Is Calvinism Just?

Kenny'sID said:

I've seen it before, it's a favorite of certain OSAS defenders.

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I'm getting tired of these kind of nonspecific accusations, btw.

If you want to attack Calvinism, quote the Canons of Dordt, or quote the published writings of some contemporary Calvinist pastor or scholar.

reformed05 said:

Ok. Your right.

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I see..that's one way to deal with it.

I can only hope you might catch on one day on why this ended like it did..I honestly believe that would be helpful for you.

Radagast said:

Obviously not. You could be struck dead by lightning the instant after conversion.

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Not even sure why people bother with that one. Jesus has enough commonsense to know that if there is something we cannot help, he won't hold it against us. Why? because he is just and fair. Like the thief on the cross was allowed into heaven without works because he had no opportunity to do any. Most people, Atheists alike are understanding enough not to hold things against anyone who can't help it.

Would you hold it against a paraplegic for not being able to take care of himself? Jesus wouldn't

Radagast said:

If you are not, then the works are a sign of genuine faith.

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Works are the faith, as without works, there is no faith, because "Dead Faith" amounts to nothing.

The bible says faith without works is dead, can you just imagine what will happen when someone shows up with nothing but dead faith (nothing) on judgment day. Things won't be looking very hot for them...on second thought...

Radagast said:

I'm getting tired of these kind of nonspecific accusations, btw.

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I was very specific about the accusation...read back and see.

Radagast said:

If you want to attack Calvinism, quote the Canons of Dordt, or quote the published writings of some contemporary Calvinist pastor or scholar.

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There's another one...shoot the messenger. There was no attack, just a truthful comment, but if you feel the need to call it that as means to try to make it look like I've done something wrong...nothing new about that tactic either.

Oh, and did you notice, you were doing the attacking, and for no reason whatsoever?

Radagast said:

Then he destroys those evil robots. Seems fair. He made them.

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Your not getting the moral dilemma here. Ownership does not mean one is free from morality. God is a moral and good being. His ethics and standards are higher than what mankind generally thinks. Again, just because a person may own a dog, does not mean it is moral and right for the dog owner to kick the dog because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem. This is exactly what you want me to believe about GOD. The robots are doing evil and they cannot help but to do evil, and they are being punished by God for no real good reason because He has forced other robots to be good for no real good reason. If changing certain robots to be good is the way that He operates, then why doesn't the creator change them all? This is the moral dilemma that you do not understand.

You said:

The coast guard has certain responsibilities place on them. People are entitled to have the Coast Guard make efforts to save them.

Do you feel that you are entitled to be saved by God?

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Yes. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16).

Again, how would you and your family feel if this happened to you?
No doubt if a coast guard came to save a group of people that you were with whereby you were all lost at sea, and he saved everyone else except you and your family, you would think it would be unfair of the coast guard to do that. For just imagine the scenario for a moment: As the coast guard drove off without saving you or your family (while everyone else was saved), you ask him, "Why are you not saving me and my family?" The coast guard replies, "There is nothing in you that has influenced my decision here." "I just decided to not save you and your family because I am simply placing a limit on my grace." "For I am merciful upon whom I am merciful."

In reality, you would probably be pretty heated and or mad. Especially if you seen sharks coming towards your direction.
The question is: Why would you be mad at the coast guard?
Surely if he was being fair and just then there would be no reason to get mad at what he was doing. I mean, stop and think for a second. Was there ever a moment in your existence whereby somebody did something unfair to you or unjust? Think. Really think. If you ever felt injustice done upon you in your life, think that GOD does care about justice. But you want me to believe that GOD does not care about being just. This is the dilemma that you are faced with when you believe Unconditional Election. For it makes it appear like GOD is being unjust because He simply does not care to save some for no real good reason. But if the wicked are destroyed because they did freely choose evil, then that is on them. Yet, you want me to believe GOD is the one who allows for some to be evil (as if GOD wants some people to be as evil). This is a moral dilemma for you. If you cannot see it, all I can do is encourage you to pray about it.

Kenny'sID said:

There was no attack

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Yes, there was. I quote it again:

Kenny'sID said:

I've seen it before, it's a favorite of certain OSAS defenders.

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It was non-specific, because you kept these "certain OSAS defenders" conveniently anonymous.

If you really want to continue making accusations like that, say who the "OSAS defenders" are, and give us sourced quotations of their books or sermons. Then there's something that can actually be debated.

Bible Highlighter said:

Your not getting the moral dilemma here.

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You're not getting Romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Bible Highlighter said:

Again, just because a person may own a dog, does not mean it is moral and right for the dog owner to kick the dog because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem.

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That's not the same thing. God made the dog. Ultimately, it's His dog.

On the other hand, if I write a computer program, and I don't like what it does, I have the right to totally erase that computer program.

Bible Highlighter said:

Think. Really think.

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Please stop talking down to people. It comes across sounding incredibly arrogant.

Bible Highlighter said:

If you ever felt injustice done upon you in your life, think that GOD does care about justice.

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Justice? You want justice? Justice is that everybody goes to Hell.

Radagast said:

Yes, there was. I quote it again:

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I saw your claim the first time, and I must say, calling such as that an attack, well, lets just say you might want to get yourself off these particular threads right now because I've seen much worse. What is offensive to you, is normal debate for others

Radagast said:

It was non-specific, because you kept these "certain OSAS defenders" conveniently anonymous.

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It's as simple as I'm not going to name names here. Those of us who have read these threads over the years have seen it. I have seen it, so basically you are only stating you don't believe me, and that's fine, no one says you have to, but I will continue to do as I have, and warn others of them because some here aware of them.

Radagast said:

If you really want to continue making accusations like that, say who the "OSAS defenders" are, and give us sourced quotations of their books or sermons.

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Maybe you thought I meant defenders that don't hang out on these threads, if so, for whatever reason, you misunderstood.

Radagast said:

You're not getting Romans 9:

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

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Romans 9 is not talking about Unconditional Election, but it is talking about how God will save His people in the way that He desires (with His plan of salvation (in getting people initially right with God), which is by faith in the Messiah for both Jews and Gentiles), and not in the way that the Jews (on a national level) desire salvation to be (Which is by their own man made Pharisee religion). Salvation is now gone out to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected their Messiah. Israel was God's chosen people. The Israelites think it is unfair that they are no longer the sole exclusieve gatekeepers to God's way of salvation anymore. For just read verse 24 of the same passage you quoted to me. The Jews rejected their Messiah, and so now salvation went out to the Gentiles.

You said:

That's not the same thing. God made the dog. Ultimately, it's His dog.

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I want you to just think about reality and leave God out of it for a moment. Do you honestly think if a dog owner knew that his dog had an uncontrollable pooping problem because it was sick that it is morally okay for the dog owner to kick the poor animal for pooping on his carpets? The poor animal cannot help but to release hot gushing piles of steamy browny goodness on his master's white carpets. It is sick and cannot help itself. But the master does not care. He just kicks the poor animal anyways. He punts the poor dog like a football. The poor animal cannot help it, but the master treats the animal in a cruel way by kicking him. In real life, if this dog owner was reported, the animal humane society, and the police could get then get involved. Why? If the dog owner was innocent, there would be no problem, right? Do you not understand the concept of animal cruelty? Not kicking an animal (with no real purpose) is based on morals and or in having a moral code. The dog owner does not have the right to kick his dog for no good reason. Now, if the dog was about to attack its owner, the owner could kick the dog in self defense, but that is a different situation or scenario. The owner is trying to protect himself from the dog in doing something bad towards him and others. But if the owner does something bad towards the dog (with no real rhyme or reason), that is a different scenario. The dog owner would then be in the wrong.

You said:

On the other hand, if I write a computer program, and I don't like what it does, I have the right to totally erase that computer program.

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The Scriptures say,
"God is love" (1 John 4:8).
"God is light, and in him is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5).
God will one day erase this Earth, and its own wicked inhabitants.
Did God erase the wicked because God made them that way?
Or will God erase the wicked inhabitants because they chose to be wicked? I believe God will erase them because they chose to be evil and not because God made them to be evil. Why? Because God is love, and God is fair, and just in all that He does. There is no darkness in God for Him to make a unjust decision like forcing a certain group of people to be evil beyond their own capacity.

You said:

Please stop talking down to people. It comes across sounding incredibly arrogant.

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Most people I have talked with understand the basic concept of morality when I explain it to them. The fact that I am encouraging you to "think" is a mild suggestion to think about such a concept that should be clear to see for all. It was not meant to be a command, or statement made that I know all things and neither was it a statement made that I am superior to anyone. It was simply a friendly suggestion.

You said:

Justice? You want justice? Justice is that everybody goes to Hell.

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But if God is loving, merciful, and He provided a way of escape for mankind, would He truly allow fair justice to happen for all?
Is it not in God's very nature to love, forgive, and save others if they are willing to cooperate with Him?
Sure, we all broke God's laws, and we deserve punishment, but yet on the other hand, God made a way escape through His Son Jesus Christ. "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." (John 3:17).
For God means.... "salvation."
"In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God." (Psalms 62:7).

Also, why will God have a judgment for men if it was God who decides alone who is good and who is bad? It makes no sense.
That would be like trying to have a court trial for a pack of wolves who attacked a bunch of people because they were hungry. Such a trial would not make any sense because the wolves are only doing what they know on instinct. If you tried to place wolves into a court system, they would not understand what the judge or prosecutor would be saying unto them. Even if for the sake of argument there was a wolf translator present, the wolves would simply say that they were hungry and wanted to eat, and they were not attacking for no real good reason. The wolves were only doing what they knew to do on instinct. But imagine it. The judge throws down the hammer at the wolves and he says, "You stupid wolves. You should not eat people even though you cannot help it, but that does not matter. I simply don't' care. I sentence you wolves to life imprisonment and cruel dog torture for something that is beyond your control." The wolf translator tells the wolves what the judge had said.

The wolves are dumbfounded and speechless (i.e. they did not bark).

Bible Highlighter said:

I want you to just think about reality and leave God out of it for a moment.

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Well, no. God is the ultimate reality. God created the dog. Ultimately it's his dog, not mine. I'm not going to "leave God out of it."

As I said, the only thing I've created is computer software, and I can do anything to that that I want. Similarly, God created me. God can do anything to me that He wants.

But I'm not going to participate in a debate that assumes that God doesn't exist, or that denies that God is the Creator.

Bible Highlighter said:

The fact that I am encouraging you to "think" is a mild suggestion to think about such a concept that should be clear to see for all. [...] It was simply a friendly suggestion.

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It comes across as incredibly arrogant (not "friendly" at all). I have indeed thought about these things, along with St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Augustine, the Reformers, and many others.

BNR32FAN said:

You mean it’s the first time the word grace appears in the KJV. The context implies that Noah was a just, righteous, and blameless man who walked with God. There’s an obvious contrast between the actions of Noah and everyone else in the world. So in this particular case the context does not support that Noah’s favor with God was unmerited.

“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD. These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

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"8Noah, however, found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Benson Commentary
Genesis 6:8. Noah found grace — That is, he obtained mercy and favour; for although he was by nature corrupt and sinful, he had been renewed in the spirit of his mind, and by repentance and a lively faith, had obtained witness that he was righteous. This vindicates God’s justice in his displeasure against the world, and shows that he had examined the character of every person in it, before he pronounced it universally corrupt; for, there being one good man, he smiled upon him.


Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(8) But Noah found grace.—This is the first place where grace is mentioned in the Bible, and with these words ends the Tôldôth Adam. It has traced man from his creation until his wickedness was so great that the Divine justice demanded his punishment. But it concludes with words of hope. Jehovah’s purpose was not extermination, but regeneration; and with Noah a higher and better order of things was to begin.

aiki said:

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org Search: "Molinism"

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I don't know, Molinism seems to paint God as the divine pragmatist. It projects an essential aspect of temporality back into divine logic, thus eliminating true synergism.

BNR32FAN said:

These are just somebody’s assumptions on why God found favor with Noah that are not supported by the text that is given. Neither of these examples are really supported in the contents of the chapter.

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And your opinion are your assumptions

BNR32FAN said:

The problem with this idea is God’s reaction which denotes His expectations of man. He was angry with man, why? Because they did not meet His expectations. God being omniscient already knew this but how could God get angry at man for failing to meet expectations that He knew were impossible to meet? That’s would be as stupid as punishing your dog for not using the toilet.

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The scripture uses anthropomorphisms