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Featured Is belief in the creation story a salvation issue?

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Archivist, Jul 26, 2016.

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  1. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

    +8,248
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    Yes, absolutely YES! :)
    Adam and Havah spoke with Yahweh, walked with Him in the garden, and learned from Him directly.
    They talked with their sons including Cain and Abel....
    and other descendants, for many decades or centuries even...
    and yes,
    their bodies and brains were is no much better condition than anyone today !
    (they were as far smarter than us than adults today are smarter than 6 year olds, or close (maybe MORE!) )
     
  2. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    1.Most people don't add up and count the generations.
    2.Most people don't read the genealogies.
    3.No one in the new testament refers to the age of the earth.
    4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.
    5. All the important tenets of Christianity are mentioned by Jesus
    and there are multiple points of view to cover all the major aspects
    of the faith.
    6. If anything in the scriptures had foundational value, "between six and eight thousand years"
    would not be one of those things.

    The Young earth concept fails all these tests. It is sloppy reading.
    All YEC's are afraid to address these issues, 1-6.
    It's not that "I win" the argument. Nobody even attempts
    to dispute these points.
     
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Most Christians do not have a Bible. The Bible is not God. Just ask the Bible.

    19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Nobody doubts your ability to create something out of nothing with a calculator.
    The issue is if this is what Jesus teaches, or if this is what the disciples taught.
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God did the research:

    19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
     
  6. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

    +1,693
    Pentecostal
    Here's an interesting thought. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void.

    How long was it this way before God began to create the planet with the six day creative process? Could it have remained that way for a very,long time thus making the earth older before man and animals were created on it?

    Just a thought for discussion.

    Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
     
  7. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    The Old Testament has an unbroken chain of relative dates.

    The Old Testament is a written oral tradition, these lists were originally memorized every generation.

    Which is anecdotal nonsense.

    If there was something compelling you would have quoted it.

    I noticed you didn't mention any of them.

    The times are there for a reason and dismissing the time line dismisses the historicity.

    It's better then rambling off the cuff rationalizations.

    No just got better things to do.

    Your not making any points, your begging the question of proof on your hands and knees
     
  8. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I've always thought that, the whole thing with the age of the earth and the cosmos has always been a diversion. All it says is that God created the heavens and the earth, 'in the beginning'. Now from Adam onward there is a long list of relative dates, but the original creation is another matter entirely.
     
  9. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Some people have a higher opinion of the New Testament teachings.
    4. Many passages refer to an ancient earth.
    Not one "young".

    -If there was something compelling you would have quoted it.

    Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
    ... with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
    the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
    //biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 16k

    Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...
    ... The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed-- but he marches
    on forever. ... The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. ...
    //biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 17k

    Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...
    ... Your father's blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains,
    than the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these ...
    //biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 18k

    Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...
    ... You are the radiant one. You are more majestic than the ancient mountains. .... ...
    //biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 15k


    Joel 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and ...
    ... Like dawn spreading across the mountains a large and mighty army comes, such
    as never was in ancient times nor ever will be in ages to come. ...
    //biblehub.com/joel/2-2.htm - 18k


    Ezekiel 36:11 I will increase the number of people and animals ...
    ... O mountains of Israel, I will bring people to live on you once again ... I will cause
    you to be inhabited as in ancient times, and will do more good for you than at ...





    5. All the important tenets of Christianity are mentioned by Jesus
    and there are multiple points of view to cover all the major aspects
    of the faith.
    -I noticed you didn't mention any of them.

    Note that each tenant below is backed up with 2-40 references.
    YEC is directly unsupported by anything in scripture. But if
    you enjoy finding hidden truths by adding up numbers, you'll
    love this truth you've been ignoring: The Alpha~Numeric Mystery of Chai.



    The Basic Tenets of Christianity
    Table of Contents
    1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father

    2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works

    3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ

    5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave

    6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity

    8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God

    9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation

    10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell

    12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  10. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    I see the Hebrew for ancient means this..

    1. east, antiquity, front, that which is before, aforetime
      1. front, from the front or east, in front, mount of the East
      2. ancient time, aforetime, ancient, from of old, earliest time
      3. anciently, of old (adverb)
      4. beginning
      5. east adv
    2. eastward, to or toward the East

    -----
    So, if a range or mountain was here from the beginning, or was east, I guess it would be ancient. Nothing to do with millions of imaginary years old of course.
     
  11. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    So if my case is weak regarding use of the word ancient,
    and we ignore the rest of the bible:

    everlasting hills
    and the age-old hills
    The age-old hills collapse
    the bounty of the age-old hills.

    do you have anything to counter with outside of the teachings of a religious cult?
    [​IMG]Black boyfriends matter!




    Note that Bible based doctrine below has some research to it.
    It's not like you to ignore the rest of the contents of a post
    unless you are beflumwiched.

    The Basic Tenets of Christianity
    Table of Contents
    1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
    2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
    3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God
    4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
    5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
    6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ
    7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
    8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
    9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
    10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit
    11 – The Doctrine of Hell
    12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  12. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    No. Everlasting does not just mean ancient.

    Hey Patriarchs reached old age too. No millions of years involved.

    When the mountains get flattened in the end, even the older hills would be involved. Nothing to do with wrongly attained imaginary time invoked by the wise men of so called science.

    ??? If we don't believe in fairy tales invented millions of years we are a cult??

    More than white ones?


    The basic tenets of faith in Christ are alright. I was commenting on a possible allusion to the creation of Jesus being millions of years old.
     
  13. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    Since we know the world was made for man, and man was made the fifth day, and the other days of creation were clearly denoted as real days with mornings and evenings, you can't insert imaginary time on a whim for no reason.
     
  14. rjs330

    rjs330 Well-Known Member

    +1,693
    Pentecostal
    The words used to prescribe age old in relation to hills is the Hebrew word olam or owlam. The word is a reference to always and everlasting. It's a word used to refer to something that existed from the beginning and lasts perpetually. It is not a word that means ancient as in,really old or having existed,for millions of billions of years. It refers primarily to the eternality of the hills or mountains in this context.

    Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk
     
  15. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    So you can't find anything that supports a young earth either?
    How about you count up the years yourself. What number do you get
    and do you expect illiterate listeners to count the years and become converts?
    Nothing like these items with multiple references by many authors?

    The Basic Tenets of Christianity
    Table of Contents
    1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
    2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
    3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
    5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
    6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
    8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
    9 – We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
    10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell
    12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  16. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That's fine. I know both words.
    What value is there if a person speaks about
    evolution with no Biblical support? How can
    YEC's claim to be any different?

    The Basic Tenets of Christianity
    Table of Contents
    1 – Jesus Christ is the Only Way to Eternal Salvation With God the Father
    2- We Are Saved by Grace Through Faith – Not by Works
    3 –Jesus Christ is the Son of God 4- The Incarnation of Jesus Christ
    5 – The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus Christ From the Grave
    6 –The Ascension of Jesus Christ 7 –The Doctrine of the Trinity
    8 – The Holy Bible is the Inspired and Infallible Word of God
    9 –
    We Are Baptized With the Holy Spirit at the Moment of Salvation
    10 – Regeneration by the Holy Spirit 11 – The Doctrine of Hell
    12 – The 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ Back to our Earth
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  17. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    If you speak outside of scripture and trust in outside sources
    ignore plain scripture, and invent young to replace ancient or everlasting.
    Then you are without excuse.

    You seem unable to apply scripture to reality.

    19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

    How does this follow your genealogy sermon?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2016
  18. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    What value is there in inventing millions of years to try and determine how one translates a word in the bible to try and compromise with manscience?
     
  19. dad

    dad On the winning side

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    If you see someone do that cite an example, no idea what you are trying to say.

    Reality is not determined by belief based so called science and how it wants to overrule God.
    God's invisible qualities do not include electromagnetic force and gravity, and the strong nuclear force and such, do they? One quality He has is telling the truth, such as how He formed man.
    You seem to be confusing posters or something, I did not make any such sermon.
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    You get that from looking at the sky?

    19 For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

    20 For ever since the creation of the world...
    God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power
    and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
    being understood from His workmanship,
    so that men are without excuse.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
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