Is Being a NT Prophet What Most Charismatics Think It Is?

[BobRyan]

The problem that we have today is that everything that we conclude about the function of NT Prophet is based on guesswork, because Paul does not supply us with a clear definition or an operating manual of how the NT Prophet should operate.

There are many texts in the NT that refer to prophets in the OT and in the NT but no text that I know of in the NT says there is one iota of difference between the NT gift of prophecy and the OT gift of prophecy.

In fact in the NT you have prophets in the gospel accounts - before the cross - and you have prophets after the cross in the book of Acts. And no text saying that the prior scriptures regarding prophets/prophecy no longer apply to them, or serve as an example of what a prophet is.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There are many texts in the NT that refer to prophets in the OT and in the NT but no text that I know of in the NT says there is one iota of difference between the NT gift of prophecy and the OT gift of prophecy.

In fact in the NT you have prophets in the gospel accounts - before the cross - and you have prophets after the cross in the book of Acts. And no text saying that the prior scriptures regarding prophets/prophecy no longer apply to them, or serve as an example of what a prophet is.

Trouble is that no one knows how to be a true Prophet, and so they have to make guesses and hope they are right. The NAR prophets getting their prophecies about Trump's second term as President wrong has them falling somewhat short of confidently showing that they know how to be true Prophets.

 

[BobRyan]

Trouble is that no one knows how to be a true Prophet, and so they have to make guesses and hope they are right.

I don't understand what they are thinking.

Here is what the Bible says about someone who is a true prophet -

Numbers 12:
6 He said,
“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.I will speak with him in a dream.


This is so incredibly distinct that 1 Cor 14 says - if a prophet is standing and relating a revelation from God - and yet God suddenly contacts another prophet who is seated - then the first who is standing and speaking, must sit down because God is taking over.

1 Cor 14:
29 Have two or three prophets speak, and have the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, then the first one is to keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't understand what they are thinking.

Here is what the Bible says about someone who is a true prophet -

Numbers 12:
6 He said,
“Now hear My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, will make Myself known to him in a vision.I will speak with him in a dream.


This is so incredibly distinct that 1 Cor 14 says - if a prophet is standing and relating a revelation from God - and yet God suddenly contacts another prophet who is seated - then the first who is standing and speaking, must sit down because God is taking over.

1 Cor 14:
29 Have two or three prophets speak, and have the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, then the first one is to keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;

But the question still remains: How is one able to know for sure that the "revelation" actually comes from the Holy Spirit and not dreamed up out of the imagination? Often, so called prophetic words come from a desire to manipulate others with their own opinions, tacking the Lord's name on their own dreamed up opinions.

 

[BobRyan]

But the question still remains: How is one able to know for sure that the "revelation" actually comes from the Holy Spirit and not dreamed up out of the imagination? Often, so called prophetic words come from a desire to manipulate others with their own opinions, tacking the Lord's name on their own dreamed up opinions.

God's intervention is as different from a common dream as would be an angel of bright light literally walking physically into your room and handing you greeting card in the middle of the day - vs you day dreaming as you look out the window. There is a huge difference between the two.

Some people might say - "as different from a common dream as having your boss at work suddenly walk into the front door of your house and handing you a ticket to California for a business meeting, vs day dreaming as you look out the window" -- is more clear in their minds as a contrast between a real event and an imagined one.

Think about that for a minute. IF it were true that the prophetic revelation was merely "having an inspiring thought" or "urge to speak" , then the 1 Cor 14 instruction of Paul given as a way of having orderly worship - would result in all out chaos as people who are seated all stand and demand that the one speaking sit down because "something just occured to them". Paul's instruction is proof that there is a massive difference between the two things. So much so that in the OT if a person claimed it falsely - they were to be stoned.

But to your point -- what many today call "a revelation from God" is in fact merely "a sudden urge to say something" and is no more significant for them if the statement turns out to be wrong... as "having a bad guess at something"

 

[Hawkins]

Prophesying has two-fold meanings, while foretelling is no longer a sole gift of the true prophets.

Acts 2:17-18 (NIV):
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Anyone may be given the gift of foretelling.

While prophesying is not necessarily fore-telling. It is more on Paul's way of ministering.

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NRSV):
Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.

However either way, it's not a sole gift of the prophets. A prophet is an eyewitness of God who bear witnesses for God. Basically he can communicate with God in a prophet's unique way. Paul, though ranked as an apostle, falls to this category.

Some characteristics of a standard NT prophet:

Jesus/God shows up in a supernatural event, and identified Himself to the chosen prophet (though Paul ranked as an apostle),

Acts 9:4-5 (NIV):
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.


Jesus/God confirms His own message by enabling the prophet to perform miracles. He authenticates both the prophet and the message he carries by enabling him to perform miracles and possibly fore-telling (a form of prophesying),

Acts 14:3 (NIV):
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 2:17-18 (NIV):
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Anyone may be given the gift of foretelling.

True - but that has always been true in both OT and NT.

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NRSV):
Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.

True - but that has always been true of Prophets/prophecy.

However either way, it's not a sole gift of the prophets. A prophet is an eyewitness of God who bear witnesses for God. Basically he can communicate with God in a prophet's unique way. Paul, though ranked as an apostle, falls to this category.

Because Apostles are in a category above prophet as 1 Cor 12 states - and they include the gift of prophecy.

Jesus/God confirms His own message by enabling the prophet to perform miracles. He authenticates both the prophet and the message he carries by enabling him to perform miracles

Prophets in both OT and NT performed miracles.

There is no such thing as a separate category of prophet called "New Testament prophet" -- the Bible uses the same term for both OT and NT prophets - in the NT.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Prophesying has two-fold meanings, while foretelling is no longer a sole gift of the true prophets.

Acts 2:17-18 (NIV):
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

Anyone may be given the gift of foretelling.

While prophesying is not necessarily fore-telling. It is more on Paul's way of ministering.

1 Corinthians 14:4 (NRSV):
Those who speak in a tongue build up themselves, but those who prophesy build up the church.

However either way, it's not a sole gift of the prophets. A prophet is an eyewitness of God who bear witnesses for God. Basically he can communicate with God in a prophet's unique way. Paul, though ranked as an apostle, falls to this category.

Some characteristics of a standard NT prophet:

Jesus/God shows up in a supernatural event, and identified Himself to the chosen prophet (though Paul ranked as an apostle),

Acts 9:4-5 (NIV):
He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.


Jesus/God confirms His own message by enabling the prophet to perform miracles. He authenticates both the prophet and the message he carries by enabling him to perform miracles and possibly fore-telling (a form of prophesying),

Acts 14:3 (NIV):
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.

Problem is that there is a lot of talk about this, but no actual action out where it matters.

 

[Hawkins]

Prophets in both OT and NT performed miracles.

NT is more on the testimonies from the apostles who are God's chosen witnesses. Prophets on the hand are barely mentioned. We lost track about who they are, as long as their testimonies are not formally included in the Scripture.

 

[Hawkins]

Problem is that there is a lot of talk about this, but no actual action out where it matters.

The problem is that their testimonies as God's chosen witness will not be included in the Bible as the Bible as a testimony was completed in 1st century. Even when they exist they won't be made publicly known, and their testimonies won't be formally recorded down.

Even in the case of the reformation where authentication has been shifted from the Catholics to the Protestants, God didn't annonounce any prophets involved. Did God send any behind this movement? I think so, they are just not made publicly known in my opinion.

Prophets will be made publicly known again only when the end draws near. They are the 'two witnesses' mentioned in the book of Revelation. They come not for their testimonies to be written down, but for giving the last warning to humankind.

 

[Doran]

Trouble is that no one knows how to be a true Prophet, and so they have to make guesses and hope they are right. The NAR prophets getting their prophecies about Trump's second term as President wrong has them falling somewhat short of confidently showing that they know how to be true Prophets.

I don't think it's a question of New Covenant Christians knowing how to be a prophet. If one is truly a prophet, that calling and gift are sovereignly bestowed by God. Therefore, if someone claims to be a prophet, then we can test that by applying the tests in Deut 13:1-5; 18:21-22. The first test applies to the forthtelling aspect of prophecy, while the latter applies to the foretelling side.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I don't think it's a question of New Covenant Christians knowing how to be a prophet. If one is truly a prophet, that calling and gift are sovereignly bestowed by God. Therefore, if someone claims to be a prophet, then we can test that by applying the tests in Deut 13:1-5; 18:21-22. The first test applies to the forthtelling aspect of prophecy, while the latter applies to the foretelling side.

I'm not in favour of setting myself up as a judge of whether someone is a true prophet or not. There is only one Judge, and He is the one who was crucified for me, and I am not willing to play God by being a judge of others. If I hear a prophecy that doesn't ring true to me, I can just safely ignore it. I don't have to get up on my hind legs and try to judge or correct the prophet. I leave that up to the Holy Spirit and then get on with working on the logs in my own eyes without trying to get the speck out of the eyes of others.

 

[Doran]

I'm not in favour of setting myself up as a judge of whether someone is a true prophet or not. There is only one Judge, and He is the one who was crucified for me, and I am not willing to play God by being a judge of others. If I hear a prophecy that doesn't ring true to me, I can just safely ignore it. I don't have to get up on my hind legs and try to judge or correct the prophet. I leave that up to the Holy Spirit and then get on with working on the logs in my own eyes without trying to get the speck out of the eyes of others.

Then why do you think God gave Moses the two prophecy tests if not for the purpose of giving Israel an objective way (as opposed to a subjective "ring true" way) of testing the content of prophecies and thereby determining the validity of any prophet who claims to speak in God's name? Are God's tests not good enough?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Then why do you think God gave Moses the two prophecy tests if not for the purpose of giving Israel an objective way (as opposed to a subjective "ring true" way) of testing the content of prophecies and thereby determining the validity of any prophet who claims to speak in God's name? Are God's tests not good enough?

I'm not stopping you from being a judge of prophecy. The best of British luck on that!

 

[Doran]

I'm not stopping you from being a judge of prophecy. The best of British luck on that!

Thanks for the kind sentiments but as a Christian I don't believe in "luck" -- the British kind or any other nationality.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for the kind sentiments but as a Christian I don't believe in "luck" -- the British kind or any other nationality.

Not even the luck of the Irish? What on earth is the world coming to??

 

[Doran]

Not even the luck of the Irish? What on earth is the world coming to??

 

[Doran]

What can a lost world come to since it largely rejects its Savior?

"Luck", by the way is NOTHING, i.e. Not a Thing. It has no power to cause anything. Luck is simply a construct of carnal imaginations.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What can a lost world come to since it largely rejects its Savior?

"Luck", by the way is NOTHING, i.e. Not a Thing. It has no power to cause anything. Luck is simply a construct of carnal imaginations.

My response is something called humour, just in case you don't know what that is.

 

[Doran]

My response is something called humour, just in case you don't know what that is.

Any professing Christian who believes in luck should lighten up on humor and bear down heavily on biblical theology.