Is belief enough to be saved?

Albion said:

Exactly, but some are misled by verses that use the word "belief," thinking it means mere comprehension, not faith.

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That's why I made the observation on 'sin' as the thread starter appeared to link the matter of belief to works, and my observation on works is that we can not say we 'have' no sin and be 'in Truth.'

There is certainly a simple basis of measure to start on the subject of 'belief with works' with that 'fact' on the table. It tends to put 'works' into quick focus.

s

In uncertain times in our life, in trials and tribulations, in times when we don't know which way to go, in times that we feel overburdened, all we must do is go to the Lord and worship Him in the spirit and in truth, resting in His forgiveness and love, resting in the peace of God that surpasses all understanding.



Mt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice. 5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

squint said:

That's why I made the observation on 'sin' as the thread starter appeared to link the matter of belief to works, and my observation on works is that we can not say we 'have' no sin and be 'in Truth.'

There is certainly a simple basis of measure to start on the subject of 'belief with works' with that 'fact' on the table. It tends to put 'works' into quick focus.

s

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What does the efficacy of works vis-a-vis salvation have to do with sin or being in truth (whatever that means)?

It is written that Abraham believed God… Abraham believed what God had already told him, that belief was in the word of God AND he put that belief into action through works for justification and perfection of his faith.

The book of Romans tells us: “That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.” Belief accompanied by actions or works.

Revelation: "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Belief accompanied by actions or works that cost their lives.

Any persecuted church knows about works that accompanied faith. None of the early matyrs denied Christ and said "oh well I still believe I'm ok," they knew what works meant for the gospel sake.

I have spoken to Christians from Russia and Romania that were persecuted and imprisoned under the comunist eara. They all believed that their faith required these works and refused to deny Christ.

Habakk said:

It is written that Abraham believed God… Abraham believed what God had already told him, that belief was in the word of God AND he put that belief into action through works for justification and perfection of his faith.

The book of Romans tells us: “That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.” Belief accompanied by actions or works.

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The last sentence is not borne out by the verse you quoted there. It is apparent that when the word "belief" appears in the NT, it often--but not always--means faith. It also is not tied to works. The examples you are using in this post are, by and large, actions but not works in the theological sense.

Any persecuted church knows about works that accompanied faith. None of the early maters denied Christ and said "oh well I still believe I'm ok," they knew what works meant for the gospel sake.

I have spoken to Christians from Russia and Romania that were persecuted and imprisoned under the comunist eara. They all believed that their faith required these works and refused to deny Christ.

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That's a good example of what I was saying above. Accepting martyrdom is not an act of charity, mercy, compassion, etc. -- which is what "works" refer to. However, even if it were, the action is not what causes the martyr to be saved but the faith of the person involved.

We have several problems in this thread, not the least of which is having every contributor understand the meaning of faith, belief, and works.

Albion said:

What does the efficacy of works vis-a-vis salvation have to do with sin or being in truth (whatever that means)?

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Linking belief to works brings the first measure of truthful belief.

Want to link belief to works? TO be 'in Truth' is to speak honestly that we have sin.

Where should we list speaking honesty in relationship to works? And when we make that admittance honestly, how do our works measure UP on the scale of importance?

I always enjoy discussing works from a basis of honesty. Don't you?

s

What does Mt chapter 25 teach us about works of charity done in faith, or even works of obedience to Gods will? Anything?


Mt 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


Mt 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

squint said:

Linking belief to works brings the first measure of truthful belief.

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That would depend upon what kind of belief we are discussing.

Want to link belief to works? TO be 'in Truth' is to speak honestly that we have sin.

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Belief is not necessarily linked to truth. That's why I said that we have to be careful when using these terms. The devils believe but aren't in the truth, for instance.

Albion said:

Belief is not necessarily linked to truth.

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Yeah, we covered that ground already.

The connection for those who want to link belief to 'works' is the fact that we can not say we have no sin and be 'in Truth.'

That fact puts works into an honest perspective and is a continuing 'fair measure' of 'all works.'

s

Is it justification we seek, or is it the the Joy of the Lord we seek by being obedient to His will? Do we seek His Joy or our own justification by abstaining from our evil works of the flesh and by doing good works instead?

IMO, It has noting to do with being justified, it has everything to do with getting Close to the Lord that we love, by obeying Him.

Albion said:

Belief is not necessarily linked to truth. That's why I said that we have to be careful when using these terms. The devils believe but aren't in the truth, for instance.

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But belief is not found in lies either. As you said, the demons believe in God and tremble, we must do more than say we believe, we must Obey Gods will. Demons don't Obey Gods will, although they believe in God, they don't obey His will, although they can only do what he allows, because He is the almighty, there is none greater that Him.

As long as we are not seeking justification we can do all things in Christ who is our justification and strength, we can do good works for His good name. But we must do them in humility also, or we take His name in vain, because no one is good, no not one.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

B-74 said:

But belief is not found in lies either. As you said, the demons believe in God and tremble, we must do more than say we believe, we must Obey Gods will.

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Agreed. The word belief can't be a sumbling block to understanding God's will for us.

Demons don't Obey Gods will, although they believe in God, they don't obey His will

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Correct. They do not have faith, therefore it is impossible to be right with God.

As long as we are not seeking justification we can do all things in Christ who is our justification and strength, we can do good works for His good name. But we must do them in humility also, or we take His name in vain, because no one is good, no not one.

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OK, so long as we understand that works proceed from a lively and genuine faith and that such works do not contribute to our salvation.

B-74 said:

Is it justification we seek, or is it the the Joy of the Lord we seek by being obedient to His will? Do we seek His Joy or our own justification by abstaining from our evil works of the flesh and by doing good works instead?

IMO, It has noting to do with being justified, it has everything to do with getting Close to the Lord that we love, by obeying Him.

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It is impossible for a person who is not justified to do God's will.

Albion said:

It is impossible for a person who is not justified to do God's will.

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But is it possible for someone who is already justified to seek justification that they already have in the Blood of Christ?

Albion said:

OK, so long as we understand that works proceed from a lively and genuine faith and that such works do not contribute to our salvation.

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True, but the question needing answered is this: is our faith dead without works?

B-74 said:

True, but the question needing answered is this: is our faith dead without works?

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If that is the question, the answer is obviously "yes." Unfortunately, a whole lot of people and whole denominations misread that epistle to mean that works CONTRIBUTE to our salvation rather than merely flow from a real faith that, in itself, saves.

Albion said:

If that is the question, the answer is obviously "yes." Unfortunately, a whole lot of people and whole denominations misread that epistle to mean that works CONTRIBUTE to our salvation rather than merely flow from a real faith that, in itself, saves.

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I wonder if its more of a misunderstanding that isn't as big a problem as we think. I wonder, as long as one knows that they can never boast in anything and also that good works done in Jesus name is a good thing, does any other misunderstanding they may have about works and salvation really matter? The fact that we must do good works and can never boast in them is the most important thing we must understand. I wonder if and how the act of purposly choosing to do good works helps us abide in Christ.

Ishraqiyun said:

If a candle is burning it will glow. The glow doesn't make the candle burn but there is no burning without glowing. The two are related despite the fact that the glow isn't the cause of the burning. I see the same thing with works and salvation. Works could be thought of as glow which arise simultaneously with the burning. The ignition being an act of grace from God which allows both faith (ie trust in God), works, love, and knowledge of the Father which is Salvation.

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I like this analogy, but I would change the order of it somewhat.

If the candle is analogous to the heart, then the flame is faith. While the lighting of the candle may be an act of grace, Grace through faith is the melting of the wax, and as the wax melts the wick is exposed and the flame burns hotter, yielding more light. Works would be a form of light that is visible because of the burning flame, as is knowledge of God. But if we cover the flame so that no light is visible, we might extinguish it.

Albion said:

It is impossible for a person who is not justified to do God's will.

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I'm sorry, but this does not make sense whatsoever. How is one justifed?

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24


We are only justified if we do the LORD's will, and not before...