Is Calvinism Just?

[Albion]

By "how well we do it" being a problem, are you saying if we fail to make serious effort to live as we are told to, we are still good to go to heaven in Gods eyes?

No, I was referring to the fact that predestinarians are also believers in Sola Fide. The opponents are normally believers in "works righteousness" and almost automatically believe that God will weigh the quality and quantity and timing of the person's works in deciding if he will be saved or not.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

By "how well we do it" being a problem, are you saying if we fail to make serious effort to live as we are told to, we are still good to go to heaven in Gods eyes?

Remember what Jesus told the APOSTLES: "I know you don't know how to live" "If you think you have it made, you have already failed". "If you trust yourselves to accomplish salvation, you have already failed".

"If you trust the Heavenly Father to accomplish your salvation, it is already done".

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Why do some people have pride?

All people have pride to start with, in the flesh, when born. Like all children have bad stuff bound up in them.

 

[redleghunter]

Read again my post 638

I read it. Still don't see how it has bearing on the subject at hand.

 

[claninja]

First, please don’t bold everything you write. It’s like yelling and makes you look insecure. Second, you are privy to what God has done in the lives of everyone who ever lives? Do you see the problem in assuming you know this?

Dorothy let's avoid superficial arguments that detract from the content. Additionally, let's avoid breaking forum rules and focus on the content of our posts and not each other personally. Many on here use different colors or bolding for typing. When typing, I bold my content so that I can easily differentiate between the quoted content, that's it. It's a tool that helps me.

Now back to the actual content. This doesn't really address my point. There have been many since the creation of the world that have died not knowing the true God of Israel nor ever hearing of Jesus.

Well some of those OT guys did good works so they could walk with God but otherwise I agree.

It is not their good works that were counted as righteousness, but their faith.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

How can anyone have faith in God, without Him first intervening?

Actually it says God raised him up, not created him for that purpose.

So you don't believe God knew prior to the foundation of the world that He would use Pharoah to display his glory?

See, not created but merely promoted to that position.

I believe God knew prior to the foundation of the world, prior to the creation of pharaoh, that God would raise up and harden that specific pharaoh to display his Glory. Paul even follows up with this to say that God can harden whomever he wills, God can mold the clay however he will.

Romans 9:18-21 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Where does that verse say God hardened Israel so they’d crucify Jesus? First it says only some were hardened and second it was because they themselves made choices first and third, the crucufixion isn’t mentioned.

Correct, this verse doesn't explicitly mention the crucifixion. Correct, not all of Israel was hardened, the elect were not. But I don't see your claim that verse explicitly mentions they hardened themselves first. It explicitly states that God played a roll in their hardening.

Romans 11:7-8 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,as it is written, “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Salvation came only through Christ.

So what trespass of the Jews resulted in the salvation going to the nations and reconciliation of the world?

Romans 11:11-12 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusionb mean!

Romans 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

Read the rest of the passage from Jeremiah. God works on the clay BASED on the clays choices.

I never stated God does not allow choice. But if we are slaves to sin, without God's intervention, we cannot ourselves turn into a pot for honorable use. If the potter does not act to turn the spoiled clay, it will remain spoiled clay.

That is exactly what they hope for. I’ve talked to them. That’s their desire. It will not be granted.

I have as well, I have multiple friends who are athiests. They don't hope and desire eternal nothingness, that seems absurd. They love modern medicine and look forward to future technologies that can delay and prevent death. Expecting nothingness upon death and standing in front of the judgment seat of God to be sentenced to eternal death are 2 completely different things.

 

[Ohj1n37]

Let me know what you think of this interpretation. I tend to understand questions like these when I pray/talk to God and ask for guidance. I am going to break down your post and answer it with things I have said previously on other threads.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God.

The very power of God, the awesomeness of God, is what he did for us on the cross. God became human to teach us how to live, to die an undeserved death, and to rise from the dead. See, sin is selfishness and by God choosing to die when he is blameless and take the blame for all our selfishness, all of our sin, he performed the ultimate act of selflessness. When people realize who Jesus is and realize what he did and that he didn't have to do that, but choose to do that, even when people were mocking him, spitting on him, and torturing him, that's what saves someone, that's what breaks their sin and sets them free from selfishness.

Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.

n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

So first thing is everyone is predestined because God knows everything. Some people think because God knows what will happen that this means we do not get to choose, but this is not true. Just because God knows what you or anybody will choose before you choose it doesn't mean you don't have free will. God simply knows what you will choose before you choose. This is like if you were to know the future does suddenly everybody from the parts of the future you know not have free will? Free will does not require not knowing what someone will choose. Free will requires that someone has the capability to make a decision without being forced to come to that decision.

Now when it comes to salvation, God predestined certain people to be saved by how he designed salvation. God wanted only humble people who choose to love him to be saved. He did this by becoming human and then dying in very humble way to confound the proud and fool those who lust after power.

Here's an example if the previous explanation did not suffice. If God wanted to save only the rich he would have designed salvation so that only those with large sums of money would be saved. If God wanted to save only the famous he would have designed salvation so that only those with a certain amount fame would be saved. If God wanted to save only the talented he would have designed salvation so that only those with so much talent would be saved. The thing is he didn't. He wants those who honestly love him to be saved, those who are humble , those who need a savior.

Paraphrasing from scripture, if there was a man with debt and one with a greater debt and they were both forgiven of their debts, who would love the one who released them of their debts more?

Today many people do not even think they have done any wrong or don't care, so guess how much they care when they are told their debts are forgiven. This is the way God has predestined those who are saved and those who are not. God has designed salvation so that the people who choose to love him and seek him will be the ones that are saved, not those with the most money, fame, talent or what have you. So if this true this means he has also predestined those who choose not to love or seek him to not be saved.

The way in which we are unconditionally saved refers to being saved even though we are sinful. We have one condition if you want to look at it that way; do we choose to follow God or do we not (the unforgivable sin)?

So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own.

Hopefully these explanations have shown how God can be both all powerful and all good, but I will summarize with the following. God allows us to make choices without forcing us choose what he would have us to choose, that's what makes it a choice. God knowing that we are incapable of his standards has made a way of salvation that would save those who choose to love him. Again hope this helps, let me know what you think. Have a good one.

 

[Al Touthentop]

If God’s judgment is unjust then we are forced to conclude that Calvin’s theology is incorrect because God is incapable of being unjust.

God has declared, before John Calvin developed his own theories, that man is indeed capable of being righteous and that he does not hold the sins of the fathers against the sons.

Ezekiel 18:3-9
“As I live,” says the Lord God, “you shall no longer use this proverb in Israel.

4 “Behold, all souls are Mine;
The soul of the father
As well as the soul of the son is Mine;
The soul who sins shall die.
5 But if a man is just
And does what is lawful and right;
6 If he has not eaten [a]on the mountains,
Nor lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel,
Nor defiled his neighbor’s wife,
Nor approached a woman during her impurity;
7 If he has not oppressed anyone,
But has restored to the debtor his pledge;
Has robbed no one by violence,
But has given his bread to the hungry
And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury
Nor taken any increase,
But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity
And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes
And kept My judgments faithfully—
He is just;
He shall surely live!”
Says the Lord God."

Jesus called Abel "righteous." If Adam's sin was imputed to Abel through "concupiscence" as Augustine put it, then apparently, he didn't give Jesus the memo.

Matthew 23:35
"35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar."

Total Depravity is based on the erroneous doctrine of original sin, a doctrine which cannot be found in the scriptures. God's righteousness exceeds the righteousness of men. He is fair and just. Total depravity asserts that God is arbitrary and picks and chooses based not on his foreknowledge but on some undefined criteria that has nothing at all to do with what men believe or do. It's slander against God.

“Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

 

[redleghunter]

If a rescuer could just as easily and safely save everyone, but knowingly only saved a few what would you think of such a rescuer?

God is willing and wanting everyone to be saved, but if the person refuses to accept pure charity to the point that person would never accept pure charity (Love) than that person would not be happy in heaven, where there is only charity (unselfish, unconditional, Godly type Love). God is not going to force you to accept His Love (like He is holding a gun on you at some shotgun wedding) and God cannot instinctively place Godly Love in you (that would make it a robotic type of love).

Does not make your case any clearer. You still have the issue of why some are inclined to choose and others who are inclined to reject. What does that say about a rescuer who comes back and only saves the ones who are willing to hold on to the rope?

 

[bling]

What's your main point?

God is fair and just by any standard.

 

[Al Touthentop]

No Dave, here's the clincher...
Total depravity must mean total depravity before we can understand the POWER that freed us from total depravity.

The term "Total Depravity" is an invention of men and cannot be found anywhere in the scriptures.

If God had to make a person a believer, than the Gospel lacks the power UNTO salvation. So basically Calvinism is a direct attack on the cross of Christ. No choice but to believe, and no choice but to burn is no choice in the cross.

Great point.

 

[redleghunter]

??
Some people have pride.
Some people don't.
Each person chooses whether to turn to the Creator or not to.
The proud resist Him.
The humble faithful PRAISE HIM !

Yes this. As in Ezekiel 36 we see the contrasts of a heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

 

[bling]

I typically think of the prodigal son as one who is extremely backslidden and then came to his senses.

Christ who could use any word to describe him described him twice as being "dead".

 

[redleghunter]

I know, and as I said it's not Christ that fails if we lose our salvation.

What's the Promise?

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yes. So...?

So a doctrine which contradicts scripture can't be true. It must harmonize. Paul and Peter preached that there was no partiality. Thus, there can be no partiality. Whatever you preach it has to be in harmony with this idea.

"You say there's partiality like it's a bad thing."

God thought it was a bad thing and had his apostles preach that he showed no partiality. You must reconcile your doctrine with that, rather than trying to contradict what God himself says.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Christ who could use any word to describe him described him twice as being "dead".

He was trying to show us how to think of this word. He was dead to his father. He had no relationship with him. When we sin, we are "dead" to our father in heaven. He has provided us a way to come home and have a relationship with him. We chose to accept this or we don't. God doesn't make anyone believe or chose.

 

[Albion]

So a doctrine which contradicts scripture can't be true. It must harmonize. Paul and Peter preached that there was no partiality. Thus, there can be no partiality. Whatever you preach it has to be in harmony with this idea.

"You say there's partiality like it's a bad thing."

God thought it was a bad thing and had his apostles preach that he showed no partiality. You must reconcile your doctrine with that, rather than trying to contradict what God himself says.

Wait. What drew my reply of "Yes. So...?" was the following:
"If unconditional election is true then God would be showing partiality towards the elect."

That statement is so obviously true that it isn't telling us anything special. Therefore I asked "So?"

 

[Al Touthentop]

No, I was referring to the fact that predestinarians are also believers in Sola Fide. The opponents are normally believers in "works righteousness" and almost automatically believe that God will weigh the quality and quantity and timing of the person's works in deciding if he will be saved or not.

Yeah, but Ephesians puts this idea to rest. The works we do that matter are the ones that God created us to walk in. The "not of works" in the context of that letter means "not of works of yourselves". Not works of merit that men invent. You can make up your bed every day and go to work at 6AM and though these may be "good works" they aren't the ones God has asked us to do.

In Romans and Galatians he explains that the works which don't save anyone are the "works of a now defunct covenant."

The only works which save us now are those commanded by the New Covenant but they surely save us. Peter went to preach to Cornelius, "words by which you must be saved." Just an incantation? No, instructions. Peter "gave" (grace) the commands which then Cornelius obeyed.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Wait. What drew my reply of "Yes. So...?" was the following:
"If unconditional election is true then God would be showing partiality towards the elect."

That statement is so obviously true that it isn't telling us anything special. Therefore I asked "So?"

If you agree that there is partiality, then you disagree when the authors of the New Testament wrote that there is no partiality with God.

 

[Albion]

Works don't save us. But by "works" is meant actions that supposedly earn merit in God's eyes, not something like making your bed.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, I was referring to the fact that predestinarians are also believers in Sola Fide. The opponents are normally believers in "works righteousness" and almost automatically believe that God will weigh the quality and quantity and timing of the person's works in deciding if he will be saved or not.

I don't know of anyone who believes the quality and quantity of how we live is the issue, but only that we are sincere. For only one reason, some cannot give as much as others. Could you show me one person that has made that claim? Thinking that is the case is one thing, but wouldn't it be better if we knew for certain?

See, that's much like the claim we believe in "works righteous" to get to heaven while, as is almost always done by OSAS, completely leaving out the faith part, a huge, and absolutely part of of out beliefs.

I'll await your proof of the first claim but on the works thing, something I see as a part of sincerely trying... hopefully now you can see why I feel there are so many deceptions passed around purposely, as means to make the non osas end of this look bad with non factual claims. IOW, I see neither of your claims as factual, one is a clear half truth (the convenient half) and the other, I've never even heard of.

I personally feel we are saved by faith alone, however we can show a complete lack of faith by our actions/works, or lack thereof, disobedience to God and such...something far from what the deceivers are claiming we think.

Important questions:

I asked this earlier but let me ask you. You are familiar with the "Faith without works is dead" comment in the bible. What exactly do you think they are conveying there?

Pretty straightforward a question, is it that works are not a necessary part of salvation or that it is? And if not, how can you possibly draw that conclusion when to do so would be to say Dead Faith is all we need for salvation? I'm very interested in knowing the "how" there.