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those who were hardened and died in their sin never received repentance from God and confirmed what type of vessels they were.I don't see a point being made. Just because God "gave them up" to continue debasing themselves has nothing to do with repentance.
Grace is God granting a sinner the ability to repent and believe unto His glory!Grace is God receiving a sinner who repents. That is not something the sinner deserves or something God is obliged to do. To Him alone is the glory!
If your statement is accurate, (and I do think it is, btw), look at the scope of things that "love" encompasses! There is more to it than any human can include in a comprehensive definition.Obedience is the fruit of regeneration that springs forth from loving gratitude and not merit.
Joh_14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh_14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
Joh_14:24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
Joh_15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
Look at it from God's point of view, who sees the silly things we think we mean. If it is NOT given by God, it isn't real repentance.If it's given by God, is it truly repentance? In other words, if Esau wasn't really repentant, but God "gave him repentance", then He didn't really change his mind about things, God changed his mind for him.
Repentance means you've changed from one type of vessel to the other.those who were hardened and died in their sin never received repentance from God and confirmed what type of vessels they were.
Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
But, as you point out below, you believe that God wants us to do or mean those silly thingsLook at it from God's point of view, who sees the silly things we think we mean.
I don't see that at all. Why would you think that is so self evident?If it is NOT given by God, it isn't real repentance.
Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's purpose, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.What is it about us that demands we exist as our own beings, and not God's tools for GOD's purposes?
And you think we need God's approval to sin? Apart from God you can't even do something God doesn't want you to do? You can see that it makes God the author of sin. So maybe what you believe is one of those silly things we think we mean--from God's point of view, of course.What makes us think we have our part to do, and God has his, as if our part was not also God's work??? "Apart from me you can do nothing" is not hyperbole.
God's blessing being upon His people the Israelites has not much to do with us or repentance. But sure salvation is God's work. You believe it's God's work in a person to repent, I believe it's God's work in a person as he repents.Grace is God granting a sinner the ability to repent and believe unto His glory!
Psa 3:8 Salvation belongs to the LORD. Your blessing is upon Your people. Selah
Can you quote where I said something that led you to believe that God "wants us to do or mean those silly things"? I don't see it.But, as you point out below, you believe that God wants us to do or mean those silly things
Well, has it not been obvious to you that your decisions are not entirely reliable? Only God is entirely dependable.I don't see that at all. Why would you think that is so self evident?
"Someone else's person"? Are you talking about another human? Or are you calling God "someone else"? Or what do you mean?Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's person, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.
"...God's approval to sin"? Approval?? Do you think our obedience to what he desires to happen is the usual way his decree comes to pass? Who do you think we ARE??? He doesn't need our obedience to accomplish what he purposed from the beginning to happen in each case. In fact, he uses both obedience and disobedience to accomplish what he has decreed concerning us.And you think we need God's approval to sin? Apart from God you can't even do something God doesn't want you to do? You can see that it makes God the author of sin. So maybe what you believe is one of those silly things we think we mean--from God's point of view, of course.
so much for partiality or "arbitrary selection"God indeed commands all men everywhere to repent
The supernatural drawing of God (a we see in John 6) enables all the "choice" that depravity disables.but how is a man able to repent when the Scriptures confirm that men love their sin
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
No because if that were true then only the people alive in Peter's day would be saved.Who is the us?
The answer is those to whom this epistle was written to.
Romans 2:11 is referring to the fact that God does not prefer Jew over Gentile, (nor, for that matter, for any characteristic endemic to the person, nor for any earned merit.) It does not mean that God has generic intentions only.so much for partiality or "arbitrary selection"
Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial'
It is not just Paul (in Romans 2:11), but Peter in Acts 10:34-35 who also shows that God does not show favoritism. Acts 10:34-35, treats divine impartiality as a virtue, implying that it is something good and noble about God, perhaps which we should all emulate in our own interactions with our neighbors. if those who “fear Him” and “does what is right” are those who are hand-picked from eternity to be irresistibly caused to want to do that, then how would that be a demonstration of impartiality?maxamir said:
God indeed commands all men everywhere to repent
Romans 2:11 is referring to the fact that God does not prefer Jew over Gentile, (nor, for that matter, for any characteristic endemic to the person, nor for any earned merit.) It does not mean that God has generic intentions only.
But if God commands everyone to repent, there is no implication that they are all equally able to repent. In fact, there is every indication in Scripture that all are equally UNABLE to repent, but for the work of the Spirit of God within them.
It is fallacious to use Romans 2:11 to claim that in the Gospel, God has posed a mathematical equation into which we are to insert the variables.
the vessels of wrath are indeed godly vessels that will glorify God's perfectly good, holy and just wrath for all eternity and it is a miracle that God let them breathe His air as long He does. Sadly, most interpret His longsuffering as somehow God not seeing their evil deeds and not caring about them which emboldens them towards further evil and in turn greater judgement.Repentance means you've changed from one type of vessel to the other.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV — Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Those vessels fitted for destruction become godly vessels. That's why God is longsuffering, so that as many as are willing to repent will do so before it's too late.
Jeremiah 18:4 KJV — And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
...
Jeremiah 18:8 KJV — If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
That's God granting repentance!
With all due respect, it doesn't really matter what you think you believe, what really matters is whether what you believe is the truth.God's blessing being upon His people the Israelites has not much to do with us or repentance. But sure salvation is God's work. You believe it's God's work in a person to repent, I believe it's God's work in a person as he repents.
I would recommend that you go back to page 32 and start reading all of my contributions on this matter and replying to them rather than making me have to repeat myself continually.so much for partiality or "arbitrary selection"
Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial'
The supernatural drawing of God (a we see in John 6) enables all the "choice" that depravity disables.
And John 12:32 tells us that God supernaturally "draws ALL mankind" to Himself
That is a problem for Calvinism
1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE World"
No because if that were true then only the people alive in Peter's day would be saved.
See below.Can you quote where I said something that led you to believe that God "wants us to do or mean those silly things"? I don't see it.
How does this apply to the conversation we're having?Well, has it not been obvious to you that your decisions are not entirely reliable? Only God is entirely dependable.
Sorry...spell check got the best of that. I meant "someone else's purpose". If we are merely tools for God's purposes, and we are made in His image, does that mean He is merely a tool for someone else's purpose, someone more powerful than He? If not Him, then why us? Maybe God created us to actually have relationship with Him, you know, like to take walks with Him in a beautiful garden and share coversation where one party doesn't know exactly what the other party is going to say all the time.Are you saying God's image involves being a tool for someone else's person, and not existing as our own being? That's a strange way to talk about God.
"Someone else's person"? Are you talking about another human? Or are you calling God "someone else"? Or what do you mean?
You don't think God tells us what He's doing, maybe like friends would do with each other?I am saying that we are not only what we see ourselves as being. In fact, we have hardly a clue as to what God is doing.
Of some things, yes, but not some others. Why is it helpful for you to believe this? What does this support/affirm for you?I am saying that we are not ontologically what we see. We are 'becoming' —not 'being'. And no, I don't deny the principle of "already, but not yet." I'm saying that we are pretty doggone ignorant.
How else does obedience work? The one in authority decrees something, and His subjects must obey or face consequences."...God's approval to sin"? Approval?? Do you think our obedience to what he desires to happen is the usual way his decree comes to pass?
He uses our disobedience to save us? That's odd. Isn't that like saying "do evil that good may come"?Who do you think we ARE??? He doesn't need our obedience to accomplish what he purposed from the beginning to happen in each case. In fact, he uses both obedience and disobedience to accomplish what he has decreed concerning us.
Even those silly things that we mean?God owes us nothing. He needs nothing.
And apart from his causation even sin would be impossible, just as existence would be impossible. God has decreed absolutely everything that comes to pass.
No, there's not. God decrees then brings it to pass.No, I did not say "commanded". There is a huge difference.
You mean that they do evil that even God didn't decree?the vessels of wrath are indeed godly vessels that will glorify God's perfectly good, holy and just wrath for all eternity and it is a miracle that God let them breathe His air as long He does. Sadly, most interpret His longsuffering as somehow God not seeing their evil deeds and not caring about them which emboldens them towards further evil and in turn greater judgement.
Then they don't "willingly repent", do they? If God made them willing, then they are forced to repent, which means they don't really repent, they just do as God programmed them to do. And before they "repented" they were doing what God programmed them to do. So I don't really understand how there's anything in what you describe that could be called "repentance" by those people.Ecc 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
The only people that willingly repent are those that God made willing in the day of His power (Psalm 110:3) because unless God chooses some, none would ever choose Him.
Thanks for those very nice scripture citations. Why did you include them? Are you trying to point out that your theology is at odds with Jesus' words? Because for God to force someone to become willing is not for them to come willingly. Your theology contradicts itself, and the bible.Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
Joh 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Joh 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
That's some really lousy logic. Did God make you willing to live? Why don't you complain about that?Then they don't "willingly repent", do they? If God made them willing, then they are forced to repent, which means they don't really repent, they just do as God programmed them to do. And before they "repented" they were doing what God programmed them to do. So I don't really understand how there's anything in what you describe that could be called "repentance" by those people.
Some people aren't willing to live. They commit suicide.That's some really lousy logic. Did God make you willing to live? Why don't you complain about that?
You should know as Calvinists are kings of lousy logic as they often repeat the mantra that if God hadn’t chosen them (which they are assuming), then they never would have chosen Christ, which sounds like self-righteousness through self-deprecating.That's some really lousy logic. Did God make you willing to live? Why don't you complain about that?
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