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Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

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Speedwell

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O, wait, i misunderstood you there.
You meant the majority of 'Christians' says the same as the Godless say in regards to Genesis.
Yes, so it seems.
And for all the wrong reasons... :(

But wait, theistic evolution is not ToE.
So i guess you try to mix things then.
I suppose many do that.
I'm not sure what to think of theistic evolution, i guess it's the range between ToE (which is atheistic / naturalistic) and creation.
There is however no compelling evidence for evolution at all, except perhaps for some micro-evolution.
The Godless really don't have much to say about Genesis, unless you try to shove it up their kids' noses in science class.
 
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Hieronymus

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No. It would help if you actually took the time to read what I and others have written inbthis thread. Genesis tells us that God created everything. Science tells we Christians who ascribe to theistic evolution how He did it.
No it doesn't.
Who does not read here?
NATURALISTIC MODEL = GODLESS
 
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Speedwell

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You apparently don't know what naturalism is.
It would be interesting to know what your philosophical education was like. Perhaps that would explain why you think you can redefine widely used philosophical terms to suit yourself.
 
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Hieronymus

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No it doesn't.
Who does not read here?
NATURALISTIC MODEL = GODLESS
Sorry 'bout the caps...

Sure, you can say: Well, God influenced it or used evolution, but that doesn't change the fact that you base this belief on the naturalistic model of the ToE.
WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT???

it's probably better i leave this conversation...
Sorry about the sharp edges, folks.
 
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Archivist

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No it doesn't.
Who does not read here?
NATURALISTIC MODEL = GODLESS

You go ahead and think that. You are wrong, but that is your business.
 
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Hieronymus

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Science tells we Christians who ascribe to theistic evolution how He did it.
This statement in particular though, is simply not true.
it is the assumption the well funded part of popular science is
- trying to prove
- indoctrinating us with regardless of evidence.

And guess what science is trying to feed here?
A Godless model.
 
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Hieronymus

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This statement in particular though, is also simply not true.
it is the assumption the well funded part of popular science is
- trying to prove
And so, have they proven it?
No, absolutely not.
But:
- indoctrinating us with regardless of evidence.
And so they succeed.
And guess what science is trying to feed here?
A Godless model.
Or would you guys say the likes of Dawkins is not an atheist and that he sees a possible hand of God in evolution?
How about most scientist in that field that produce and sell these models?
 
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Archivist

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This statement in particular though, is simply not true.
it is the assumption the well funded part of popular science is
- trying to prove
- indoctrinating us with regardless of evidence.

And guess what science is trying to feed here?
A Godless model.
You go ahead and think that.
 
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Archivist

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Then why don't you and others tell me where or how God has any roll in evolution theory?
It has been explained throghout the thread. God created everything. On Earth He used evolution to create all life.
 
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Speedwell

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This statement in particular though, is also simply not true.
it is the assumption the well funded part of popular science is
- trying to prove
- indoctrinating us with regardless of evidence.

And guess what science is trying to feed here?
A Godless model.
No, it won't work. We clearly know more about the philosophy of science than you do.

You want to "purify" Christianity by driving from it anyone who won't subject himself to the discipline of your wretched Bible doctrine, by convincing him that he can't have faith in Christ without it.

If you want it to work with this crowd, you're going to have to get better arguments.
 
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Hieronymus

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No, it won't work. We clearly know more about the philosophy of science than you do.
That's what you keep saying, but it's all you say.
You haven't refuted the content of my comments with actual arguments (i.m.o.).
You want to "purify" Christianity
Haha! If only i could....
by driving from it anyone who won't subject himself to the discipline of your wretched Bible doctrine, by convincing him that he can't have faith in Christ without it.
It's not my doctrine, obviously.
And it is you that drives away from it.
Read Genesis 1 and see it is confirmed throughout Scripture.
If you want it to work with this crowd, you're going to have to get better arguments.
Perhaps (probably), but how about your own arguments?
You all assume evolution is as good as proven, but even evolutionary scientists will eventually admit that that is just not so.
You can not answer me either where God fits in ToE.
 
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Hieronymus

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I guess i also dodged this question:
Here is a question for you that one of your Creationist colleagues just dodged: Do you think that [you would accept it] if science could definitively show that life arose through natural causes that God's direct authorship of life would be ruled out?
Before i answer this, let me ask you this:
Wouldn't you say God including Christ are liars and / or false claimers if they have no direct authorship of life?

I would have to accept it if creation fails the test, and i would probably denounce my Christianity.
 
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Archivist

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Then why does He lie about that?
He doesn't lie. It is an allegory.

Was there an actual good Samaritan? I don't think so--it was an allegory told by Jesus to make a point. Jesus was not lying.
 
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Hieronymus

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Does it really matter? No, it isn't a salvation issue, but it is an understanding God matter and it does tie in with growing as a Christian.

From where I stand - far more as you describe yourself further down the thread than the YEC belief - it looks to me like the YEC faction seems to think YECreationism is in fact a salvation issue; no one who fails to believe it really believes in the Bible at all. I do not agree.

I engage at times arguing for a larger view of God. I do believe God wants me involved in this to challenge mostly undecided people to look at the larger picture and grow as God intends. I know God encourages all His followers to be the most discerning and thinking (not always coinciding with 'educated') people as possible.

That is my reason for continuing to argue and 'convert' some to my view. I will not speculate on the motives of the YEC side, other than to say after discussing and arguing the issue (both logically and with screaming and waving of arms) for over fifty years now, I am convinced of their motivations. And the motivations are less than charitable to express. Something along the line of Matthew 23:15.
I think that is sometimes the case, indeed.
But we're supposed to test everything though, aren't we?
The explanatory power of a creating God is simply much stronger than ascribing it to dead unconscious processes.
Isn't that obvious?
Or do you have no knowledge of the universe and living nature in particular?
It a whole lot more complex, efficient and purposeful than anything mankind can create using their intelligence, skills, plans, materials and will.
We're speaking potentially perfect nano-technology here, a language that is implemented (DNA) and super efficient data storage, forming systems that form systems that are a part of bigger systems in a solar system.

Why would a Christian subscribe to Godless models for its explanation (concerning its origins)?
I think only when you can't believe God can do such a thing.
But then choose for dead unconscious processes, because popular science and their belief-system would have you believe so?

But wait...
I tend to forget that i was once an evolution believer too.
And it has taken me a couple of years to get de-programmed from the near mandatory beliefs about our reality.
And the most difficult part to acknowledge is that the world is selling us lies under the guise of science.
It's not even the evidence for creation and against evolution that is the problem.
it's the realisation that most of the western world believes the biggest lie ever sold.
And that's peer pressure basically...
 
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Hieronymus

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He doesn't lie. It is an allegory.
No, it's not allegorical to evolution.
Just read it.
it says that He made everything, every kind of organism to reproduce after its kind.
Then He formed man in his image from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life in his nose.
Was there an actual good Samaritan? I don't think so--it was an allegory told by Jesus to make a point. Jesus was not lying.
Who knows if there was this good Samaritan one day in history?
Indeed, the story is told to portray what loving your neighbour means.
But Genesis 1 is the narrative of the beginning of our reality, the beginning of time and matter, formed and filled to get what was finished on the 7th day.
It doesn't portray or symbolize anything else than that.
It is only referred to as actual history throughout the Bible.
Now i really don't know how long those first days were, but it had been evening and it had been morning every day of that week.
The 7th day God rested and sanctified that day, the sabbath.
 
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Speedwell

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But Genesis 1 is the narrative of the beginning of our reality, the beginning of time and matter, formed and filled to get what was finished on the 7th day.
It doesn't portray or symbolize anything else than that.
I hope that is an error you have fallen into on your own. It would dismay me to learn that such a thing was actually being taught as doctrine by any Christian church.

Fortunately, millions of Christians know better.
f
 
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Hieronymus

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Belief in a literal interpretation of the Creation story of Genesis has ABSOLUTELY nothing whatsoever to do with SALVATION. Nada, zip, nothing. Fundamentalists who try to make this argument are trying to "elasticize" (stretch) the Scripture way beyond anything explicitly stated.
Genesis 1 explicitly states God created everything and all organisms to reproduce after their kind.
Nowhere in Scripture is this disputed, many times it is confirmed and repeated.
 
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