Is belief a choice?

[public hermit]

Given any proposition p, is it a matter of choice to believe that p is true (or false)?

It seems to me that if I strongly believe that p is true, then I will not be able to simply choose to believe that p is false. And, likewise, if I strongly believe that p is false, then I will not be able to simply choose to believe it is true.

If it helps, you can engage a simple thought experiment to see why I hold this position. Consider something that you strongly believe is true. Can you, in a moment's notice, choose to believe it is false? I doubt you will be able to, if you strongly believe it is true. You may be able to imagine it to be false, but that is not the same thing as believing it is false.

I use the term "strongly" for a purpose. If we assume that the strength of our beliefs comes in degrees, then we believe some things with a greater strength than others. In epistemology this strength, or lack thereof, is given a "credence value" between 0 and 1 (0 stands for a strong belief that p is false and 1 for a strong belief that p is true), so that .5 is a strength of belief that can go either way. If I am not sure of a belief, i.e. I can just as easily believe p is true or that it is false, then my belief has a credence value of .5. In those cases where the credence value is .5, then it seems I can choose to either believe it is true or not. But, I won't be able to believe it with any strength unless something changes to convince me of its falsehood or truth. This is one reason I have limited the OP to strongly held beliefs.

Also, although it doesn't seem that we can simply choose to believe whatever we want to, it does appear that we can put ourselves in a position to come to believe something. Let's say I have no strong belief about a particular religious claim. I can put myself in a position to come to believe it. I can participate in the religious observances, read the religious materials, pray, etc. This may lead me to a strong belief that I did not have before; however, it is no guarantee that it will. I may do all of that and come away as unsure as when I began. Nonetheless, it does seem more likely that I will come to a strong belief if I do engage in those activities, than if I don't.

So, what do you think? Can we just pull ourselves up by the boostraps and believe any old thing that we want to? Or, no?

PS: This discussion has religious implications. I know this is not a theological forum, but the philosophical discussion I hope will obtain can hardly avoid the theological. Whatever the case, I am hoping that both theists and atheists (and everyone in-between) will engage.

PPS: I really wish CF would open up the "Philosophy" board. I realize there are reasons for closing it, but there are philosophical issues of import that don't fit nicely in other forums, such as this one.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Given any proposition p, is it a matter of choice to believe that p is true (or false)?

We are given the choice of love or hate, sickness or health, blessing or curse, life or death, poverty or prosperity. There are many choices that we have to make in life. God will not decide for us. We have to decide for our-self. He does tell us the right choice. He does encourage us to choose life, health, blessing and prosperity. This is not always the easy choice, but always the right choice. My son is working on a degree in computer engineering. That is not always easy but it is choice for prosperity. Amazon for example hires people in at $15 an hour. They pay computer programmers $130,000 a year. My son talks about a girl that is in all of his classes. So I asked him if he married a girl that also had an engineering degree does that mean together they would make $260,000 a year? Some people have a marriage based on money or convince. Some have a marriage based on love. Some say they have love and money, they have it all. They do not want to have to choose between one or the other.

 

[ananda]

IMO "belief" on its own is just a trusting state of mind that derives its strength from the strength of various life experiences. This life experience can include reason, logic, history, observation, or even emotions and blind faith. All of these factors are weighed in the individual mind and a belief - or lack thereof - is formed.

 

[46AND2]

Given any proposition p, is it a matter of choice to believe that p is true (or false)?

It seems to me that if I strongly believe that p is true, then I will not be able to simply choose to believe that p is false. And, likewise, if I strongly believe that p is false, then I will not be able to simply choose to believe it is true.

If it helps, you can engage a simple thought experiment to see why I hold this position. Consider something that you strongly believe is true. Can you, in a moment's notice, choose to believe it is false? I doubt you will be able to, if you strongly believe it is true. You may be able to imagine it to be false, but that is not the same thing as believing it is false.

I use the term "strongly" for a purpose. If we assume that the strength of our beliefs comes in degrees, then we believe some things with a greater strength than others. In epistemology this strength, or lack thereof, is given a "credence value" between 0 and 1 (0 stands for a strong belief that p is false and 1 for a strong belief that p is true), so that .5 is a strength of belief that can go either way. If I am not sure of a belief, i.e. I can just as easily believe p is true or that it is false, then my belief has a credence value of .5. In those cases where the credence value is .5, then it seems I can choose to either believe it is true or not. But, I won't be able to believe it with any strength unless something changes to convince me of its falsehood or truth. This is one reason I have limited the OP to strongly held beliefs.

Also, although it doesn't seem that we can simply choose to believe whatever we want to, it does appear that we can put ourselves in a position to come to believe something. Let's say I have no strong belief about a particular religious claim. I can put myself in a position to come to believe it. I can participate in the religious observances, read the religious materials, pray, etc. This may lead me to a strong belief that I did not have before; however, it is no guarantee that it will. I may do all of that and come away as unsure as when I began. Nonetheless, it does seem more likely that I will come to a strong belief if I do engage in those activities, than if I don't.

So, what do you think? Can we just pull ourselves up by the boostraps and believe any old thing that we want to? Or, no?

PS: This discussion has religious implications. I know this is not a theological forum, but the philosophical discussion I hope will obtain can hardly avoid the theological. Whatever the case, I am hoping that both theists and atheists (and everyone in-between) will engage.

PPS: I really wish CF would open up the "Philosophy" board. I realize there are reasons for closing it, but there are philosophical issues of import that don't fit nicely in other forums, such as this one.

Belief is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed.

 

[public hermit]

Belief is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed.

That is pretty much the argument I am trying to make.

46and2 is a great song, by the way.

 

[public hermit]

We are given the choice of love or hate, sickness or health, blessing or curse, life or death, poverty or prosperity. There are many choices that we have to make in life. God will not decide for us. We have to decide for our-self.

Maybe I need to clarify. The OP is not about just any old choice. I agree that we have many choices to make in life. What I am asking concerns belief, specifically.

Do you think that belief is a choice? Take any belief that you hold to be true. Take a religious belief such as, "God exists." I feel confident that you believe that God exists. Did you choose to believe that God exists? Or better, assuming you do believe that God exists, can you-right now-choose to believe that God does not exist?

 

[public hermit]

IMO "belief" on its own is just a trusting state of mind that derives its strength from the strength of various life experiences. This life experience can include reason, logic, history, observation, or even emotions and blind faith. All of these factors are weighed in the individual mind and a belief - or lack thereof - is formed.

I agree with what you are saying. The factors you mention do weigh in on how one believes.

But, do you think a person can simply choose to believe something is false that they strongly believe is true? In a moments notice, can they simply change what they believe is true without the influence of the external factors you mentioned?

 

[46AND2]

That is pretty much the argument I am trying to make.

Yeah, that's why I didn't go into much detail...merely voicing agreement. It is an argument I have presented many times.

My only nit to pick is that you still don't choose to believe if your confidence level is .5. You just haven't reached a convincing level, yet, and cannot legitimately call it belief, imo. That, and it is highly unlikely that you are at equal confidence level for both sides of an issue, anyway.

46and2 is a great song, by the way.

 

[public hermit]

My only nit to pick is that you still don't choose to believe if your confidence level is .5. You just haven't reached a convincing level, yet, and cannot legitimately call it belief, imo. That, and it is highly unlikely that you are at equal confidence level for both sides of an issue, anyway.

I agree. I probably didn't put that quite right. But I tried to capture it when I said: "But, I won't be able to believe it with any strength unless something changes to convince me of its falsehood or truth." I should probably go back and make it more clear, but I'll leave it.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Did you choose to believe that God exists?

The Bible said to seek and you shall find. I had questions that needed answered, I had problems that needed solved. Finally someone said to try the Bible and I had nothing to lose. Learning to trust God took time and was difficult. I would try to trust Him for just little bit at first. Then when He did not disappoint me I would trust in Him for more and more.

 

[46AND2]

We are given the choice of love or hate, sickness or health, blessing or curse, life or death, poverty or prosperity. There are many choices that we have to make in life. God will not decide for us. We have to decide for our-self. He does tell us the right choice. He does encourage us to choose life, health, blessing and prosperity. This is not always the easy choice, but always the right choice. My son is working on a degree in computer engineering. That is not always easy but it is choice for prosperity. Amazon for example hires people in at $15 an hour. They pay computer programmers $130,000 a year. My son talks about a girl that is in all of his classes. So I asked him if he married a girl that also had an engineering degree does that mean together they would make $260,000 a year? Some people have a marriage based on money or convince. Some have a marriage based on love. Some say they have love and money, they have it all. They do not want to have to choose between one or the other.

Unless your kid graduates top of his class from MIT (a bit of hyperbole, but he'd have to be extremely brilliant), it's highly unlikely he will make anywhere near 130k until he has been on the job at least several years, and probably closer to a decade. Median entry level is about half that.

 

[public hermit]

The Bible said to seek and you shall find. I had questions that needed answered, I had problems that needed solved. Finally someone said to try the Bible and I had nothing to lose. Learning to trust God took time and was difficult. I would try to trust Him for just little bit at first. Then when He did not disappoint me I would trust in Him for more and more.

I see. Again the question is, "Is belief a choice?" I probably should not have offered belief in God's existence as an example. At its root, this is not necessarily a theological question. I just used that as an example to encourage reflection on the OP. But, I thank you for sharing the process that you went through to come to the point of trusting God. Faith, in contrast to mere belief, is not always easy. So, thank you.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Given any proposition p, is it a matter of choice to believe that p is true (or false)?

It seems to me that if I strongly believe that p is true, then I will not be able to simply choose to believe that p is false. And, likewise, if I strongly believe that p is false, then I will not be able to simply choose to believe it is true.

If it helps, you can engage a simple thought experiment to see why I hold this position. Consider something that you strongly believe is true. Can you, in a moment's notice, choose to believe it is false? I doubt you will be able to, if you strongly believe it is true. You may be able to imagine it to be false, but that is not the same thing as believing it is false.

I use the term "strongly" for a purpose. If we assume that the strength of our beliefs comes in degrees, then we believe some things with a greater strength than others. In epistemology this strength, or lack thereof, is given a "credence value" between 0 and 1 (0 stands for a strong belief that p is false and 1 for a strong belief that p is true), so that .5 is a strength of belief that can go either way. If I am not sure of a belief, i.e. I can just as easily believe p is true or that it is false, then my belief has a credence value of .5. In those cases where the credence value is .5, then it seems I can choose to either believe it is true or not. But, I won't be able to believe it with any strength unless something changes to convince me of its falsehood or truth. This is one reason I have limited the OP to strongly held beliefs.

Also, although it doesn't seem that we can simply choose to believe whatever we want to, it does appear that we can put ourselves in a position to come to believe something. Let's say I have no strong belief about a particular religious claim. I can put myself in a position to come to believe it. I can participate in the religious observances, read the religious materials, pray, etc. This may lead me to a strong belief that I did not have before; however, it is no guarantee that it will. I may do all of that and come away as unsure as when I began. Nonetheless, it does seem more likely that I will come to a strong belief if I do engage in those activities, than if I don't.

So, what do you think? Can we just pull ourselves up by the boostraps and believe any old thing that we want to? Or, no?

PS: This discussion has religious implications. I know this is not a theological forum, but the philosophical discussion I hope will obtain can hardly avoid the theological. Whatever the case, I am hoping that both theists and atheists (and everyone in-between) will engage.

PPS: I really wish CF would open up the "Philosophy" board. I realize there are reasons for closing it, but there are philosophical issues of import that don't fit nicely in other forums, such as this one.

Someone mentioned on another thread that we are all born atheist. I never really thought of it that way before. But it’s true. Our religious beliefs are either taught to us or self-taught. So, I’d say for some it’s a choice; for some it’s a matter of upbringing.

 

[public hermit]

Someone mentioned on another thread that we are all born atheist. I never really thought of it that way before.

I had not thought of it that way either. That is a fascinating thought. Thank you for sharing it.

Question: So, when you think of something you strongly believe is true, can you decide-right now-that it is actually false?

 

[46AND2]

Someone mentioned on another thread that we are all born atheist. I never really thought of it that way before. But it’s true. Our religious beliefs are either taught to us or self-taught. So, I’d say for some it’s a choice; for some it’s a matter of upbringing.

Choosing to pursue information about a particular ideology is not the same thing as choosing to believe it.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Again the question is, "Is belief a choice?"

Yes belief is a choice. We see this with brain surgery. If a surgeon wants to go in and remove a tumor they have to know exactly how this is going to effect the brain. "Damage to the brain's frontal lobe is known to impair one's ability to think and make choices. And now scientists say they've pinpointed the different parts of this brain region that preside over reasoning, self-control and decision-making." (Live Science) Animals have a brain that is not as evolved as the human brain. The are not able to make choices the way we do. Last summer we were working on getting the stay cats fixed to keep them from getting over populated. It was interesting to see the effect that had on the male and the female cats.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Belief is an involuntary conviction based on information and stimuli to which you have been exposed.

In the Bible we always go back to the beginning. In this case we look at Eve the tree of Knowledge and the Serpent. We are told that Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived. He made a choice. God told them NOT to eat from that tree. To say it was God's will for them to disobey God does not make any rational sense at all. This would contradict everything we read in the Bible.

 

[Emmylouwho]

I had not thought of it that way either. That is a fascinating thought. Thank you for sharing it.

Question: So, when you think of something you strongly believe is true, can you decide-right now-that it is actually false?

No. For me to disbelieve something that I strongly believe in, I’d have to give it some thought, weigh the evidence.

 

[royal priest]

There are degrees of faith. From mere the acknowledgement of a thing to the adoption and use of it. Theology has a use that impacts every facet of our being. A believer grows in the use of his faith through a deliberate repudiation of his former beliefs and life and by the exercise of pursuing his new faith. Then there are the confirmation and affirmation of those beliefs though God's dealings with him in providence.
The more committed we are to fight the doubts which attack us and to discern the Word and works of God, the better equipped we shall be in the pursuit of entrusting our lives to Him.

 

[46AND2]

In the Bible we always go back to the beginning. In this case we look at Eve the tree of Knowledge and the Serpent. We are told that Eve was deceived but Adam was not deceived. He made a choice. God told them NOT to eat from that tree. To say it was God's will for them to disobey God does not make any rational sense at all. This would contradict everything we read in the Bible.

The choice you have described that Adam made is not a choice of belief. It's a choice of action.