Is Calvinism a heresy?

Mark Quayle · Jun 18, 2023

Derf said:
It's not possible in a theology that assumes God knows the future. But we're trying to deal with the biblical description of God, not with mere assumptions about Him.

Yes, the Biblical description, where God knows the future —indeed, he causes the future.

Derf said:
My case is easier to prove. As I only have to show a single instance where God did not know a future outcome to prove He doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge.

Give me such a single instance. Not so easy after all!

Derf said:
And there's no reason to assume "first cause" means "omniscient" or "everything is predetermined". For instance, if I initiate a family--i take a wife and have children with her, then I am "first cause" of the family. But each of the members of the family has his own mind and will, and therefore the outcome of the family is unknown to me. If I disown children from my inheritance, then part of the future is known to me.

There is plenty reason to 'assume' that "first cause" means "omniscient" or "everything is predetermined". But even aside from the philosophical reasoning, the Bible says so.

No, you are not first cause of your family. That's silly. God is. The outcome of the will and mind of your children is unknown to YOU, but not to God...

Derf · Jun 18, 2023

zoidar said:
I have no desire to debate that with you. All I want to say is, it is important to my view of God, I haven't even thought about all the reasons.

I just wonder what happens when we seem something important for our view of God, then find out it isn't true. Doesn't that affect our view of God negatively? Is rather be unsure about my view of God, and be willing to change it when presented reliable evidence.

zoidar said:
If God knows it, sure it is going to happen, but what God knows is settled when we choose.

If God knows it before you are born, then it is settled before you are born, and you obviously didn't have any input on it.

zoidar said:
My free will is not bound by what God knows. What God knows is bound by what I choose. How does that work? I'm basically clinging to mystery.

Of course, you have to when your theology contradicts itself.

zoidar said:
Sure you can make a case from Scripture.

Which should carry a lot of weight, right?

zoidar said:
I haven't tried to do that here. Scripture shows we are responsible. If everything is predetermined by God, we can't be held responsible for God to be just.

I agree with this--its the primary argument against Calvinism.

zoidar said:
Scripture says God is just, so the claim everything being predetermined by God must be false. That I think is simple logic from Scripture.

Very good! But take it one step further. If everything is predetermined before you are born, even if not by God, then you aren't responsible, either.

zoidar said:
I don't think it can. It can only be a "beyond" time.

Which, as far as I can tell, is not a scriptural concept.

Derf · Jun 18, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Yes, the Biblical description, where God knows the future —indeed, he causes the future.

I partly agree with this. God knows any part of the future He plans, because He will cause His plans to come to pass, as long as He doesn't change His mind.

Mark Quayle said:
Give me such a single instance. Not so easy after all!

Hezekiah. Easy!

Mark Quayle said:
There is plenty reason to 'assume' that "first cause" means "omniscient" or "everything is predetermined". But even aside from the philosophical reasoning, the Bible says so.

Why don't you actually back up this statement with scripture, since you say it exists.

Mark Quayle said:
No, you are not first cause of your family. That's silly. God is. The outcome of the will and mind of your children is unknown to YOU, but not to God...

If I create something, I'm the first cause of it. For instance, if I write an original poem, then I am the first cause of that poem. God may have made me, and the wood for the paper, and the air I breathe while I write it, etc., but the thought of the poem came from me. We know this from the description of Adam naming the animals.
Genesis 2:19 KJV — And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The names of the animals came from Adam. He was the first cause of those names (though not of the animals).

Mark Quayle · Jun 18, 2023

John Mullally said:
God is First Cause in that He is creator. He is not First Cause in that He arranges external circumstances in order to script our every action (which Calvin taught - see Post 920) and thus God is the author of our sin.

The external circumstances descend causally from Omniscient First Cause. It's not a convoluted logic that shows that EVERYTHING except God himself, who knew it ALL when he caused it, intended it.

Your intuition says God is the author of sin if he intentionally brought about what caused sin. But the author of sin is sinning in being the author, which is logically impossible for God to do, not to mention ludicrous to consider. The notion of God rebelling against himself is logically self-contradictory. Your intuition is wrong. Consider, in one of your less vociferous moments, that your intuition is driven by your worldview of self-determinism.

John Mullally said:
Scripture says God faithfully provides (thus well intended) a way of escape from sin and from experience that is commonly not taken. Doesn't that prove we have a free will?

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

How about arguing from scripture.

How does that prove we have free will? Are you confusing 'choice' with 'free will' again?

BTW, to quote Scripture is not at all the same as to argue from Scripture. As above, you take 1 Cor. 10:13 to prove that God providing a way out of temptation to prove free will. It does not —at least, not your brand of free will. Yet you take the posture that it does, and your reasoning? —that God (because of the fact that he has provided a way) intended that that way be taken, [in every case]. You don't even discuss the way that God uses a person's own preferences to bring about what God intended!

QvQ · Jun 18, 2023

Derf said:
I don't see any indication of this in scripture. Would you like to cite a passage?

Matthew 26: 34
John 13 : 26 -31
John 13 : 38

QvQ · Jun 18, 2023

Derf said:
A first cause for things man can initiate, yes.

You mentioned that you are the first cause of a poem you wrote.
Aquinas said, man has the capacity for Art. Man has the capacity to rearrange what God created, in this case words, into patterns. It is an inherent capacity, given to rearrange what is provided to man. In a sense, it is creative but it is not a first cause. It is not an act of will as art is not a choice, rather it is a gift or a compulsion to express or satisfy a need.
Art is caused and is an inherent capacity in man.
It is not a first cause nor does it necessarily cause anything. I may be the first cause of this post (or you are.) I write it but as an expression of myself which is art. People do have selves but how does self expression prove free will?

zoidar · Jun 18, 2023

Derf said:
I just wonder what happens when we seem something important for our view of God, then find out it isn't true. Doesn't that affect our view of God negatively? Is rather be unsure about my view of God, and be willing to change it when presented reliable evidence.

I mentioned the Early Church a few times. What they held true doesn't hold any weight for you?

There has to be a very good reason for me to go against a teaching about God, held by all, or at least most churches and denominations.

Derf said:
If God knows it before you are born, then it is settled before you are born, and you obviously didn't have any input on it.

Ok, you are free to feel this way.

Derf said:
Of course, you have to when your theology contradicts itself.

If there is another possible route, I will consider it. Though I can't hold the Calvinistic view for several reasons and I can't hold you view because of Church history. Well, there is Molinism, which is an interesting view...

Derf said:
Which should carry a lot of weight, right?

Sure! I like you are trying to show your view from Scripture. You mention Hezekiah, and it's indeed interesting God first tells him he will die and then changes His mind about it after prayer. I think it shows our free libertarian will in action.

Derf said:
I agree with this--its the primary argument against Calvinism.

Very good! But take it one step further. If everything is predetermined before you are born, even if not by God, then you aren't responsible, either.

I think that is correct ... unless what is predetermined is determined by our future choices.

Derf said:
Which, as far as I can tell, is not a scriptural concept.

There are things not explained in Scripture that still might be true.

Derf · Jun 18, 2023

maxamir said:
It seems like you do not believe in any prophesy because you choose to think that it is impossible for God to decree things before they happen including predestinating to salvation those He chose and gave grace to before time began (Eph 1:4-6, 2 Tim 1:9).

Why would you say that? God's word is full of prophecies. And certainly He decrees some things.

maxamir said:
You also seem to think God is a liar and did not mean what He said in Gen 2:17 that man would die that day when he sinned

Boy, that came out of left field.

maxamir said:
or that God was somehow misinformed when He declared that man whom He created very good (Gen 1:31) had become only evil continually (Gen 6:5) as you seem to think that man is still spiritually alive and has something good within him to be able to choose God when the Scriptures declare otherwise.

Maybe I don't assume my theology, but try to get it from scripture. Where does the bible say Adam died spiritually, ever?

maxamir said:
Until God by grace brings a person to see their wicked heart and submit completely to Him and His salvation and not their faith which is an instrument for God's grace, they remain in darkness under His curse (Jer 17:5).

What is the purpose of that curse? Was it to make sure man couldn't repent? Yet isn't that exactly what He wants all men to do? So they won't perish?
2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

maxamir said:
I sincerely pray that you and all like you would study the Scriptures given below so that your boasting can be removed and you can come to understand the glorious wonders of His sovereign grace.

That's funny...that's exactly how I pray about you!

maxamir said:
View attachment 332462

Did you want to talk about any of that chart? I've been through many of the proof texts for tulip, and they aren't at all what they look like when you just list them in a chart.

Derf · Jun 18, 2023

QvQ said:
You mentioned that you are the first cause of a poem you wrote.
Aquinas said, man has the capacity for Art. Man has the capacity to rearrange what God created, in this case words, into patterns. It is an inherent capacity, given to rearrange what is provided to man. In a sense, it is creative but it is not a first cause. It is not an act of will as art is not a choice, rather it is a gift or a compulsion to express or satisfy a need.
Art is caused and is an inherent capacity in man.
It is not a first cause nor does it necessarily cause anything. I may be the first cause of this post (or you are.) I write it but as an expression of myself which is art. People do have selves but how does self expression prove free will?

First cause
1. a primary cause of anything; source
Collinsdictionary.com
(note that this is the primary definition of "first cause")

oikonomia · Jun 18, 2023

I do not worry about which "ism" I should embrace as a label or camp.

I find the greatest blessing lies in just saying "Amen" to what the Bible utters.
I am not obligated to reconcile all paradoxes. I do have to enjoy God and commune with Jesus on an ever deepening level.

The temptation to make sure I wear the right "ism" hat is not a priority to me.

Derf · Jun 18, 2023

You said:

QvQ said:
God does know exactly every sin you will commit before the foundation of the world

Then you provided these scriptures:

QvQ said:
Matthew 26: 34
John 13 : 26 -31
John 13 : 38

None of those verses talk of anything before the foundation of the world. They all talk about something predicted while the subjects were alive. Surely you've got more than that!

John Mullally · Jun 18, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
The external circumstances descend causally from Omniscient First Cause. It's not a convoluted logic that shows that EVERYTHING except God himself, who knew it ALL when he caused it, intended it.

Your intuition says God is the author of sin if he intentionally brought about what caused sin. But the author of sin is sinning in being the author, which is logically impossible for God to do, not to mention ludicrous to consider. The notion of God rebelling against himself is logically self-contradictory. Your intuition is wrong. Consider, in one of your less vociferous moments, that your intuition is driven by your worldview of self-determinism.

If someone literally causes another to do something, the one doing the causing is responsible for the action. The fact that God judges people for their sinful actions reflects the fact that either the man being judged sinned volitionally or that God is unjust. Under Calvinist determinism, we can never do anything volitionally - although we may imagine we do so. If God determines man's every action, it does not matter what mechanism God uses to do so - arguing over the exact method or man's disposition given to him by God is unimportant.

Mark Quayle said:
How does that prove we have free will? Are you confusing 'choice' with 'free will' again?
BTW, to quote Scripture is not at all the same as to argue from Scripture. As above, you take 1 Cor. 10:13 to prove that God providing a way out of temptation to prove free will. It does not —at least, not your brand of free will. Yet you take the posture that it does, and your reasoning? —that God (because of the fact that he has provided a way) intended that that way be taken, [in every case].

I believe that when God provides a way of escape to temptation, God intends that way of escape be taken. But due to man's free will, man does not always take the way of escape that God provides. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink.

For argument's sake, let's assume Calvinistic determinism is true. In 1 Corinthians 10:13, Paul says that God is faithful to provide a way of escape from falling to temptation, but we know from experience, that even believers sometimes fall to temptation. 1 Corinthians was written to believers - so I will limit the scope of that scripture to believers. Per Calvinistic determinism, God predetermines every fall to temptation that believers make, but per 1 Corinthians 10:13 God is faithful to provide believer's a way of escape to every temptation. That shows a contradiction, as whenever God predetermines a believer's fall to temptation, God has blocked any way of escape to that temptation. This contradiction proves Calvinistic determinism is false.

Mark Quayle said:
You don't even discuss the way that God uses a person's own preferences to bring about what God intended!

Simple: I don't agree to that statement. Again, I don't believe God intends for people to sin. 1 Corinthians 13 says that Love (and God is love) believes all things and hopes all things. When God hopes all things - he is hoping good things for people. I know we live in a fallen world, but think pure, lovely, and noble thoughts (Philippians 4:8).

DialecticSkeptic · Jun 18, 2023

John Mullally said:
Philippians 2:12-13 does not show we obey strictly by God's will.

It shows that our obedience is by the grace and power of God, as can be seen by simply reading the passage. "Where does obedience fit it to your [Calvinist] theology?" someone asked, and this passage serves as a clear and succinct illustration which answers that, which is why I chimed in with it. God is the one bringing forth in you both the desire and the effort to continue working out your salvation with awe and reverence.

Now, it is possible that you disagree with this. I don't know, maybe you believe there are good works you can perform apart from God's grace. That would be a theological can of worms in itself.

At any rate, for reasons that elude me, you have gone and added the word "strictly" here. That is a very curious thing for you to have done. I wonder why you chose to sneak that word in here, since I never claimed that our obedience was "strictly" by God's will. Perhaps you embrace the illusion that humans are basically robots under Calvinism. If that is the case, then you are not sufficiently informed of the system of doctrine you presume to oppose and there is very little else to be said.

"If everything is by God's will," you asked, "then why is Paul calling believers to cooperate?" For the same reason why Jesus called a dead Lazarus to come out.

DialecticSkeptic · Jun 19, 2023

zoidar said:
Grace is God receiving a sinner who repents.

Grace is also God granting the sinner that very repentance itself and knowledge of the truth (e.g., 2 Tim 2:25). More specifically, grace is the "unmerited favor" of God toward sinners who don't and can't deserve such generous divine gifts as these. (A related term is mercy, which refers to God's willingness, out of love and compassion, to refrain from giving sinners what they deserve according to the strict measure of justice.)

QvQ · Jun 19, 2023

Derf said:
None of those verses talk of anything before the foundation of the world. They all talk about something predicted while the subjects were alive. Surely you've got more than

Isaiah 46 :9, 10
Isaiah 41: 21-23
John 13: 9

John Mullally · Jun 19, 2023

John Mullally said:
Philippians 2:12-13 does not show we obey strictly by God's will.

DialecticSkeptic said:
At any rate, for reasons that elude me, you have gone and added the word "strictly" here. That is a very curious thing for you to have done. I wonder why you chose to sneak that word in here, since I never claimed that our obedience was "strictly" by God's will. Perhaps you embrace the illusion that humans are basically robots under Calvinism. If that is the case, then you are not sufficiently informed of the system of doctrine you presume to oppose and there is very little else to be said.

Perhaps you are not sufficiently informed on what Calvin teaches. You say we are not robots under Calvinism, when Calvin states the indented text below. If that does not make men robots, I don't know what does. Maybe your brand of Calvinism has drifted away from Calvin - but that does not make me ignorant.

“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

DialecticSkeptic said:
"If everything is by God's will," you asked, "then why is Paul calling believers to cooperate?" For the same reason why Jesus called a dead Lazarus to come out.

This is an example of a "some to all" fallacy in terms of if God's call causes some to cooperate (as you illustrate with Lazarus), then His call to individuals must cause all to cooperate. However, some do not cooperate. Paul in Acts 17:30 says that God calls all men everywhere to repent, and that is commonly not happening. Also re-read my arguments on this in Post 831 as you did not address the bulk of them.

Jesus called for Peter to come to him on the water, and Peter failed. Did Jesus call for Peter to do that which secretly was not God's will? Why did Jesus berate Peter's lack of faith for the failure when under Calvinism, God gives faith and everything is predetermined by God?

zoidar · Jun 19, 2023

DialecticSkeptic said:
Grace is also God granting the sinner that very repentance itself and knowledge of the truth (e.g., 2 Tim 2:25). More specifically, grace is the "unmerited favor" of God toward sinners who don't and can't deserve such generous divine gifts as these. (A related term is mercy, which refers to God's willingness, out of love and compassion, to refrain from giving sinners what they deserve according to the strict measure of justice.)

I like you say "also".

God granting a sinner repentance doesn't have to mean it's void of the sinner's free libertarian will. But I think I can agree that it's grace.

QvQ · Jun 19, 2023

Derf said:
First cause
1. a primary cause of anything; source
Collinsdictionary.com
(note that this is the primary definition of "first cause")

So I am the "first cause and source" of dinner, as I select, buy, prepare and serve?
However the Art of cooking is by nature and necessity. It is compelled, caused by the very nature of our selves.
Writing this post is an expression of my self, my nature however it was "caused" by your post.
Art is an inherent ability and a compulsion to satisfy and/or express our natures.
Art is a capacity, not an act of will. It is an inherent ability and an expression of self.
Interesting if you consider that sin is a capacity, an inherent ability and compulsion to satisfy our natures.

Mark Quayle · Jun 19, 2023

Derf said:
First cause
1. a primary cause of anything; source
Collinsdictionary.com
(note that this is the primary definition of "first cause")

In this definition of First cause, not the article "a". This is not THE First Cause. This use only admits one of the primary causes of anything; among the first, or among the more immediate. Not the same thing at all. God is not that kind of "first cause". To argue from this is to argue a different subject.

QvQ · Jun 19, 2023

Derf said:
Maybe I don't assume my theology, but try to get it from scripture. Where does the bible say Adam died spiritually, ever?

Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death

Is Calvinism a heresy?

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