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I agree!That implies Bf52 (or you) misinterpret James use of "works" as a carnal faith instead of a God given Faith. Bf52
apparently believes that "works" is a poor translation when referring to the evidence of man's post-salvation Faith.
"God's Faith given" results in "works" (good fruit Gal. 5:22-23) being manifest with one's post-salvation Faith.
"Works" in James 2:14-26 refers to the evidence of "God's faith given" ... not carnal works or religious works.
No need to wonder...I don't want to derail the thread, but as much as what you say sound reasonable I wonder if we aren't supposed to know we are saved...
You don't need to answer.
There is a lot of scripture you don’t seem to be knowledgeable of. You are using reason or logic, which is man’s reasoning, instead of recognizing God is Spirit, and His ways are Higher than man’s. That’s why we need to be taught by the Spirit.If its God given Faith then one is regenerated, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. If a person bases their Justification before Gods Law and Justice on their faith, act of believing, its works based Salvation.
If you condition salvation on your works, that a false salvationOk, continue to focus on one part of Scripture while ignoring the rest. along with ignoring the historic teachings of Christianity, reason, et al. Any right works (not works of the law) come from and are motivated by God. And yet they are necessary. Because we can avoid them, we can fail to do His will, we can fail to love, to put it another way. Scripture conditions salvation on those works of grace.
In Matt 19 Jesus tells the rich young man that he must obey the commandments to enter life, In Matt 25 the wicked and lazy servant who refused to invest his talents was thrown outside, and in the same chapter those who did "for the least of these" entered the kingdom.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom 2:13
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14
Faith leads to a changed heart and doing, or else it's worthless, un-salvific. Paul:
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing."
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6
It's God's work...in us. Augustine:
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."
“If, then, your good merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His own gifts.”
If you condition your salvation on something you do, its works religion !There is a lot of scripture you don’t seem to be knowledgeable of. You are using reason or logic, which is man’s reasoning, instead of recognizing God is Spirit, and His ways are Higher than man’s. That’s why we need to be taught by the Spirit.
Thats works religion, denying Grace Salvation.If you don't work you won't be saved.
One gets the impression Bf52 may actually believe he has more spiritual wisdom than did the writer of James 2:14-26.. Not unusual as there's some controversy who actually penned this letter ... the on-going state of scholarly Christianity.There is a lot of scripture you(Bf52) don’t seem to be knowledgeable of.
Referring to himself as "Brightfame" is in and of itself a self-righteous 'work' (his own doing). Some Christians are reluctant to be taught by the Spirit via the inspired words of James if they consider themselves to be more learned.You(Bf52) are using reason or logic, which is man’s reasoning, instead of recognizing God is Spirit, and His ways are Higher than man’s. That’s why we need to be taught by the Spirit.
I would say you are missing the Gospel, and cleave to a gospel of works.Nope, you've misunderstood a big part of the gospel.
I agree!
You two have it pretty nailed down it would seem.That implies Bf52 (or you) misinterpret James use of "works" as a carnal faith instead of a God given Faith. Bf52
apparently believes that "works" is a poor translation when referring to the evidence of man's post-salvation Faith.
"God's Faith given" results in "works" (good fruit Gal. 5:22-23) being manifest with one's post-salvation Faith.
"Works" in James 2:14-26 refers to the evidence of "God's faith given" ... not carnal works or religious works.
Unfortunately there will always be religious legalists that go out of their way finding reason to dispute the Word Of GOD (e.g. RCC vs Protestant, Baptist vs Pentecostal, Calvin vs Arminian). GOD will have the final say (judgement.You two have it pretty nailed down it would seem.
Is the deep cry from the heart of a repentant sinner not a 'work' that is accounted for by the Heart of GODBut to be clear there is no works with INITIAL SALVATION for that is a GIFT. It isn't about your faith bringing you salvation, it is Gods
Is the deep cry from the heart of a repentant sinner (leading to salvation) a 'work' initiated by himself or initiated by God or by both?Is the deep cry from the heart of a repentant sinner not a 'work' that is accounted for by the Heart of GOD
As it is election according to grace, the repentance is a work initiated by God as He is the elector. Pauls example of his own conversionIs the deep cry from the heart of a repentant sinner (leading to salvation) a 'work' initiated by himself or initiated by God or by both?
With God all things are possible whether of a Calvinist or Arminianist persuasion when it comes to being born again.
Wouldn't a born again new creation in Christ Jesus (post-Salvation) agree that "good" works are evidence of the manifest Fruit of the Holy Spirit ... whether previously of a Calvin or Arminian persuasion?
This is true-and has been the consistent teaching of the ancient churches along with the ECFs from day one, that God initiates everything.As it is election according to grace, the repentance is a work initiated by God as He is the elector.
Agreed, as He works all things according to the counsel of His own will. Eph 1:11This is true-and has been the consistent teaching of the ancient churches along with the ECFs from day one, that God initiates everything.
That goes to show how deceptive is legalistic religiousity without "faith" ... Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their [active] faith [springing from confidence in Him], He said, “Man, your sins are forgiven.”As it is election according to grace, the repentance is a work initiated by God as He is the elector. Pauls example of his own conversion
confirms that position.
He was not repentant at all, in fact was a persecutor of the church, and a blasphemer of the name of Jesus.
Not sure I follow your reasoning.That goes to show how deceptive is legalistic religiousity without "faith" ... Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their [active] faith [springing from confidence in Him], He said, “Man, your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 5:30 The Pharisees and their scribes [seeing those with whom He was associating] began murmuring in discontent to His disciples, asking, “Why are you eating and drinking with the tax collectors and sinners [including non-observant Jews]?” 31 And Jesus replied to them, “It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but [only] those who are sick. 32 I did not come to call the [self-proclaimed] righteous [who see no need to repent], but sinners to repentance [to change their old way of thinking, to turn from sin and to seek God and His righteousness].”46 But Jesus said, “Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me.” 47 When the woman saw that she had not escaped notice, she came trembling and fell down before Him, and declared in the presence of all the people the reason why she had touched Him, and how she had been immediately healed. 48 And He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace.”Now when Jesus heard this, He was amazed and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. (Faith of the Roman Centurian)Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God ...Word should be capitalized as in John 1:1= Christ Jesus ... John 1:14).
Sounds like you saying that ones sins are forgiven on the basis of God seeing their active faith, thats works/merit salvation.That goes to show how deceptive is legalistic religiousity without "faith" ... Luke 5:20 When Jesus saw their [active] faith [springing from confidence in Him], He said, “Man, your sins are forgiven.”
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