Is Calvinism a heresy?

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
There are 2 choices who that was...1. God, 2. Someone more powerful than God.

Did 2 create the world? Control who would be formed in the womb. - I say no, God is still far more powerful than man. God in His wisdom has allowed man to freely choose or reject Him. To freely sin, or do righteousness.

You know, for God to have enabled free will, you are not God's second best, you are the one He plans to change the world through.

But a note back to the topic: if God can not sin, why would he plan children from fornication or other sins? Some of who have been saved. God does not plan out in the sense of pre-knowing every person who would exist. For if He can't sin, or tempt people to sin, how does he force fornication to occur?

He does not plan it. Sure He has a plan, a very detailed one, but it allows for free agency.

But if someone plans evil from before the world was created, and God merely assents to it, that other being is more powerful than God. He is everlasting like God. And because God has to play along, performing His part in the play that the other being wrote, God also does not have freewill.

I think we both agree there is no being more powerful than God. Therefore, if God knows everything you will do before you exist, before any other being besides God exists, then God must be the one who determined everthing you will do--still no freewill.

How do we get out of this dilemma? Look to the scriptures and see if they support exhaustive foreknowledge. They don't. Neither does God need exhaustive foreknowledge to make sure His plan for the world occurs, whether we individuals play along or not.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 1, 2023

Derf said:
But if someone plans evil from before the world was created, and God merely assents to it, that other being is more powerful than God.

No one plans evil from before creation. God in His foreknowledge knows that evil will occur within a free will system, within constraints that He has bound.

Luke 17:1 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!

We see God adding constraints as man fails to do as He desires in:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

God cut the age of man because He found 120 years was like a cutoff point of true repentance.

Derf said:
He is everlasting like God. And because God has to play along, performing His part in the play that the other being wrote, God also does not have freewill.

God writes the stories not man, what are you trying to say? I am very confused by your speech.

Derf said:
I think we both agree there is no being more powerful than God. Therefore, if God knows everything you will do before you exist, before any other being besides God exists, then God must be the one who determined everthing you will do--still no freewill.

If you look back to my previous posts you can see how I explain this.

Derf said:
How do we get out of this dilemma? Look to the scriptures and see if they support exhaustive foreknowledge. They don't. Neither does God need exhaustive foreknowledge to make sure His plan for the world occurs, whether we individuals play along or not.

Your doctrine covers the Love of God with a [put your own grumpy terms here] idea. If there is no free will there is no such thing as "love", love is a free choice. A God who forces people to hell with no chance is not love.

Open AI says it this way:

Premise 1: If humans do not have free will, then love is meaningless. Premise 2: Love is not meaningless (e.g. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, John 3:16). Conclusion: Therefore, humans have free will.

This argument appeals to the idea that love involves choosing to care for and be committed to another person. If we do not have free will, then our ability to choose to love would be undermined, as we would be predetermined to either love or not love certain people. However, the Bible consistently presents love as a choice that we must make, suggesting that we do indeed have free will.

John Mullally · Apr 1, 2023

Derf said:
If God knew me before I was created, then He didn't know me, just an idea of me. If that idea of me included everything I would ever do, then someone besides me must have determined what I would do. There are 2 choices who that was...1. God, 2. Someone more powerful than God.
(hint: #1 is Calvinism, #2 is Arminianism). Neither of these allows for freewill.

God gave man a freewill.

God delegated dominion of the earth to Adam. Per Genesis 1:28, God’s sovereign prerogative was to delegate dominion of the earth over to Adam, who would then “subdue” and “rule over” it. Psalms 115:16 states: “The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, but the earth He has given to the sons of men.”

However, since Calvinism teaches that God decreed whatsoever comes to pass, including every thought, word and deed, how would God be delegating anything over to mankind? The implication of this absolute determinism is that that which is delegated by the right hand is taken away by the left.

Examples of Freewill in the KGV There are several references to “freewill” that occur in the Bible, as found in the King James translation of the Bible. Here are two example:

Ezra 7:13: “I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.” (KJV)

Philemon 1:12-14: “I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.”

Variations of Freewill in NASB Here are additional variations to free-will, as found in the New American Standard translation:

Genesis 49:6: “Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; because in their anger they slew men, and in their self-will they lamed oxen.”

1st Peter 5:2: “Shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness.”

Luke 12:57: “‘And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?’”

God working with Cain demonstrates Cain's freewill. Set within the context of Cain, according to Genesis 4, God asked why Cain was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6-8: “Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.’ Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.”

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

John Mullally said:
God gave man a freewill.

God delegated dominion of the earth to Adam. Per Genesis 1:28, God’s sovereign prerogative was to delegate dominion of the earth over to Adam, who would then “subdue” and “rule over” it. Psalms 115:16 states: “The heavens are the heavens of the LORD, but the earth He has given to the sons of men.”

However, since Calvinism teaches that God decreed whatsoever comes to pass, including every thought, word and deed, how would God be delegating anything over to mankind? The implication of this absolute determinism is that that which is delegated by the right hand is taken away by the left.

Examples of Freewill in the KGV There are several references to “freewill” that occur in the Bible, as found in the King James translation of the Bible. Here are two example:

Ezra 7:13: “I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.” (KJV)

Philemon 1:12-14: “I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.”

Variations of Freewill in NASB Here are additional variations to free-will, as found in the New American Standard translation:

Genesis 49:6: “Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; because in their anger they slew men, and in their self-will they lamed oxen.”

1st Peter 5:2: “Shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness.”

Luke 12:57: “‘And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?’”

God working with Cain demonstrates Cain's freewill. Set within the context of Cain, according to Genesis 4, God asked why Cain was angry, warning and encouraging him of potential dangers that he must get under control so that things will go well with him.

Genesis 4:6-8: “Then the Lord said to Cain, ‘Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.’ Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.”

The fact that God is acting persuasively shows the independence of Cain. He was his own person, though unfortunately acting contrary to the way in which God felt that he should. The fact that God reasoned with Cain, in that he must “master” the sin that was crouching at this door, shows that God believed that Cain could exercise his autonomous, self-determination in a positive manner. He should be able to control the murderous motives that he felt inside. The fact that God warned Cain what would happen if he failed to control himself shows that God believed that Cain possessed the power of contrary choice, that is, Cain did not have to murder Able, even though that is exactly what he eventually did.

The fact that God reasoned with Cain also shows that a different outcome was possible. If a different outcome than what ended up happening was possible, AT THE TIME GOD SPOKE TO CAIN, then God must not have know ahead of time which possibility would occur. Or possibly (my #2) that God knew which would occur, but only by His working all the details our ahead of time, then enacting the possibility that He wanted.

Classic Arminianism doesn't seem to be a comprehensive paradigm for this discussion. That only leaves Calvinism (God knows all things because He ordains all things, even sin) or the future is not already settled for you and me before we were born (Open Theism, where God knows all things that are, and all things He plans to accomplish, and He knows Satan's thoughts and anyone else's who exists).

John Mullally · Apr 1, 2023

Derf said:
The fact that God reasoned with Cain also shows that a different outcome was possible. If a different outcome than what ended up happening was possible, AT THE TIME GOD SPOKE TO CAIN, then God must not have know ahead of time which possibility would occur. Or possibly (my #2) that God knew which would occur, but only by His working all the details our ahead of time, then enacting the possibility that He wanted.

God's reasoning with Cain is repeated with others throughout the Bible. In particular, we see it in Acts 2:36-41 where Peter preaches the Gospel, pleading with the Jewish crowd, and 3000 were saved. In many cases, people do not comply with God's leading as Acts 7:51 states that people frequently resist the Holy Spirit. Conflicts with God sometimes result in enacting a "possibility" that God does not want - as God “desires all people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4) freely, by believing in His Son through willing participation, rather than desiring for all people to be saved irresistibly.

Derf said:
Classic Arminianism doesn't seem to be a comprehensive paradigm for this discussion. That only leaves Calvinism (God knows all things because He ordains all things, even sin) or the future is not already settled for you and me before we were born (Open Theism, where God knows all things that are, and all things He plans to accomplish, and He knows Satan's thoughts and anyone else's who exists).

God's will not always done. Your reasoning assumes something non-Calvinist Evangelicals do not share - in particular that God's will is always done at this time.

Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the will of God. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven - so based upon "God being in complete control" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.

Calvinism is unfalsifiable. Under Calvinism (and also Islam), everything that happens is God's will. So it cannot be disproved by observation.

The problem with Calvinism is I don't believe it is supported by scripture. Jesus's atonement made provision for all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), God is the savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10), and 1 John 4:8 says that God is love - thus how could God predestine anyone to hell. Therefore, God's reasoning with people is intended to save them. But the Holy Spirit can be rejected (Acts 7:51).

maxamir · Apr 1, 2023

Dan1988 said:
Man may still retain a vague resemblance to the image of God, ie. man resembles the Lord Jesus Christ who is Jehovah God in the flesh. So we know that God looks like a Man and He is seated at the right of the Father right now as a Man with the scars on His hands, feet and side.

The difference between us and Adam before the fall, is great. Adam didn't bare the image of God in the same way after the fall as he did before he fell into sin and rebellion against God. He became an enemy of God, so even though he resembled God in a physical sense, as the Bible states "let Us make him in our likeness.

In Genesis 5:3 we read that Adam's son Seth was born in Adams image, this was obviously after the fall. I haven't studied the word "image" to see if there are different applications of the word, but it does appear in the book of revelation where it describes people worshiping the Beast and His image.

Jesus called the religious Phrases, "Children of the Devil", there's no way a child of the Devil can bare the image of God. There is no hope of salvation for the fallen Angels, Demons, Devils. They are eternally damned to the lake of fire, where they will be tormented forever. The lake of fire was not created for men but many will be cast into it, because they chose to worship the Devil.

Man was indeed made in the image and likeness of God and was called very good (Gen 1:31) but after the Fall, man lost the image of God which is not man's humanity but true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10) which God Himself confirmed when He stated that man had become only evil continually (Gen 6:5).

Everyone is born spiritually dead in the cursed image of Adam (Gen 5:3), slaves to sin and Satan, his children, bearing his evil image and the image of God is only restored to man by grace through faith in Christ Jesus who is the Image of God (2 Cor 4:4) which is why Christ said that men must be born again, because we are all born in the devil's image and desperately need the grace of God.

Any image without HIs likeness is a counterfeit of the true image of God.

maxamir · Apr 1, 2023

John Mullally said:
God's reasoning with Cain is repeated with others throughout the Bible. In particular, we see it in Acts 2:36-41 where Peter preaches the Gospel, pleading with the Jewish crowd, and 3000 were saved. In many cases, people do not comply with God's leading as Acts 7:51 states that people frequently resist the Holy Spirit. Conflicts with God sometimes result in enacting a "possibility" that God does not want - as God “desires all people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4) freely, by believing in His Son through willing participation, rather than desiring for all people to be saved irresistibly.

God's will not always done. Your reasoning assumes something non-Calvinist Evangelicals do not share - in particular that God's will is always done at this time.

Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the will of God. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven - so based upon "God being in complete control" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.

Calvinism is unfalsifiable. Under Calvinism (and also Islam), everything that happens is God's will. So it cannot be disproved by observation.

The problem with Calvinism is I don't believe it is supported by scripture. Jesus's atonement made provision for all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), God is the savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10), and 1 John 4:8 says that God is love - thus how could God predestine anyone to hell. Therefore, God's reasoning with people is intended to save them. But the Holy Spirit can be rejected (Acts 7:51).

The universal verses you quoted point to people from all nations, tribes and tongues without distinction and not without exception. The Scriptures plainly state that Christ came to save His people from their sin (Mat 1:21) and laid down His life for His sheep and said that not all were His sheep in John 10. John even declared in 1 Jn 3:10 that there are children of God but also children of the devil because all are conceived in sin and born in the image of the devil and only those who are born again by grace are made into children of God in whom the image of God is restored which was lost in the Fall.

God is indeed love and loves those who love Him because He first loved them (Pro 8:17, 1 Jn 4:19) and demonstrated His love in securing salvation for His people, chosen before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and given grace before time began (2 Tim 1:9) so that they may know that salvation is of and belongs to God and not to man (Jon 2:9, Psa 3:8, Rev 7:10).

maxamir · Apr 1, 2023

QvQ said:
There is definetely a resemblance to Adam in modern man, just as there is a definite resemblance to the Garden of Eden in modern East of Eden
Man's flesh is corrupted although we see the handiwork and glory of God.
Man is a pale image of perfection

The image of God is very good (Gen 1 :31) and we know that there is none that are good after the Fall (Gen 6:5) so therefore if man still had anything of the image of God which is good then he has no need for Christ who is the image of God (2 Cor 4:4).

The True Image of God

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

John Mullally said:
God's reasoning with Cain is repeated with others throughout the Bible. In particular, we see it in Acts 2:36-41 where Peter preaches the Gospel, pleading with the Jewish crowd, and 3000 were saved. In many cases, people do not comply with God's leading as Acts 7:51 states that people frequently resist the Holy Spirit. Conflicts with God sometimes result in enacting a "possibility" that God does not want - as God “desires all people to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4) freely, by believing in His Son through willing participation, rather than desiring for all people to be saved irresistibly.

Agreed.

John Mullally said:
God's will not always done. Your reasoning assumes something non-Calvinist Evangelicals do not share - in particular that God's will is always done at this time.

Jesus would not command his followers to pray something that is not the will of God. So when Jesus commanded his followers to pray "Your will be done on earth as it is heaven", he was also saying that God's will on earth equates with what is being done in heaven. Notice that "be done" is in the present tense. There is no sin, sickness, poverty, or rebellion in heaven - so based upon "God being in complete control" and Matthew 6:10 there should be no sin, sickness, poverty and rebellion on earth at this time.

Agreed. And well stated.

John Mullally said:
Calvinism is unfalsifiable. Under Calvinism (and also Islam), everything that happens is God's will. So it cannot be disproved by observation.

The problem with Calvinism is I don't believe it is supported by scripture. Jesus's atonement made provision for all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2), God is the savior of all people (1 Timothy 4:10), and 1 John 4:8 says that God is love - thus how could God predestine anyone to hell. Therefore, God's reasoning with people is intended to save them. But the Holy Spirit can be rejected (Acts 7:51).

I agree with your description, but I think Calvinism IS falsifiable. You can see it in the Westminster Confession, where the authors have to express that "nevertheless God is not the author of sin." (Quotation marks to set off the text, but the text I used is from memory and not the exact wording.) They needed to do that because the confession actually contains the falsification of Calvinism--in terms of internal inconsistency. If God ordains all things, and if God knows all things because He ordains all things, then God must by necessity be the author of sin.

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

FutureAndAHope said:
No one plans evil from before creation. God in His foreknowledge knows that evil will occur within a free will system, within constraints that He has bound.

I agree, but Calvinism does not. Calvinism says God planned specific sins before creation.

FutureAndAHope said:
Luke 17:1 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!

We see God adding constraints as man fails to do as He desires in:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

God cut the age of man because He found 120 years was like a cutoff point of true repentance.

God writes the stories not man, what are you trying to say? I am very confused by your speech.

What I'm saying is that if the future was already settled before the creation of the world, then God was the one that settled it, and if He did, He is fully responsible for any evil actions committed by His future creations, who have no choice but to faithfully commit each sin planned by God for them. Since they weren't there at the creation of the world to plan such sinful actions, only the planner can be held responsible.

Since I don't believe God is that planner, and I don't believe any other planner existed at the time, the only conclusion is that not everything was planned from before the world was created, and therefore God didn't know everything we would do from before the world began. If God didn't know EVERYTHING we would do, why is it a big step to say that He didn't even know if we (you and I specifically) would ever begin to exist, since we are the result of our parents' actions, who were the result of their parents' actions back to Adam and Eve.

If God didn't even know whether we, specifically, would exist, He could hardly have known whether we would believe in Christ.

FutureAndAHope said:
If you look back to my previous posts you can see how I explain this.

Your doctrine covers the Love of God with a [put your own grumpy terms here] idea. If there is no free will there is no such thing as "love", love is a free choice. A God who forces people to hell with no chance is not love.

I'm not sure what doctrine you are ascribing to me, since I am comparing two doctrines, and then adding a third. I agree with your assessment about "love", free choice, and God.

FutureAndAHope said:
Open AI says it this way:

Premise 1: If humans do not have free will, then love is meaningless. Premise 2: Love is not meaningless (e.g. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, John 3:16). Conclusion: Therefore, humans have free will.

This argument appeals to the idea that love involves choosing to care for and be committed to another person. If we do not have free will, then our ability to choose to love would be undermined, as we would be predetermined to either love or not love certain people. However, the Bible consistently presents love as a choice that we must make, suggesting that we do indeed have free will.

I agree with that assessment, too.

My point is that God's knowing everything that we will ever do is akin to someone planning everything we will do, and if God doesn't plan for us to sin (which He doesn't), then either someone else did (and I don't believe there was someone else planning sin for us before the world existed and before I existed), or our sins are spontaneous, coming from our own desires and failures at the time, and hence not knowable before the world began.

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

maxamir said:
Man was indeed made in the image and likeness of God and was called very good (Gen 1:31) but after the Fall, man lost the image of God which is not man's humanity but true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10) which God Himself confirmed when He stated that man had become only evil continually (Gen 6:5).

Everyone is born spiritually dead in the cursed image of Adam (Gen 5:3), slaves to sin and Satan, his children, bearing his evil image and the image of God is only restored to man by grace through faith in Christ Jesus who is the Image of God (2 Cor 4:4) which is why Christ said that men must be born again, because we are all born in the devil's image and desperately need the grace of God.

Any image without HIs likeness is a counterfeit of the true image of God.

If man lost all aspects of the image of God, then why did God protect men from murder based on their being created in the image of God?
Gen 9:6
“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

John Mullally · Apr 1, 2023

maxamir said:
The universal verses you quoted point to people from all nations, tribes and tongues without distinction and not without exception. The Scriptures plainly state that Christ came to save His people from their sin (Mat 1:21) and laid down His life for His sheep and said that not all were His sheep in John 10. John even declared in 1 Jn 3:10 that there are children of God but also children of the devil because all are conceived in sin and born in the image of the devil and only those who are born again by grace are made into children of God in whom the image of God is restored which was lost in the Fall.

All people here means all people, not all types of people - unless you can defend that from the context.

I will argue from 1 Timothy 2:4. In 1 Timothy 2:1, Paul argues for praying for all people and gives reasons for that in verses 2-6 that follow. So if all people means only all types of people in verse 4, then Paul is commanding believers to pray for all kinds of people in verse 1 and 6 s well. And praying for all those in authority in verse 2 means praying for all kinds of people in authority. In addition, Paul does not contrast different kinds of people anywhere in 1 Timothy - there is no mention of contrasting Jews and Gentiles in that book. The closest we see to that is Paul saying he is teacher of the Gentiles in 1 Timothy 2:7. There is no mention of Jews in that book.

1 Timothy 2:I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

This is commentary from leading Calvinist preacher Charles H. Spurgeon on 1 Timothy 2:4:

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. “All men,” say they,—”that is, some men”: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men. “All men,” say they; “that is, some of all sorts of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all sorts of men” if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the “alls” according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.

maxamir · Apr 1, 2023

John Mullally said:
All people here means all people, not all types of people - unless you can defend that from the context.

I will argue from 1 Timothy 2:4. In 1 Timothy 2:1, Paul argues for praying for all people and gives reasons for that in verses 2-6 that follow. So if all people means only all types of people in verse 4, then Paul is commanding believers to pray for all kinds of people in verse 1 and 6 s well. And praying for all those in authority in verse 2 means praying for all kinds of people in authority. In addition, Paul does not contrast different kinds of people anywhere in 1 Timothy - there is no mention of contrasting Jews and Gentiles in that book. The closest we see to that is Paul saying he is teacher of the Gentiles in 1 Timothy 2:7. There is no mention of Jews in that book.

1 Timothy 2:I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

This is commentary from leading Calvinist preacher Charles H. Spurgeon on 1 Timothy 2:4:

What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. “All men,” say they,—”that is, some men”: as if the Holy Ghost could not have said “some men” if he had meant some men. “All men,” say they; “that is, some of all sorts of men”: as if the Lord could not have said “all sorts of men” if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written “all men,” and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the “alls” according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth.

The Lord Jesus Christ does not pray for everyone in His high priestly prayer but only for those who are given to Him (John 17:9) who are His elect whom He loves (John 13:1) and not every person in the world because He knows His people but we do not know whom God has chosen unto eternal life and are commanded to preach the Gospel to every person even though it is an aroma of death unto death to some for their greater accountability and condemnation.

Either there is contradiction in Scripture or one of us is wrong. The Scriptures overwhelmingly prove that Christ came to secure salvation for His people and not just make salvation possible for men to choose Him because it is impossible for men to do so (Mark 10:27).

If you deem that God desires all to be saved then why did Christ rejoice and thank His Father for justly blinding some and said it was good to do so?

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

Spurgeon admits to being inconsistent with this verse but there are many starting with Augustine seen in the link below who take it in its proper immediate and overall context.

Quotes on I Timothy 2:4

maxamir · Apr 1, 2023

Derf said:
If man lost all aspects of the image of God, then why did God protect men from murder based on their being created in the image of God?
Gen 9:6
“Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

because man has the ability to once again bear the image of God in Christ Jesus, therefore men are not to be treated like animals who were never made in His image.

Please read my article below and let me know where you disagree.

The True Image of God

John Mullally · Apr 1, 2023

maxamir said:
The Lord Jesus Christ does not pray for everyone in His high priestly prayer but only for those who are given to Him (John 17:9) who are His elect whom He loves (John 13:1) and not every person in the world because He knows His people but we do not know whom God has chosen unto eternal life and are commanded to preach the Gospel to every person even though it is an aroma of death unto death to some for their greater accountability and condemnation.

Although Jesus indeed indiscriminately prayed for people in other prayerful petitions, such as praying for the forgiveness of His crucifiers at Luke 23:34, in this particular petition, Jesus specifically said that He does “not ask on behalf of the world,” but rather asks on behalf of those whom God had given to Him, which—based upon the context—was evidently referring to His disciples, with the intent that through them, “the world may believe that You sent Me.” (John 17:21) By virtue of the disciples that God had given to Jesus, this shows that God uses determinative means to ensure that His message is sent, even if it takes miracles, blinding lights or a big fish, indeed, whatever it takes to ensure that His message is delivered.

maxamir said:
Either there is contradiction in Scripture or one of us is wrong. The Scriptures overwhelmingly prove that Christ came to secure salvation for His people and not just make salvation possible for men to choose Him because it is impossible for men to do so (Mark 10:27).

Of course, God is involved in people's salvation. Jesus's crucifixion draws all people unto Him (John 12:32). Jesus made atonement for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2). Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:7-11). Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the Gospel to all people (Matthew 28:16-20). And the Gospel is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16-17).

maxamir said:
If you deem that God desires all to be saved then why did Christ rejoice and thank His Father for justly blinding some and said it was good to do so?

Before Calvary, God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus (1 Corinthians 2:8) - thus, the Father was not interested in the Jewish leaders repenting and the Father was not interested in revealing His plan to redeem mankind. Even the disciples did not understand their future role in the Church until after Calvary. After Calvary, Peter preached the Gospel to some of those who crucified Jesus, who would then go on to join the new Church (Acts 2:36-41). Also after Calvary the only one blinding people to the Gospel is Satan (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) and Paul does not rejoice over that.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

maxamir said:
Spurgeon admits to being inconsistent with this verse but there are many starting with Augustine seen in the link below who take it in its proper immediate and overall context.

Smoking Gun: Quoting a section from your link (see below): Augustine clearly twists 1 Timothy 2:4 ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation. 1 Timothy 2:4 is very clear and powerfully refutes Calvinism.

Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He ‘will have all men to be saved’ [I Tim. 2:4], although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished.

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

maxamir said:
because man has the ability to once again bear the image of God in Christ Jesus, therefore men are not to be treated like animals who were never made in His image.

Please read my article below and let me know where you disagree.

The True Image of God

Luke 20:19-26 KJV — And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them. And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor. And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly: Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Whose image is Jesus saying they were? If God's, were they not of the rebrobate, whose father was the devil and who wanted to kill Jesus?

Derf · Apr 1, 2023

maxamir said:
because man has the ability to once again bear the image of God in Christ Jesus, therefore men are not to be treated like animals who were never made in His image.

Please read my article below and let me know where you disagree.

The True Image of God

Plus, if they had lost the image of God completely, and if God could raise up children of Abraham (or even greater, those made in the image of God) out of stones, why not just allow them to be killed like animals?

Plus, Paul makes the case that man is in God's image still, even though we are yet to be made into His image again.
1 Corinthians 11:7 KJV — For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1 Corinthians 15:49 KJV — And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also [future tense] bear the image of the heavenly.

If you think to make 11:7 applicable only to believers, think again, because then women aren't returned to the image of God like men are, in your paradigm.

maxamir · Apr 2, 2023

John Mullally said:
Although Jesus indeed indiscriminately prayed for people in other prayerful petitions, such as praying for the forgiveness of His crucifiers at Luke 23:34, in this particular petition, Jesus specifically said that He does “not ask on behalf of the world,” but rather asks on behalf of those whom God had given to Him, which—based upon the context—was evidently referring to His disciples, with the intent that through them, “the world may believe that You sent Me.” (John 17:21) By virtue of the disciples that God had given to Jesus, this shows that God uses determinative means to ensure that His message is sent, even if it takes miracles, blinding lights or a big fish, indeed, whatever it takes to ensure that His message is delivered.

Of course, God is involved in people's salvation. Jesus's crucifixion draws all people unto Him (John 12:32). Jesus made atonement for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2). Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement (John 16:7-11). Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the Gospel to all people (Matthew 28:16-20). And the Gospel is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16-17).

Before Calvary, God had to get Satan to unwittingly crucify Jesus (1 Corinthians 2:8) - thus, the Father was not interested in the Jewish leaders repenting and the Father was not interested in revealing His plan to redeem mankind. Even the disciples did not understand their future role in the Church until after Calvary. After Calvary, Peter preached the Gospel to some of those who crucified Jesus, who would then go on to join the new Church (Acts 2:36-41). Also after Calvary the only one blinding people to the Gospel is Satan (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) and Paul does not rejoice over that.

1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Smoking Gun: Quoting a section from your link (see below): Augustine clearly twists 1 Timothy 2:4 ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation. 1 Timothy 2:4 is very clear and powerfully refutes Calvinism.

Accordingly, when we hear and read in Scripture that He ‘will have all men to be saved’ [I Tim. 2:4], although we know well that all men are not saved, we are not on that account to restrict the omnipotence of God, but are rather to understand the Scripture, ‘Who will have all men to be saved,’ as meaning that no man is saved unless God wills his salvation: not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will, but that no man is saved apart from His will; and that, therefore, we should pray Him to will our salvation, because if He will it, it must necessarily be accomplished.

God indeed willed the salvation of His elect before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), people from throughout the whole world and not just the nation of Israel which is why John 3:16 is a rebuke to Nicodemus and all the jews who forgot that the promise to Abraham was that all nations would be blessed through him and his seed in Christ but that does not mean every person in every nation but His remnant which He makes willing in the day of His power (Psalm 11:3) not theirs.

God desires that prayer be made for all men, including kings and those in authority (1 Tim 4:1-2) because this is the means that God uses to save the people He desires to save throughout the whole world (v4) because many are called in the Gospel but few are chosen, and these are not the reprobate whom God hates (Psalm 5:5, 11:5) and who are made for the day of doom (Pro 16:4) and will glorify the goodness of His perfect, eternal, righteous and holy justice forever (Rom 9:22) or do you not believe at all in the doctrine of predestination (Rom 8:29-30)?

God does everything He pleases to do (115:3, 135:6) and His sovereign will of command works towards His eternal decree including wilfully blinding some.

2Th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

Please tell me whether you believe that God loves everyone, even those He eternally casts into Hell (Luke 12:5)?

How many meanings are there that you know of for kosmos (world) in Scripture?

41 Bible Verses about election, to salvation

maxamir · Apr 2, 2023

Derf said:
Luke 20:19-26 KJV — And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them. And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor. And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly: Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no? But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me? Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar's. And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's. And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.

Whose image is Jesus saying they were? If God's, were they not of the rebrobate, whose father was the devil and who wanted to kill Jesus?

this verse is about paying taxes to whom it is due and giving to God the things He commands and not about anyone being in God's image.

Please answer these simple questions.

Is man good......Yes or No

Is God good.....Yes or No

Is the image of God good ( Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)....Yes or No

Is man in the image of God....Yes or No

maxamir · Apr 2, 2023

Derf said:
Plus, if they had lost the image of God completely, and if God could raise up children of Abraham (or even greater, those made in the image of God) out of stones, why not just allow them to be killed like animals?

Plus, Paul makes the case that man is in God's image still, even though we are yet to be made into His image again.
1 Corinthians 11:7 KJV — For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

1 Corinthians 15:49 KJV — And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also [future tense] bear the image of the heavenly.

If you think to make 11:7 applicable only to believers, think again, because then women aren't returned to the image of God like men are, in your paradigm.

God killed every man, woman, child and animal in the flood besides His remnant to display His holy hatred for evil and His holy love in saving His people from that evil which is demonstrated more prominently in the cross-work of Christ for His people made of dust, rescued from the curse and who are conformed to His image (Rom 8:29) regardless of sex.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

God is Spirit (John 4:24) and His image is His Spirit which God removed from Adam when he died spiritually as promised (Gen 2:17) and only those who are born again, are filled with His spirit and bear His holy image.

Did you read the article?

Is Calvinism a heresy?

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