a, he can't excuse himself totally and say he's an innocent victim of the establishment.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, that's a point worth making, but I still think what made the problem critically bad was the government's involvement. And we might take a moment also to say that when a middle-class student willingly takes out $60,000 in student loans, knowing that they will have to be paid back, and then finds that his first job post-graduation doesn't pay $50,000/a, he can't excuse himself totally and say he's an innocent victim of the establishment.

And when did he learn better? They don't teach business math in high school anymore.

When the counselor cheerfully tells the 18-year-old, "Oh, you don't have to start repayments until you graduate and get a job, that 18-year-old has no clue what's going to happen with the interest compounding without payments for those four years. He thinks he has borrowed $20,000, but then come payment time he learns that he actually owes $50,000.

Or the student who signs up for the various programs that call all the money a "grant" as long as he works as a teacher in a low-income school for five years after graduation. So in the fourth year of teaching in a low income school, he fails to dot an I on the extremely arcane (and frequently revised) annual certification form. Then he gets a notice that because he failed to properly certify that fifth year, the $20,000 grant has suddenly been converted to a $20,000 loan which now has an additional $40,000 in 8 years of unpaid interest...and there is no way to fix it.

Yes, government involvement is a problem, but it's not just a matter of making the money available, it's also a matter of not fully advising the inexperienced "customer" of all the fine print. Between having propagandized the teenager for 12 years that he has no choice but to go to college, not offering any courses in high school that would have taught him better, and then taking advantage of his inexperience, the government is practically a loan shark. And then passing laws to prevent bankruptcy...now we're getting into government racketeering.

 

[Albion]

And when did he learn better? They don't teach business math in high school anymore.

Personally, I don't think that any college student can be excused if he thinks paying back $50,000 to $80,000 within the first decade after graduation will be like payments on a used car. The exception would be if the degree is clearly in a field that is in demand and is known to pay recent hires handsome salaries--physicians, for example, or some of the technical fields.

When the counselor cheerfully tells the 18-year-old, "Oh, you don't have to start repayments until you graduate and get a job, that 18-year-old has no clue what's going to happen with the interest compounding without payments for those four years. He thinks he has borrowed $20,000, but then come payment time he learns that he actually owes $50,000.

There's a point there, but I still don't think that when one signs on the dotted line and it represents paying back tens of thousands of dollars to a government entity, in a limited amount of time, he has to know to be aware at least of the basics. And as for your example, a college that charges only $20,000 for ONE year is towards the low side of such costs these days. In fairness, that would assume no contribution coming from the student while in school via summer employment, etc.

 

[Radagast]

And when did he learn better? They don't teach business math in high school anymore.

That's perhaps the biggest problem: failure of schools to teach essential life skills.

Yes, government involvement is a problem

Our government does fine, though. It's just yours.

 

[RDKirk]

That's perhaps the biggest problem: failure of schools to teach essential life skills.



Our government does fine, though. It's just yours.

Your government's primary concern seems not to be making sure the banks make a tidy profit. Do you have an educational structure like Britain's or Germany's that points students toward college or trades while in high school?

 

[Radagast]

Your government's primary concern seems not to be making sure the banks make a tidy profit.

Yeah, we borrow from the government itself, at an interest rate equal to CPI, and repay via the tax office.

Do you have an educational structure like Britain's or Germany's that points students toward college or trades while in high school?

We used to. In my day, people left high school at the end of grade 10 to pursue a trade, but no longer. There is still some pointing students toward college or trades in terms of subject choices.

We share your problems of the social devaluing of trades (even though tradesman make good money here), and the "everyone must go to college" mindset.