Is Calvinism a heresy?

[QvQ]

You assume that God sets people up to sin by using circumstances (i.e. First Cause) to cause sin.

Who created the automobile? God or Man?
God created the capacity for ART in man. God provided the opportunity, the materials and the capacity to man (second cause) to rearrange things to suit his needs.
It is Sin or not Sin. It is Art. Rearranging what God (first cause) provides (providence) is no more sin than a gopher digging tunnels. It is what man does and what gophers do.

Who created Sin.
God created the capacity for ART in Satan. God created Satan, provided the opportunity, the materials and the capacity for Satan (second cause) to rearrange things to suit himself. . God permits it for His own good purposes the same as God allows man to make bombs.. It is part of the capacity of man and Satan to do evil. God allows this. God created the capacity, the opportunity and the materials.

Man and Satan are secondary causes. God is first cause.
Was free will required to create the automobile or a bomb? No, it is not a choice. Making Art is an inherent capacity for man, no choice. Whether to continue a particular object of art, be it medicine or bombs can be in the sin/free will argument but who created sin is not a free will argument. Satan did but he used material, opportunity, and capacity given by God to do so. He was just doing what Satan does, same as a gopher or an automotive engineer.
It is all for God's good purpose and subject to His Will.

 

[Derf]

Who created the automobile? God or Man?
God created the capacity for ART in man. God provided the opportunity, the materials and the capacity to man (second cause) to rearrange things to suit his needs.
It is Sin or not Sin. It is Art. Rearranging what God (first cause) provides (providence) is no more sin than a gopher digging tunnels. It is what man does and what gophers do.

Who created Sin.
God created the capacity for ART in Satan. God created Satan, provided the opportunity, the materials and the capacity for Satan (second cause) to rearrange things to suit himself. . God permits it for His own good purposes the same as God allows man to make bombs.. It is part of the capacity of man and Satan to do evil. God allows this. God created the capacity, the opportunity and the materials.

Man and Satan are secondary causes. God is first cause.
Was free will required to create the automobile or a bomb? No, it is not a choice. Making Art is an inherent capacity for man, no choice. Whether to continue a particular object of art, be it medicine or bombs can be in the sin/free will argument but who created sin is not a free will argument. Satan did but he used material, opportunity, and capacity given by God to do so. He was just doing what Satan does, same as a gopher or an automotive engineer.
It is all for God's good purpose and subject to His Will.

Sounds like you are justifying Satan and sin. If it's all for God's good purposes, then why will Satan be thrown into a lake of fire? Why will unrepentant sinners? Should torment come to those who are performing God's good purposes?
Genesis 18:25 KJV — That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
God thinks there is a distinction between good and evil, righteous and wicked.

 

[zoidar]

Why would one want to? Wouldn't it lead to something, eventually, that would be open rebellion?

And so he thinks he can think naughty thoughts and God won't know, so he doesn't have to repent of them?
Matthew 5:28 KJV — But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


Shouldn't we let God describe Himself in the way He thinks best? Can you find it in His word?

Why is it a comfort? My pastor, with whom I disagree in this area, is constantly explaining to us how wonderful it is that God knew each of us by name before He created the world. I don't see why that is more wonderful than His loving us just because we exist now.

Because since God's knows everything nothing can slip between His fingers.

Doesn't it? Doesn't He eventually stop trying to draw the sinner in and let him suffer his demise? Or will no one be thrown into hell?

I don't think God stops drawing. There is always a chance to respond to the gospel. I believe as long as there is a testimony about Christ there is a drawing, some might shut their heart completely to it, but that is another matter.

I don't have scriptural reason to accept the view, since I don't see it in scripture.

It's a philosophical view. Again check with the Early Church Fathers and I'm sure you'll find some interesting answers. Sorry, I have not studied them enough to give you any good quotations straight off.

There may be an inconsistency when it comes to God taking action for our well-being. Let's say you pray to God for protection. God hears your prayer and knows that tomorrow you will get hit by a bus. In love, He makes you trip 2 seconds before the bus rolls by, so you were no longer in its path. Now, did He know you would get hit, or not, since it didn't actually happen? Was His knowledge faulty? Even God has a hard time acting freely in a settled future. He would have to have set everything up exactly how it plays out before He created the world, and then, well, you have Calvinism, which has God causing you to sin--because we don't think God is smart enough to deal with our free choices as they come.

A settled future? I never talked about a settled future. God knows what we will choose, what we choose are not settled until we choose. When we choose it is settled what God already knew. To some that might sound illogical or contradictory, but that is my view. And no God does not need to look in time, because He is all knowing already.

Of course God knew you would get hit if He didn't make you trip. From all knowing He knows you will pray and knows if He will intervene too. It's not that you pray because God knew it. It is God knew you would pray since you choose it. I don't see the problem. But all this is philosophy, trying to explain the ungraspable

But at least the trinity is described in scripture. "Outside of time", where God can go back in time and correct something, isn't...nor is it needed, except to preserve a false understanding of God's omnipotence.

I don't believe God can go back in time and correct things.

Without matter is there time? If not, God must have been outside of time before matter was created.

 

[QvQ]

God thinks there is a distinction between good and evil, righteous and wicked.

According to Jesus, God allows all to grow together until the harvest.
God does not condone the use of any of His Creation for evil, however He permits it.
That is for His Own Reasons...His Own Good Purposes, however you want to say it.
When the day comes..anyone who misused God's creation will be judged and tossed in the lake of fire, According to His Will, in His good time.
It is within Satan's God given capacity to rearrange God's creation to his own ends, the same as man can rearrange God's creation to make automobiles.
There can't be anything that God did not create or permit, anything beyond His control and authority so deal with it. Satan did not create sin as he didn't create himself but he corrupted what God provided by rearranging those provisions to his own design according to his nature.
It is the Black Arts

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar
If God knows someone will not repent, even through years of drawing him, why wouldn't God just stop with no drawing whatsoever? And how do you know He doesn't stop, maybe before he starts? Afterall, doesn't He know the heart of the unbeliever just as well as He knew the heart of Abraham?

I just believe God doesn't. It would be unjust to deal with us from foreknowledge or He could just as well send people to gehenna before letting them be born, for sins not yet committed. It's we who cut God off, not the other way around, from my view that is.

The reason God tested Abraham was that He might have known his heart, but He didn't know whether Abraham would actually follow through. The reason He had to check out Sodom was to see if they really wouldn't repent. Man still can repent, even if God gives him over to a depraved mind, but it is increasingly unlikely. Nebuchadnezzar was given over to a depraved mind for a time, eating grass like an ox. But then God restored him to sanity, and he gave glory to God. I've heard, and seen some evidence in my own dealings with the dying, that many people have a moment of lucidity just prior to death, coming out of a coma or recognizing loved ones again. Maybe God gives every man a last chance.

Who knows? Maybe everyone will get a chance in the end. I'm leaving it to God .

 

[Mark Quayle]

I believe I included answers to those questions in Posts 908, 913, and 917.

What scripture says that God intended Satan's rebellion or intended man to fall? The fact that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world indicates He knew it. But knowing is not the same as intending, planning, or decreeing us to sin.

This teaching of first cause is not from scripture, but not surprisingly it is from Calvin.

John Calvin: “Certain shameless and illiberal people charge us with calumny by maintaining that God is made the author of sin, if His will is made first cause of all that happens. For what man wickedly perpetrates, incited by ambition or avarice or lust or some other depraved motive, since God does it by his hand with a righteous though perhaps hidden purpose—this cannot be equated with the term sin.”​

Excuse me??? Am I hearing you say that God is not First Cause?

 

[QvQ]

@ John Mullally This teaching of first cause is not from scripture, but not surprisingly it is from Calvin.

The teaching of first cause is much older than Calvin.
It was originally from the Greeks.
It is the foundation of Summa Theologica By St. Thomas Aquinas. It is part of the proof of God.
"There is no case known (neither, indeed, is it possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible."
"Therefore it is necessary to admit a first cause, to which everyone gives the name of God."

 

[QvQ]

Excuse me??? Am I hearing you say that God is not First Cause?

Just for information...
Here is the argument for 1st Cause from Aquinas
1. If something were the cause of itself, it would be prior to itself.
2. Nothing is prior to itself.
3. Nothing is the cause of itself. (1,2)
4. There are no infinite causal chains.
5. At least one thing has a cause.
6. Every causal chain must be (i) circular, (ii) infinite, or (iii) have a first cause. ———————————————————————————————————— C. There is a first cause. (3,4,5,6)

 

[Derf]

Excuse me??? Am I hearing you say that God is not First Cause?

I shouldn't speak for @John Mullally , but I think he means the teaching that the first cause inevitably results in all the subsequent effects.

 

[Derf]

Because since God's knows everything nothing can slip between His fingers.

Knows everything now? Or knows everything in the future? These are two different concepts. Do you think your parents were unable to care for you when a baby because they didn't know the future exhaustively? True, they weren't perfect parents, and they understood that you were growing, changing. But if the only way they could be considered adequate parents was for them to know the future, all parents are therefore bad parents. God not only has perfect knowledge of your current situation, but also is perfectly capable of dealing with any situation that comes up, whether or not He knows your future situation (which could be very different based on your and other's choices).

I don't think God stops drawing. There is always a chance to respond to the gospel. I believe as long as there is a testimony about Christ there is a drawing, some might shut their heart completely to it, but that is another matter.

It's a philosophical view. Again check with the Early Church Fathers and I'm sure you'll find some interesting answers. Sorry, I have not studied them enough to give you any good quotations straight off.

A settled future? I never talked about a settled future. God knows what we will choose, what we choose are not settled until we choose. When we choose it is settled what God already knew. To some that might sound illogical or contradictory, but that is my view. And no God does not need to look in time, because He is all knowing already.

So if He knows something is going to happen (however He knows it), then it for sure will happen, right? Otherwise God would be wrong about it. That's why I call it "settled"--such is required if God knows it (everything in the future) to be a fact.

Of course God knew you would get hit if He didn't make you trip. From all knowing He knows you will pray and knows if He will intervene too. It's not that you pray because God knew it. It is God knew you would pray since you choose it. I don't see the problem. But all this is philosophy, trying to explain the ungraspable

I don't think it's all philosophy, but it involves logic, which is part of philosophy, and truth from God's word.

I don't believe God can go back in time and correct things.

Without matter is there time? If not, God must have been outside of time before matter was created.

"Before" matter was created? How can there be a "before" if time didn't exist?

 

[Mark Quayle]

I shouldn't speak for @John Mullally , but I think he means the teaching that the first cause inevitably results in all the subsequent effects.

So, you think he means that some effects are from other first causes? or that some effects, while subsequent, are not caused? or what?

 

[Derf]

According to Jesus, God allows all to grow together until the harvest.
God does not condone the use of any of His Creation for evil, however He permits it.
That is for His Own Reasons...His Own Good Purposes, however you want to say it.
When the day comes..anyone who misused God's creation will be judged and tossed in the lake of fire, According to His Will, in His good time.
It is within Satan's God given capacity to rearrange God's creation to his own ends, the same as man can rearrange God's creation to make automobiles.
There can't be anything that God did not create or permit, anything beyond His control and authority so deal with it. Satan did not create sin as he didn't create himself but he corrupted what God provided by rearranging those provisions to his own design according to his nature.
It is the Black Arts

He can't actually punish anyone for sin until they actually commit it, so He must allow that much to be just.
He can't forgive without repentance, either, or there's no impetus away from sin. So He has to let the sin go unpunished a little while to see if we repent. That's mercy.

If God is both just and merciful, sin must be allowed for a time. But that doesn't mean God has to know exactly every sin you will commit from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Mark Quayle]

zoidar said:
Because since God's knows everything nothing can slip between His fingers.

Knows everything now? Or knows everything in the future? These are two different concepts.

But notice —they are HUMAN concepts, and entirely Time-Dependent —HUMAN, and therefore short of data and comprehension.

But I would like to hear how it is possible that God would not know everything in the future. And no, the rebuke of, "—because it hasn't happened yet, of course!" invokes a principle that governs God, which makes him not omnipotent, not first cause after all, and not omnipotent, not to mention, not omniscient.

 

[John Mullally]

Excuse me??? Am I hearing you say that God is not First Cause?

God is First Cause in that He is creator. He is not First Cause in that He arranges external circumstances in order to script our every action (which Calvin taught - see Post 920) and thus God is the author of our sin.

Scripture says God faithfully provides (thus well intended) a way of escape from sin and from experience that is commonly not taken. Doesn't that prove we have a free will?

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.​

How about arguing from scripture.

 

[Derf]

zoidar said:
Because since God's knows everything nothing can slip between His fingers.

But notice —they are HUMAN concepts, and entirely Time-Dependent —HUMAN, and therefore short of data and comprehension.

But I would like to hear how it is possible that God would not know everything in the future. And no, the rebuke of, "—because it hasn't happened yet, of course!" invokes a principle that governs God, which makes him not omnipotent, not first cause after all, and not omnipotent, not to mention, not omniscient.

It's not possible in a theology that assumes God knows the future. But we're trying to deal with the biblical description of God, not with mere assumptions about Him.

My case is easier to prove. As I only have to show a single instance where God did not know a future outcome to prove He doesn't have exhaustive foreknowledge.

And there's no reason to assume "first cause" means "omniscient" or "everything is predetermined". For instance, if I initiate a family--i take a wife and have children with her, then I am "first cause" of the family. But each of the members of the family has his own mind and will, and therefore the outcome of the family is unknown to me. If I disown children from my inheritance, then part of the future is known to me.

 

[Derf]

So, you think he means that some effects are from other first causes? or that some effects, while subsequent, are not caused? or what?

I'll let him answer, but my previous post gives my answer...that yes, there are other first causes, in a sense.

 

[QvQ]

If God is both just and merciful, sin must be allowed for a time. But that doesn't mean God has to know exactly every sin you will commit from before the foundation of the world.

Then you say, God is only First Cause (beginning/creation) and Last Cause (end/judgement)
Meanwhile everything that happens between creation and judgement is all according to the will of man and/or satan.
Interesting view, that man is a first cause.
And that a man can will himself to salvation. Man causes himself to salvation.
God does know exactly every sin you will commit before the foundation of the world (omniscient/omnipresent)
God is the cause in the sense that He created man with a nature (capacity) and the habit (original sin) to sin. God gave man the circumstances, the opportunity, the nature and the habit.

This is the point where Calvin and Aquinas don't agree.
Aquinas believed in predestination as providence, so that within the narrow frame of circumstances, opportunity and provisions, man could make limited choices, according to his nature and his habits. Aquinas said it was not "free will" as it was not unlimited, being constrained by providence and nature.

Calvin went a step further stating that man did not even have a limited free will because the circumstances, opportunity and provisions, man's nature and habits bound a man's natural will to sin.. Man did not have free or even limited will. Man's will was bound to sin and only the Grace of God could free the will to accord with the will of God.

 

[zoidar]

Knows everything now? Or knows everything in the future? These are two different concepts. Do you think your parents were unable to care for you when a baby because they didn't know the future exhaustively? True, they weren't perfect parents, and they understood that you were growing, changing. But if the only way they could be considered adequate parents was for them to know the future, all parents are therefore bad parents. God not only has perfect knowledge of your current situation, but also is perfectly capable of dealing with any situation that comes up, whether or not He knows your future situation (which could be very different based on your and other's choices).

I have no desire to debate that with you. All I want to say is, it is important to my view of God, I haven't even thought about all the reasons.

So if He knows something is going to happen (however He knows it), then it for sure will happen, right? Otherwise God would be wrong about it. That's why I call it "settled"--such is required if God knows it (everything in the future) to be a fact.

If God knows it, sure it is going to happen, but what God knows is settled when we choose. My free will is not bound by what God knows. What God knows is bound by what I choose. How does that work? I'm basically clinging to mystery.

I don't think it's all philosophy, but it involves logic, which is part of philosophy, and truth from God's word.

Sure you can make a case from Scripture. I haven't tried to do that here. Scripture shows we are responsible. If everything is predetermined by God, we can't be held responsible for God to be just. Scripture says God is just, so the claim everything being predetermined by God must be false. That I think is simple logic from Scripture.

"Before" matter was created? How can there be a "before" if time didn't exist?

I don't think it can. It can only be a "beyond" time.

 

[maxamir]

Which you know because of what bible verse(s)?

Until you can answer the first question, you have absolutely no support for this statement. And until you fathom that, you end up putting God in a box with yourself and do not understand His sovereignty over all things. That may sound eerily familiar, but if your statement is so baseless, I can used it to say the exact opposite of what you say, and mine is just as compelling.

Good. That can apply equally well to all people.

Which is talking about Ephraim, about to be removed from the land by the Assyrians. Are you saying that you expect God to deport you to Assyria?.

True, unless he repeats and sees his desperate need for Christ.

No, God initiates contact by sending His son to become a man, die, and rise again. Are you saying that such a sacrifice is not enough, but that God has to do something else?

Which is not at all what that verse says.

Which is not at all what that verse says, but exactly the opposite.



Here's the Young's Literal Translation of
Psalm 110:3 YLT — Thy people are free-will gifts in the day of Thy strength, in the honours of holiness, From the womb, from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth.


Which is hogwash that you use to make you feel better about your false doctrine. You should be ashamed of keading people astray and giving them no hooe, when the Gospel is clearly about giving hope to the world.

It seems like you do not believe in any prophesy because you choose to think that it is impossible for God to decree things before they happen including predestinating to salvation those He chose and gave grace to before time began (Eph 1:4-6, 2 Tim 1:9).
You also seem to think God is a liar and did not mean what He said in Gen 2:17 that man would die that day when he sinned or that God was somehow misinformed when He declared that man whom He created very good (Gen 1:31) had become only evil continually (Gen 6:5) as you seem to think that man is still spiritually alive and has something good within him to be able to choose God when the Scriptures declare otherwise.

Until God by grace brings a person to see their wicked heart and submit completely to Him and His salvation and not their faith which is an instrument for God's grace, they remain in darkness under His curse (Jer 17:5).

I sincerely pray that you and all like you would study the Scriptures given below so that your boasting can be removed and you can come to understand the glorious wonders of His sovereign grace.

 

[Derf]

Then you say, God is only First Cause (beginning/creation) and Last Cause (end/judgement)

Can you show me where I said anything like that that? It's like someone asking what he had for breakfast and supper, and then after getting the answer, coming back with "then you must not have eaten any lunch."

Meanwhile everything that happens between creation and judgement is all according to the will of man and/or satan.

As before, this is nothing at all like what I said, nor like what I believe.

Interesting view, that man is a first cause.

A first cause for things man can initiate, yes.

And that a man can will himself to salvation. Man causes himself to salvation.

I never said that. Being a first cause of some sequence of events has little to do with whether man can save himself.

God does know exactly every sin you will commit before the foundation of the world (omniscient/omnipresent)

I don't see any indication of this in scripture. Would you like to cite a passage?

God is the cause in the sense that He created man with a nature (capacity) and the habit (original sin) to sin. God gave man the circumstances, the opportunity, the nature and the habit.

Again, can you show me scripture for that statement? If you can't, then you should stop saying it.

This is the point where Calvin and Aquinas don't agree.
Aquinas believed in predestination as providence, so that within the narrow frame of circumstances, opportunity and provisions, man could make limited choices, according to his nature and his habits. Aquinas said it was not "free will" as it was not unlimited, being constrained by providence and nature.

Calvin went a step further stating that man did not even have a limited free will because the circumstances, opportunity and provisions, man's nature and habits bound a man's natural will to sin.. Man did not have free or even limited will. Man's will was bound to sin and only the Grace of God could free the will to accord with the will of God.

Based on your above unsupported statements, it's difficult to believe that you know what you're talking about in this area.