Is belief a choice?

GrowingSmaller · Jan 2, 2020

Also, there was a political bias study done so many years ago, which indicates the people don't use rational processes in the brain when contemplating challenges to political opinion. So much as emotional areas used in conflict resolution.

Emory Study Lights Up The Political Brain

Again faith is different to politics, just as its different to schizophrenia. But there may be some lessons to pick up?

public hermit · Jan 2, 2020

GrowingSmaller said:
Also, there was a political bias study done so many years ago, which indicates the people don't use rational processes in the brain when contemplating challenges to political opinion. So much as emotional areas used in conflict resolution.

Emory Study Lights Up The Political Brain

Again faith is different to politics, just as its different to schizophrenia. But there may be some lessons to pick up?

That challenges to political beliefs would light up emotional areas and not those associated with reasoning is not surprising, but I see the link you're making to faith commitments.

GrowingSmaller · Jan 3, 2020

It may have to do with the idea that faith is not a single belief, rather its a complex of interrelated beliefs and also behaviours. Like, a "web of belief" in the philosophy of science. With a WoB falsifying a single idea doesn't necessarily mean abandoning a whole theory, rather, adjustments can be made elsewhere in the WoB.

So, because faith is a complex, its difficult to "uproot" or "replant" in a single swoop. Like if you have a houseplant, repotting it you need to pay attention to the root system. That may be compared to faith beliefs, eg in God. Because there are roots stemming throughout the brain which have connections to this belief, then changing it is potentially linked to a lot of unconscious counter pressures.

public hermit · Jan 3, 2020

GrowingSmaller said:
It may have to do with the idea that faith is not a single belief, rather its a complex of interrelated beliefs and also behaviours. Like, a "web of belief" in the philosophy of science. With a WoB falsifying a single idea doesn't necessarily mean abandoning a whole theory, rather, adjustments can be made elsewhere in the WoB.

So, because faith is a complex, its difficult to "uproot" or "replant" in a single swoop. Like if you have a houseplant, repotting it you need to pay attention to the root system. That may be compared to faith beliefs, eg in God. Because there are roots stemming throughout the brain which have connections to this belief, then changing it is potentially linked to a lot of unconscious counter pressures.

I find this to be a really important point. We, as humans, don't have disparate, unconnected, beliefs. They are a complex web of interrelated beliefs. I tend to assume this is true across the board and not just for those of religious faith. But, it may be more or less for each individual, depending on how much self-reflection has occurred. There was a time in my life where I was basically living to work and make it to the weekend. I would not say I was very reflective or had a robust WoB that I could articulate. But, even then I came to the point where my way of living became very empty and life seemed grossly futile. Something was behind all of that.

I would be interested in getting an atheist's perspective on this. Most of my experience with atheists is that they are often very thoughtful and reflective. I want to say, their position in terms of not believing in a deity is the result of careful consideration, and so this idea of WoB would apply in this case as well. Atheism, per se, is not itself a WoB, due to the fact it concerns not believing one thing, i.e. that there is no God. Nonetheless, such careful consideration that ends in that position must entail a number of other salient, related beliefs. For instance, maybe a commitment to naturalism, and everything that entails. Or, materialism, and everything that entails. Surely, there are beliefs concerning morality and purpose, etc.

I realize this is way of topic of the OP, but it's my OP so...

gaara4158 · Jan 5, 2020

46AND2 said:
Belief is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed.

This is true, but at least some of what we are exposed to is voluntary. If belief is an involuntary conviction based on what we’re exposed to, and we have a degree of control over what we’re exposed to, doesn’t that mean that belief can be considered voluntary to some degree?

46AND2 · Jan 5, 2020

gaara4158 said:
This is true, but at least some of what we are exposed to is voluntary. If belief is an involuntary conviction based on what we’re exposed to, and we have a degree of control over what we’re exposed to, doesn’t that mean that belief can be considered voluntary to some degree?

One can, even to a large extent, guide themselves to certain sources of information. However, there is no guarantee that even this method will be successful in producing belief. This, in fact, happened to me when I was trying to strengthen my waning faith. Initially, I sought only prayer, the Bible, Christian apologetics, and other believers.

You can choose what information to seek out, but not what is going to convince you.

46AND2 · Jan 5, 2020

gaara4158 said:
This is true, but at least some of what we are exposed to is voluntary. If belief is an involuntary conviction based on what we’re exposed to, and we have a degree of control over what we’re exposed to, doesn’t that mean that belief can be considered voluntary to some degree?

The other thing to consider, too, is why would you direct your focus in a certain direction, unless you had already obtained information causing you to lean in that direction?

gaara4158 · Jan 6, 2020

46AND2 said:
The other thing to consider, too, is why would you direct your focus in a certain direction, unless you had already obtained information causing you to lean in that direction?

There are all kinds of irrational reasons to prefer certain beliefs over others. People in denial of their problems, conspiracy theorists, and cult members are prime examples of this. Forming a belief isn’t as simple as flipping a switch, but it’s also not an entirely passive process — unless you’re willing to argue a positive case for determinism.

46AND2 · Jan 7, 2020

gaara4158 said:
There are all kinds of irrational reasons to prefer certain beliefs over others.

I wouldn't say so. Yes, there are many irrational reasons people believe things, but I'd say it's probably pretty rare that people prefer one belief over another while also RECOGNIZING its irrationality. Other people may recognize how irrational it is, but typically the believer has rationalized it, albeit erroneously, to themselves.

People in denial of their problems, conspiracy theorists, and cult members are prime examples of this.

These are all examples of irrational beliefs in our eyes, not theirs.

Forming a belief isn’t as simple as flipping a switch, but it’s also not an entirely passive process — unless you’re willing to argue a positive case for determinism.

I don't think it has anything to do with determinism. Nobody is destined to believe one thing or another. It has to do with the ignorance of information, and in many cases, the ignorance of how to properly analyze information.

gaara4158 · Jan 8, 2020

46AND2 said:
I wouldn't say so. Yes, there are many irrational reasons people believe things, but I'd say it's probably pretty rare that people prefer one belief over another while also RECOGNIZING its irrationality. Other people may recognize how irrational it is, but typically the believer has rationalized it, albeit erroneously, to themselves.

These are all examples of irrational beliefs in our eyes, not theirs.

I don't think it has anything to do with determinism. Nobody is destined to believe one thing or another. It has to do with the ignorance of information, and in many cases, the ignorance of how to properly analyze information.

I’m just wondering where you believe choice comes into the equation in human psychology and — by extension — behavior, if you don’t believe in some form of determinism. If we don’t decide our motivations, as you say, then we aren’t in control of what irrational beliefs we pick up to serve those motivations. If we’re not in control of the process by which our beliefs are formed, then we can’t be in control of our beliefs. If we’re not in control of our beliefs, and beliefs inform actions, how can we say we’re in control of our actions?

I don’t see how boiling it down to ignorance gets us out of the determinism problem. Is ignorance not a matter of circumstance? Can one willfully ignore information or methodology that challenges more comforting beliefs? If so, it would seem that there is a degree of choice in the belief-forming process. If not, I don’t see how we can escape the conclusion that our beliefs are entirely determined.

GrowingSmaller · Jan 10, 2020

Could belief change happen is a certain genetic zone, changeable due to epigenetics.

Information influences memory, influences epigenetic switches, makes belief changes more likely?

So there may be a way, to tune ones influence on genes, in order to change opinions on faith matters.

Is belief a choice?

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