Is Catholicism Christianity?

seebs · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by his-girl
Knock of the Honey bull .....k.  You can believe the lies you were taught, but I for one do not buy this ****.  I belive in the apostles, not the ECF's.  And why are you so hostile, that you have to try and put down what I believe.  If you really want to go blow for blow then let's get a mod to let us go for it.  I don't have a problem taking you on.

What's an ECF? You mean the early church fathers?

Was Paul an apostle, given that he came into the game fairly late? Of course he was!

Read Acts. It's full of support for the idea that "apostles" became the early church.

Live4Jesus · Jan 30, 2003

You really should stick to just the bible... you can resource letters and stuff to substantiate, but figure, even when canonization came along, even if God were not pleased with the church even at that place and time, concerning HIS Word, he would always be there to see to it proper.

God sees way ahead of us.

chelcb · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I agree but disagree.  The church was inspired to canonize the gospel however the authority of scripture was not given to it by the Catholic church or any church.  It was given by God.  The Cahtolic church was just inspired to select the books that already had the authority of scripture.  So it is not the Catholics Bible it is God's.  Also the Reformation did not start the schism in the church.  There were already two churches before the Reformation had occurred.  And these churches hated each other and said that hteir way was the only true way.  One who was Orthodox could turn your argument around against you and say that you got those thigs from them because they are the true church. 

 

 

 

And I don't dispute that entirely, Blackhawk. You sound like you have some sense. My point is that Catholics are so far from Christanity yet we selected the cannon...we must have something right and the council of Ephesus that defines the nature of Jesus which is widely accecpted, not refuted here, so we must know a thing or two.

seebs · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
You really should stick to just the bible... you can resource letters and stuff to substantiate, but figure, even when canonization came along, even if God were not pleased with the church even at that palce and time, concernicing HIS Word, he would always be there to see to it proper.

I see this assertion made, but I just don't have any particular reason to believe it. What does it matter? No matter how good the Bible is, people will get it wrong. As long as it's pretty decent, God can use it to reach us and lead us into all truth, but never forget, we are led into truth by the Holy Spirit, and by fellowship with those wiser than ourselves, not by some book.

Christianity is a living faith.

Stormy · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Yep, the first few jews that were saved wrote the new testament, thought everyone knew that... and they held it up with the word of God which was written in the Old Testament, which they knew quite well,,, because they were jews.

Paul did not write any of your NT?

chelcb · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by seebs
What's an ECF? You mean the early church fathers?

Was Paul an apostle, given that he came into the game fairly late? Of course he was!

Read Acts. It's full of support for the idea that "apostles" became the early church.

KC Catholic · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
After another look at the passage I think that you are right it has much to do about the judgement.  However I do not think it says that one must do these actions themselves or one is not saved. 

If one must not do those actions - why would Christ bother to mention them specificlly, not once - but twice?

I believe there is a total package when it comes to our salvation. We receive grace and the gift of salvation freely and in return we are told by Christ that those who lose their lives (meaning giving of ourselves without ceasing) we will rise in Christ.

The sheep and the goats have both received the message of Salvation, the goats too, freely received the free gift, but chose not to act on their faith - thus they lost the gift of salvation.

Originally posted by Blackhawk
I say this because there is more explicit verses that help me interpret this text.  One is the text in James and the another is when Paul states that salvation is by faith alone and not by works.  (Eph 2:8 & 9) Read the passage again but this time assume my point of view and I think that it will be clear that one can read the passage with the interpretation that the goats never had salvific faith so they did not have the works either.  

Actually, he is talking about "works of the law"...meaning the Jews who were keeping the 631 laws of cleanliness and manipulating the Mosiac laws for their own benefit - yet they acted as if they were holy and boasted that they followed the law - that is who Paul is talking about here.

The Pharasees were using the laws to get out of caring for their parents and other responsibilities yet they would boast about how they kept the Mosaic laws and thus had salvation. 

My main question always for the faith plus works side is how much owrks do we need to be saved?  How unselfish do we need to be?  Does the Bible ever explicitly state this? [/B]

 

No, because its not a game. We are called to die completely to ourselves, our needs, our wants, our selfish desires and live to serve our fellow humans. We're not supposed to get caught up in the stock market, and all the trappings of this world - we're supposed to trust in God's plan for us, take up our cross and serve our neighbors.

But who does that 100% in this life.  No one.  Christ was the only one who acted perfectly for any stretch of time.  [/B]

Correct, because we are still human, we are still weak and can do nothing without the grace of God. We have to confess our failings daily, receive forgiveness and pick our cross back up again. It's a life-long battle because the road is long and the gate is narrow.

We don't do works because we think they are going to save us - we do good works in order to lift our neighbor up, to feed them phyiscally and spiritually - all through the grace of God. Always through the grace of God.

his-girl · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by seebs
What's an ECF? You mean the early church fathers?

Was Paul an apostle, given that he came into the game fairly late? Of course he was!

Read Acts. It's full of support for the idea that "apostles" became the early church.

seebs according to Catholic doctrine the ECF's were not the apostles.

I've read my bible ...thank you very much.  The apostles wrote the NT, the Jewish people wrote the OT. 

The ECF (according to Catholic doctine) came into the picture around 150 to 200 AD.  They are the people the Catholic Church believes expanded on the the bible.  The ECF are also the so called founders of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church would love to take credit for inventing Christianity, but this is simply not true.  God would not allow this to happen.  I know that man has taught you this. 

chelcb · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Live4Jesus
Yep, the first few jews that were saved wrote the new testament, thought everyone knew that... and they held it up with the word of God which was written in the Old Testament, which they knew quite well,,, because they were jews.

 

Okay now I stand corrected. The Catholics decided which saved Jews writings to cannonize and which ones not to.

Live4Jesus · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by chelcb
 

And I don't dispute that entirely, Blackhawk. You sound like you have some sense. My point is that Catholics are so far from Christanity yet we selected the cannon...we must have something right and the council of Ephesus that defines the nature of Jesus which is widely accecpted, not refuted here, so we must know a thing or two.

There are good and bad people everywhere, all the time, keeping in mind that the whole world was watching, that is why they have their own catechism, the word of God is pretty much untouchable, you can't just go in and change stuff... the orthodox jews just as a for instance, would have laughed at the catholic church to high heaven count on it... so the bible has to stay intact, too many people watching..

Too many other sources around, they would have been laughed right out of town.

chelcb · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by his-girl
seebs according to Catholic doctrine the ECF's were not the apostles.

I've read my bible ...thank you very much.  The apostles wrote the NT, the Jewish people wrote the OT. 

The ECF (according to Catholic doctine) came into the picture around 150 to 200 AD.  They are the people the Catholic Church believes expanded on the the bible.  The ECF are also the so called founders of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church would love to take credit for inventing Christianity, but this is simply not true.  God would not allow this to happen.  I know that man has taught you this. 

 

Give me your proof...and I read your last post telling me to knock it off, you need to chill.

his-girl · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by chelcb
 

Okay now I stand corrected. The Catholics decided which saved Jews writings to cannonize and which ones not to.

Chelsi, You're finally getting the picture girl.   

Yes the Jews wrote both the OT and NT, all but one was Jewish....I can't remember which one was a gentile...  I thought YOU of all people would know that Chelsi......geesch.

KC Catholic · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by his-girl
seebs according to Catholic doctrine the ECF's were not the apostles.

I've read my bible ...thank you very much.  The apostles wrote the NT, the Jewish people wrote the OT. 

The ECF (according to Catholic doctine) came into the picture around 150 to 200 AD.  They are the people the Catholic Church believes expanded on the the bible.  The ECF are also the so called founders of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church would love to take credit for inventing Christianity, but this is simply not true.  God would not allow this to happen.  I know that man has taught you this. 

Please tone down the comments ....we're getting a bit heated here. We can discuss this without getting so emotional.

Live4Jesus · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Stormy
Paul did not write any of your NT?

And Paul was what?

Oh thats right a jew, highly educated in the synagogue even...

lest i forget...

Why so important to add the tag 'catholic' anyway? I don't get it...

chelcb · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by Blackhawk
AS for the saint thing I have no problem with acknowledging great men and women of the faith as long as we look to them as a good example and not worship them or anything like that. I disagree with praying to the saints. i know the prayers are for the saints to pray for us but I do not think that they are up there praying for us.

And BTW I am a saint now for Jesus blood has washed me clean of my sin. God changed me from a sinner to a saint who sins. But anyways I have no problem with looking at setting up godly men/women as an example so we can learn from them and strive to be more like them (atleast their good qualities) as we strive to be like the perfect example Christ.

 

My point was that Catholic saints that are declared so were a perfect example of what a Christian is supposed to be. Mother Thesesa is apparent of this.

his-girl · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by chelcb
 

Give me your proof...and I read your last post telling me to knock it off, you need to chill.

I don't appreciate being called 'honey'.....k

AS for proof.....I have to go to bed, I'll be back on tomorrow with the proof.  You better hold onto your socks, because you'll be in for a major WAKE up call. 

seebs · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by his-girl

The ECF (according to Catholic doctine) came into the picture around 150 to 200 AD.  They are the people the Catholic Church believes expanded on the the bible.  The ECF are also the so called founders of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church would love to take credit for inventing Christianity, but this is simply not true.  God would not allow this to happen.  I know that man has taught you this. 

Huh?

The early Christian Church established the Bible. That's the Church. That's all there was; "the Christian Church". Fast-forward a while, and you start seeing schisms, but you can trace "the church" back all the way.

I mean, us Protestants (I'm definitely a Protestant) can hardly deny that Martin Luther split off from the church. We think it was for good reasons (or at least for some good reasons), but... He split from them. Before he did that, they were "the Church".

KC Catholic · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by his-girl
I don't appreciate being called 'honey'.....k

AS for proof.....I have to go to bed, I'll be back on tomorrow with the proof.  You better hold onto your socks, because you'll be in for a major WAKE up call. 

Can you come back with a nicer attitude and not be so defensive?

Sleep well, sincerely.

his-girl · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by KC Catholic
Please tone down the comments ....we're getting a bit heated here. We can discuss this without getting so emotional.

Why don't you tell your catholic counterpart (chelsi) to tone down her comments????  I realize that this is a pro-catholic board and the treatment of bible-believing Chrisitans is horrible here.....but I'll defend My Jesus to the death. 

Live4Jesus · Jan 30, 2003

Originally posted by seebs
I see this assertion made, but I just don't have any particular reason to believe it. What does it matter? No matter how good the Bible is, people will get it wrong. As long as it's pretty decent, God can use it to reach us and lead us into all truth, but never forget, we are led into truth by the Holy Spirit, and by fellowship with those wiser than ourselves, not by some book.

Christianity is a living faith.

Thats true seebs... very true even.

However I would disagree on one thing, the bible is more than just 'some book'.

It is the word of God, if you don't believe that than your faith is lacking in the premise that God is able to get what he wants, in ways that we cannot fathom.

My faith tells me God works wonders silently even while everyone is sleeping and no one sees but still it happens... and He can use the monk as well as the thief to accomplish His purpose.

Is Catholicism Christianity?

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