Is Being a NT Prophet What Most Charismatics Think It Is?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have already discussed this in the Sign Gifts forum, but I have decided to discuss it here so that a wider range of members can have the opportunity to give their opinions.

This is not a criticism of Charismatics, but because prophets and prophecy appear mainly within Charismatic environments I think that the belief that NT Prophets are itinerate ministries where people with the gift of prophecy go around giving general and personal prophetic words to people, and often these words include predictions of the future.

Now I am assuming that the gift of prophecy is still active in the church, and people promulgating their cessationist view would not be helpful to the discussion. However, by putting this discussion in an open Theology forum I guess I am not going to avoid some using this thread as a personal soapbox for their cessationist views.

But, is having the gift of prophecy as described in 1 Corinthians 14, make someone a NT Prophet? Up until now, I have accepted that view, but after prayerful consideration, I am having my doubts.

What came to me was that when Jesus spoke to the Seven Churches in Revelation, He was performing the function of a Prophet. What He was doing was to bring encouragement and correction to those churches. In some ways, Paul was functioning as a Prophet in his first letter to the Corinthian church, and also to the Thessalonians, with a prediction of the future as he described the events around the second coming of Christ. When I thought of Jesus calling those churches that had either lost their first love or thought they had everything they needed when in fact they were naked and blind to repent, I realised that an integral function of a Prophet was to ensure that the Church was going in the right direction and if they were straying away from being totally faithful to Christ, they should repent. It is interesting to me that John the Baptizer also called the Jewish nation to repent, and I asked myself, "What then is the difference between a Prophet calling the Jewish nation to repent, and a NT Prophet calling those parts of the Church straying into hypocrisy, apostacy, and heresy to repent. The message was and is the same, it is just the listeners who are different.

I then started to think about Martin Luther. He functioned as a Prophet when he challenged the established church to cease making money through indulgences and to accept that believers are justified by faith. I thought of the late David Wilkerson who preached against the worldliness and hypocrisy of the church; and Leonard Ravenhill who wrote, "Why Revival Tarries". After hearing Paul Washer preach, It appears to me that he is also functioning as a NT Prophet calling on the staying church to return to the Lord.

When I compared these with the OT Prophets, that was their message as well - for the people to forsake their idols and return to the Lord, otherwise accept the consequences. Their message was not popular and many of them were killed. It was described of Paul that he was "everywhere spoken against." David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill encountered opposition and persecution. Luther often was in fear of his life. This made the NT Prophet ministry the most dangerous of the five fold ministries.

So, I wonder if the Charismatics have got it wrong in their definition of the NT Prophet and have left out the most important functions that make up a NT Prophet. This means that perhaps the ministry of NT Prophet has not ceased at all, but has continued to this present day, but not as the Charismatics know it.

 

[sandman]

You are probably right in your assumption ...
The manifestation of prophecy is defined in 1 Cor 14 ...it is a message of edification, exhortation, and or comfort, in a fellowship style meeting just as interpretation of tongues..... it is inspirit action.
The gift ministry of a prophet (Eph 4) could be for future or current information,..... prophecy is forthtelling or foretelling ...either way it's revelation from God for a specific person or persons and will never contradict the Word of God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I have already discussed this in the Sign Gifts forum, but I have decided to discuss it here so that a wider range of members can have the opportunity to give their opinions.

This is not a criticism of Charismatics, but because prophets and prophecy appear mainly within Charismatic environments I think that the belief that NT Prophets are itinerate ministries where people with the gift of prophecy go around giving general and personal prophetic words to people, and often these words include predictions of the future.

Now I am assuming that the gift of prophecy is still active in the church, and people promulgating their cessationist view would not be helpful to the discussion. However, by putting this discussion in an open Theology forum I guess I am not going to avoid some using this thread as a personal soapbox for their cessationist views.

But, is having the gift of prophecy as described in 1 Corinthians 14, make someone a NT Prophet? Up until now, I have accepted that view, but after prayerful consideration, I am having my doubts.

What came to me was that when Jesus spoke to the Seven Churches in Revelation, He was performing the function of a Prophet. What He was doing was to bring encouragement and correction to those churches. In some ways, Paul was functioning as a Prophet in his first letter to the Corinthian church, and also to the Thessalonians, with a prediction of the future as he described the events around the second coming of Christ. When I thought of Jesus calling those churches that had either lost their first love or thought they had everything they needed when in fact they were naked and blind to repent, I realised that an integral function of a Prophet was to ensure that the Church was going in the right direction and if they were straying away from being totally faithful to Christ, they should repent. It is interesting to me that John the Baptizer also called the Jewish nation to repent, and I asked myself, "What then is the difference between a Prophet calling the Jewish nation to repent, and a NT Prophet calling those parts of the Church straying into hypocrisy, apostacy, and heresy to repent. The message was and is the same, it is just the listeners who are different.

I then started to think about Martin Luther. He functioned as a Prophet when he challenged the established church to cease making money through indulgences and to accept that believers are justified by faith. I thought of the late David Wilkerson who preached against the worldliness and hypocrisy of the church; and Leonard Ravenhill who wrote, "Why Revival Tarries". After hearing Paul Washer preach, It appears to me that he is also functioning as a NT Prophet calling on the staying church to return to the Lord.

When I compared these with the OT Prophets, that was their message as well - for the people to forsake their idols and return to the Lord, otherwise accept the consequences. Their message was not popular and many of them were killed. It was described of Paul that he was "everywhere spoken against." David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill encountered opposition and persecution. Luther often was in fear of his life. This made the NT Prophet ministry the most dangerous of the five fold ministries.

So, I wonder if the Charismatics have got it wrong in their definition of the NT Prophet and have left out the most important functions that make up a NT Prophet. This means that perhaps the ministry of NT Prophet has not ceased at all, but has continued to this present day, but not as the Charismatics know it.

Thanks for sharing! I too looked into " prophesying " and found out that it has different meanings, all divinely inspired, but it can be a prediction or an instruction in religious matters. The key to discerning a prophesy is its complete fulfillment.

prophesy​

verb​

proph·e·sy ˈprä-fə-ˌsī

prophesied; prophesying
transitive verb
1
: to utter by or as if by divine inspiration
2
: to predict with assurance or on the basis of mystic knowledge
3
: PREFIGURE
intransitive verb
1
: to speak as if divinely inspired
2
: to give instruction in religious matters : PREACH
3
: to make a prediction
prophesier
ˈprä-fə-ˌsī(-ə)r
noun

 

[swordsman1]

I have already discussed this in the Sign Gifts forum, but I have decided to discuss it here so that a wider range of members can have the opportunity to give their opinions.

This is not a criticism of Charismatics, but because prophets and prophecy appear mainly within Charismatic environments I think that the belief that NT Prophets are itinerate ministries where people with the gift of prophecy go around giving general and personal prophetic words to people, and often these words include predictions of the future.

Now I am assuming that the gift of prophecy is still active in the church, and people promulgating their cessationist view would not be helpful to the discussion. However, by putting this discussion in an open Theology forum I guess I am not going to avoid some using this thread as a personal soapbox for their cessationist views.

But, is having the gift of prophecy as described in 1 Corinthians 14, make someone a NT Prophet? Up until now, I have accepted that view, but after prayerful consideration, I am having my doubts.

What came to me was that when Jesus spoke to the Seven Churches in Revelation, He was performing the function of a Prophet. What He was doing was to bring encouragement and correction to those churches. In some ways, Paul was functioning as a Prophet in his first letter to the Corinthian church, and also to the Thessalonians, with a prediction of the future as he described the events around the second coming of Christ. When I thought of Jesus calling those churches that had either lost their first love or thought they had everything they needed when in fact they were naked and blind to repent, I realised that an integral function of a Prophet was to ensure that the Church was going in the right direction and if they were straying away from being totally faithful to Christ, they should repent. It is interesting to me that John the Baptizer also called the Jewish nation to repent, and I asked myself, "What then is the difference between a Prophet calling the Jewish nation to repent, and a NT Prophet calling those parts of the Church straying into hypocrisy, apostacy, and heresy to repent. The message was and is the same, it is just the listeners who are different.

I then started to think about Martin Luther. He functioned as a Prophet when he challenged the established church to cease making money through indulgences and to accept that believers are justified by faith. I thought of the late David Wilkerson who preached against the worldliness and hypocrisy of the church; and Leonard Ravenhill who wrote, "Why Revival Tarries". After hearing Paul Washer preach, It appears to me that he is also functioning as a NT Prophet calling on the staying church to return to the Lord.

When I compared these with the OT Prophets, that was their message as well - for the people to forsake their idols and return to the Lord, otherwise accept the consequences. Their message was not popular and many of them were killed. It was described of Paul that he was "everywhere spoken against." David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill encountered opposition and persecution. Luther often was in fear of his life. This made the NT Prophet ministry the most dangerous of the five fold ministries.

So, I wonder if the Charismatics have got it wrong in their definition of the NT Prophet and have left out the most important functions that make up a NT Prophet. This means that perhaps the ministry of NT Prophet has not ceased at all, but has continued to this present day, but not as the Charismatics know it.

I would say you were correct in your initial evaluation. Those that have the gift of prophecy in 1 Cor 14 are indeed prophets. Paul uses that very word "prophets" to describe them (1 Cor 14:29, 32, 37). So according to Paul there is no distinction between the gift of prophecy and NT prophets. Or for that matter Old testament prophets - the same Greek word is used throughout the NT to describe OT prophets.

They all received their prophecies in the same way - by God verbally speaking to them (Num 12:6, Num 24:16, Isa 6:8, Ezek 1:28, Ezek 2:1-3, etc. etc ). The process is clearly described in 1 Sam 3 when the boy Samuel started prophesying and literally heard God verbally speaking to him. Throughout scripture prophecies are prefixed with something like "Thus says the Lord....", followed by the precise words God spoke. If the Lord didn't really say those words then scripture is lying. And that same process is also true of NT prophecy (Acts 21:11, Acts 22:14, Rev 1:10-11). I see nowhere in scripture where prophecy is described as receiving a strong impression or God laying something on your heart, as today's prophecies are claimed to be received.

Nor would I describe powerful "inspired preaching" as prophecy, as is sometimes claimed. Paul made a distinction between the gift of teaching and the gift of prophecy, and I can't see anywhere where teaching/preaching is described as prophecy.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Nor would I describe powerful "inspired preaching" as prophecy, as is sometimes claimed. Paul made a distinction between the gift of teaching and the gift of prophecy, and I can't see anywhere where teaching/preaching is described as prophecy.

If everyone is praying for the pastor during the week, and and those same people hear thoughts attributed to God during the sermon, is it any wonder?

 

[BobRyan]

I have already discussed this in the Sign Gifts forum, but I have decided to discuss it here so that a wider range of members can have the opportunity to give their opinions.

This is not a criticism of Charismatics, but because prophets and prophecy appear mainly within Charismatic environments I think that the belief that NT Prophets are itinerate ministries where people with the gift of prophecy go around giving general and personal prophetic words to people, and often these words include predictions of the future.

Now I am assuming that the gift of prophecy is still active in the church, and people promulgating their cessationist view would not be helpful to the discussion.

ok fine - the cessasionist view is not correct according to 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14 and Eph 4.

But, is having the gift of prophecy as described in 1 Corinthians 14, make someone a NT Prophet? Up until now, I have accepted that view, but after prayerful consideration, I am having my doubts.

Prophet is an office of ministry given by God to one who manifests that 1 Cor 12 gift of prophecy. Some who prophesy are in the office of a prophet but all who prophesy are demonstrating the work of the Holy Spirit in giving someone a prophecy.

Numbers 12:

6 He said,​

“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.
I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 “Not so, with My servant Moses,
He is faithful in all My household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth,
Even openly, and not in dark sayings,
And he beholds the form of the Lord.​

​

​

What came to me was that when Jesus spoke to the Seven Churches in Revelation, He was performing the function of a Prophet.

I don't think you can say that - Jesus in the book of Revelation is God Almighty - He is not inspired by the Spirit -- rather He Himself is God.

In Revelation JOHN is "the prophet" - John is the one serving in that role in the writing of the book of Revelation

In some ways, Paul was functioning as a Prophet in his first letter to the Corinthian church, and also to the Thessalonians, with a prediction of the future as he described the events around the second coming of Christ.

Paul was most certainly a prophet - as per Numbers 12 - Paul had visions (see 2 Cor 12:1-5) and inspired dreams.

I asked myself, "What then is the difference between a Prophet calling the Jewish nation to repent, and a NT Prophet calling those parts of the Church straying into hypocrisy, apostacy, and heresy to repent.

No different. John serves as a NT prophet but it is the same mechanism as when OT prophets did that.

The message was and is the same, it is just the listeners who are different.

I then started to think about Martin Luther. He functioned as a Prophet when he challenged the established church to cease making money through indulgences and to accept that believers are justified by faith.

No he did not. Many people have a word of correction for the church but that alone does not make them a prophet in the Numbers 12 and 1 Cor 12 sense. In 1 Cor 14 God has immediate and total control of a prophet when receiving a prophecy - such that if one is standing relating a message inspired by God - and one seated suddenly gets a word -- the first one must be seated according to the chapter - that means God just interrupted the service personally.

So, I wonder if the Charismatics have got it wrong in their definition of...

I think they tend to get a number of details wrong when you compare it with the Bible.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I have already discussed this in the Sign Gifts forum, but I have decided to discuss it here so that a wider range of members can have the opportunity to give their opinions.

This is not a criticism of Charismatics, but because prophets and prophecy appear mainly within Charismatic environments I think that the belief that NT Prophets are itinerate ministries where people with the gift of prophecy go around giving general and personal prophetic words to people, and often these words include predictions of the future.

Now I am assuming that the gift of prophecy is still active in the church, and people promulgating their cessationist view would not be helpful to the discussion. However, by putting this discussion in an open Theology forum I guess I am not going to avoid some using this thread as a personal soapbox for their cessationist views.

But, is having the gift of prophecy as described in 1 Corinthians 14, make someone a NT Prophet? Up until now, I have accepted that view, but after prayerful consideration, I am having my doubts.

What came to me was that when Jesus spoke to the Seven Churches in Revelation, He was performing the function of a Prophet. What He was doing was to bring encouragement and correction to those churches. In some ways, Paul was functioning as a Prophet in his first letter to the Corinthian church, and also to the Thessalonians, with a prediction of the future as he described the events around the second coming of Christ. When I thought of Jesus calling those churches that had either lost their first love or thought they had everything they needed when in fact they were naked and blind to repent, I realised that an integral function of a Prophet was to ensure that the Church was going in the right direction and if they were straying away from being totally faithful to Christ, they should repent. It is interesting to me that John the Baptizer also called the Jewish nation to repent, and I asked myself, "What then is the difference between a Prophet calling the Jewish nation to repent, and a NT Prophet calling those parts of the Church straying into hypocrisy, apostacy, and heresy to repent. The message was and is the same, it is just the listeners who are different.

I then started to think about Martin Luther. He functioned as a Prophet when he challenged the established church to cease making money through indulgences and to accept that believers are justified by faith. I thought of the late David Wilkerson who preached against the worldliness and hypocrisy of the church; and Leonard Ravenhill who wrote, "Why Revival Tarries". After hearing Paul Washer preach, It appears to me that he is also functioning as a NT Prophet calling on the staying church to return to the Lord.

When I compared these with the OT Prophets, that was their message as well - for the people to forsake their idols and return to the Lord, otherwise accept the consequences. Their message was not popular and many of them were killed. It was described of Paul that he was "everywhere spoken against." David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill encountered opposition and persecution. Luther often was in fear of his life. This made the NT Prophet ministry the most dangerous of the five fold ministries.

So, I wonder if the Charismatics have got it wrong in their definition of the NT Prophet and have left out the most important functions that make up a NT Prophet. This means that perhaps the ministry of NT Prophet has not ceased at all, but has continued to this present day, but not as the Charismatics know it.

I believe that modern charismatics have it wrong. I'll explain why.

It helps me to look at things in a microcosm. It's easier to see what is overarching when we see an example of the whole.

We all are fairly clear on what constituted a prophet in Old Testament times, we do however, get more confused when we try and translate that title into New Covenant times.

There are certain things that precedes a prophets mission and those are:

1. A initial Theophany
2. A Divine Commission
3. The prophet's recognition of his own insufficiency
4. A Divine work of Grace that overcomes the prophet's insufficiency

(Then the prophet begins his commission).

While the Apostle Paul was called many names that we know of (Apostle, teacher etc) not one of them was Prophet in the Scripture. However, when you compare Paul to literally any old testament prophet you get the same thing - Paul held the position of prophet, just a prophet within a New Covenant context.

I believe our expository preachers ARE modern Prophets of God.

Who can look at people like Voddie Baucham, raised up by God for just this moment in time, and see anything but a prophet of God? I certainly can't see anything but that.. (Though I'm sure he'd cringe to hear anyone compare him so)

I think Charismatics have diminished what a prophet truly is in the New Covenant era by minimalizing it into something it can, perhaps, occasionally be, while ignoring the larger picture of what a true prophet is, in total.

So I agree with you, people like Martin Luther etc were, quite likely, actual prophets of God, raised up by God for the purposes they fulfilled in their lives.

 

[Blade]

"Charismatics" I understand what your trying to say but .. I never look at it as what some "group" believes. You like me and all here are followers of Christ. He does not see groups as we do. So on earth as it is in heaven is how I believe and see. Like were all gathered and up front is only Christ. We look out and see so many people and tents yet it is one body one vine. All I will say is there are gifts that must be in ones life to be called a prophet. People like David Wilkerson was not a prophet. We are told to prophesy all should be doing this this that does not make one a prophet.

Today we see the word of God unfold before us as in the last days many false prophets will come. We tend to read that as "not telling the truth, not coming true". There is a truth there but when God said false prophets who were so many times right spot on. What they "said" God never told them aka false prophet. So for me according to Gods word there are gifts that must be in a prophets life. It is not like it was in the OT where one must listen. NT where the prophet never told Paul what to do only what was going to happen to the one that wore that belt. Its lol not seeing the future all the time...anyway.

 

[Guojing]

I would say you were correct in your initial evaluation. Those that have the gift of prophecy in 1 Cor 14 are indeed prophets. Paul uses that very word "prophets" to describe them (1 Cor 14:29, 32, 37). So according to Paul there is no distinction between the gift of prophecy and NT prophets. Or for that matter Old testament prophets - the same Greek word is used throughout the NT to describe OT prophets.

They all received their prophecies in the same way - by God verbally speaking to them (Num 12:6, Num 24:16, Isa 6:8, Ezek 1:28, Ezek 2:1-3, etc. etc ). The process is clearly described in 1 Sam 3 when the boy Samuel started prophesying and literally heard God verbally speaking to him. Throughout scripture prophecies are prefixed with something like "Thus says the Lord....", followed by the precise words God spoke. If the Lord didn't really say those words then scripture is lying. And that same process is also true of NT prophecy (Acts 21:11, Acts 22:14, Rev 1:10-11). I see nowhere in scripture where prophecy is described as receiving a strong impression or God laying something on your heart, as today's prophecies are claimed to be received.

Nor would I describe powerful "inspired preaching" as prophecy, as is sometimes claimed. Paul made a distinction between the gift of teaching and the gift of prophecy, and I can't see anywhere where teaching/preaching is described as prophecy.

As the authors of Counterfeit Kingdom has summarized, the prophets we see today give out "fortune cookie prophecies".

Every year, they always give positive predictions that are so broad and vague that make it impossible to verify whether they are true or false.

And when they do try to give specific predictions, such as when Covid will end, and that Trump will become the new President, they get it wrong.

 

[NBB]

Every year, they always give positive predictions that are so broad and vague that make it impossible to verify whether they are true or false.

Speaking of pentecostals or charismatic prophets, i have seen this and experienced this some prophet speaking to me, he uncovered things of my past he couldn''t possibly know in any way, and things i thought only in my heart that nobody knew and about my spiritual state, but not only to 'impress' with that, it was to tell me something about my relationship with God.

 

[swordsman1]

I have also heard a charismatic prophet declare things he couldn't have known. It was something like: "I feel there someone in the congregation who has recently had knee surgery. I am also sensing they have just celebrated their silver wedding anniversary." Touching the side of his head he then said "Their names is.....wait, it's coming to me.....John. Is there such a person called John in the congregation tonight?". When John put his hand up the audience were wowed, thinking the prophet had been given psychic powers. It turns out the info was obtained from the persons Facebook page and he was reading it off a tablet. It was caught on camera.

I have also attended a service where the speaker said "I sense there is someone here today who has been suffering from stomach problems. Please raise your hand if that person is you". Nobody put their hand up that time, but he was unlucky. On any given Sunday in a sizeable congregation there is bound to be someone who has been having stomach problems. I have also heard a preacher say something like "I sense that someone here tonight who is feeling guilty after committing a sin. The sin was....wait, it's coming to me....it was an unkind word said to another person". Or something like "I feel there is someone who is harbouring ungodly thoughts and they are not right with God". These are not psychic abilities. They are all common conditions that would have been a correct 'prophecy' for any number of people. Even a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day.

I see nowhere in scripture where prophecy is described as God beaming secret information into the mind of a prophet. Not even in 1 Cor 14:24 which is often cited as justification for such 'prophecies'. Prophecy is only ever described as God verbally speaking to the prophet. In the absence of any other description it must be presumed that prophecy is always given by that mechanism. Telepathy, extra-sensory perception and clairvoyancy are the trademarks of New Age mysticism and the occult, not biblical Christianity, even if by chance they happen to be correct.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

A prophet will be called in ministry as a prophet.
A prophet will possess several of the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corin 12.
Prophecy - which by itself is just "speaking forth." There is no revelation in this gift. It is just anointed speech, speaking in the oracles of God.
Word of Knowledge - knowledge from the mind of God that is know to men, or could be discovered by natural means.
Word of Wisdom - knowledge from the mind of God that is not known to men, and cannot be discovered by natural means.
Most importantly, the NT prophet will work to fulfill the NT message (not the OT message).
The OT message was a word of condemnation. Unfortunately many today are caught up in this line.
The NT message is a word of reconciliation. If your message and ministry is not in this line, then you are in the wrong line.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A prophet will be called in ministry as a prophet.
A prophet will possess several of the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corin 12.
Prophecy - which by itself is just "speaking forth." There is no revelation in this gift. It is just anointed speech, speaking in the oracles of God.
Word of Knowledge - knowledge from the mind of God that is know to men, or could be discovered by natural means.
Word of Wisdom - knowledge from the mind of God that is not known to men, and cannot be discovered by natural means.
Most importantly, the NT prophet will work to fulfill the NT message (not the OT message).
The OT message was a word of condemnation. Unfortunately many today are caught up in this line.
The NT message is a word of reconciliation. If your message and ministry is not in this line, then you are in the wrong line.

Did you know that when God is angry with a nation, He withdraws its prophets. After Malachi, 400 years went by without any word coming through a prophet. This is because God had turned His back on Israel because they had turned their back on Him.

The Church today is powerless, having left its first love. God is not supporting it. When Jesus comes He is coming for a pure and spotless bride. He is not coming for what most of the Church has become - an impure, powerless hag. This is why there are no prophets from God today whose work is to warn the Church of the consequences of its idolatry. The church tells the Holy Spirit to come at 10am but kicks him out at 11am because the football game on television starts at 11:30am and the people have to get home to watch it. Then they give permission for the Holy Spirit to turn up at 7pm and tell Him He is no longer needed at 8pm. What the Church doesn't realise is that the Holy Spirit doesn't turn up, and the Church doesn't know the difference.

That's why there are no prophets in our church today. God has given it up to its idolatry.

The only way we can get the Holy Spirit back into our churches is that people humble themselves and pray, and repent of idolatry and ask Him to clean up our churches to make it the pure, spotless bride it should be.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Did you know that when God is angry with a nation, He withdraws its prophets. After Malachi, 400 years went by without any word coming through a prophet. This is because God had turned His back on Israel because they had turned their back on Him.

The Church today is powerless, having left its first love. God is not supporting it. When Jesus comes He is coming for a pure and spotless bride. He is not coming for what most of the Church has become - an impure, powerless hag. This is why there are no prophets from God today whose work is to warn the Church of the consequences of its idolatry. The church tells the Holy Spirit to come at 10am but kicks him out at 11am because the football game on television starts at 11:30am and the people have to get home to watch it. Then they give permission for the Holy Spirit to turn up at 7pm and tell Him He is no longer needed at 8pm. What the Church doesn't realise is that the Holy Spirit doesn't turn up, and the Church doesn't know the difference.

That's why there are no prophets in our church today. God has given it up to its idolatry.

The only way we can get the Holy Spirit back into our churches is that people humble themselves and pray, and repent of idolatry and ask Him to clean up our churches to make it the pure, spotless bride it should be.

I have to go with the scripture. The word tells us exactly how long apostles, prophets, pastors, etc. will with us:

Ephesians 4:11-16 ISV
11. And it is he who gifted some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, and still others to be pastors and teachers,
12. to equip the saints, to do the work of ministry, and to build up the body of the Messiah
13. until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.
14. Then we will no longer be little children, tossed like waves and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, or by clever strategies that would lead us astray.
15. Instead, by speaking the truth in love, we will grow up completely and become one with the head, that is, one with the Messiah,
16. in whom the whole body is united and held together by every ligament with which it is supplied. As each individual part does its job, the body builds itself up in love.

Since the things described in these verses have not been accomplished yet. We can know and believe that He will not take these ministries from us. It is precisely now that we need the body ministry.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have to go with the scripture. The word tells us exactly how long apostles, prophets, pastors, etc. will with us:

Ephesians 4:11-16 ISV
11. And it is he who gifted some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, and still others to be pastors and teachers,
12. to equip the saints, to do the work of ministry, and to build up the body of the Messiah
13. until all of us are united in the faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and until we attain mature adulthood and the full standard of development in the Messiah.
14. Then we will no longer be little children, tossed like waves and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, or by clever strategies that would lead us astray.
15. Instead, by speaking the truth in love, we will grow up completely and become one with the head, that is, one with the Messiah,
16. in whom the whole body is united and held together by every ligament with which it is supplied. As each individual part does its job, the body builds itself up in love.

Since the things described in these verses have not been accomplished yet. We can know and believe that He will not take these ministries from us. It is precisely now that we need the body ministry.

That would be true with a church that is working with the Holy Spirit and being led by Him, instead of what most churches are doing - trying to tell the Holy Spirit what He should be doing, nd doing it on their terms instead of His. Most, if not all our established churches would find it almost impossible to provide any evidence that the Holy Spirit is actually active in them. Most of what people say is the Holy Spirit is just speech making and motivational talking and pretending that the Holy Spirit is "blessing" what they are doing. Basically, the Church has left its first love and unless there is general repentance and turning back to God, He will come and spew it out of His mouth.

So you can quote Scripture until the cows come home, but it will remain just Scripture quotes, while churches just carry on with their man-designed programmes with the Holy Spirit having no say in what they do.

The Lord is coming for His bride. Most churches are nowhere near it because they are not conducting themselves as anything more than religious clubs, not there to serve God, but their own denominations and theologies.

Groups who are really serving God are those who are seeking God for a high standard of holiness, praying for revival in their communities, and seeing the sick healed, demons cast out, and the true Gospel is being preached with the result that outsiders are convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment to come. What really happens in most churches is that members do their religious thing and outsiders walk in and out unchanged.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

"So you can quote Scripture until the cows come home, but it will remain just Scripture quotes...."
Pretty much ends the discussion for me....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"So you can quote Scripture until the cows come home, but it will remain just Scripture quotes...."
Pretty much ends the discussion for me....

I hope it doesn't end your discussion with the Lord.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In actual fact, the original Charismatics who brought a renewal in their traditional churches were more concerned with holiness and winning souls for Christ. They kept to the basic theology of their own denominations and were very effective in it. It was when a new generation took over from the originals that the Charismatic movement tended away from the traditional churches to forming their own Charismatic denominations. A good example in the mid 1970s when a local Baptist church became Charismatic, and when the original leadership moved on and a new leadership took over, they moved out of the Baptist denomination and formed their own independent "Charismatic" church, made up of people who moved from their own denominational churches. In this way, they had moved from the original Charismatic vision into some merger that wasn't the original but not quite Pentecostal. By modern times, it is now a quite different Charismatic movement without the real cutting edge that the original had.

The originals had no idea of NT Prophets, nor did they have the desire to restore them. They didn't see the need for them in their vision of renewing their own denominations in holiness and effective preaching of the Gospel of Christ. The desire for NT Prophets is a phenomenon of the modern movement that people call Charismatic, which is not really the Charismatic that Dennis Bennett knew about.

 

[BobRyan]

I have already discussed this in the Sign Gifts forum, but I have decided to discuss it here so that a wider range of members can have the opportunity to give their opinions.

This is not a criticism of Charismatics, but because prophets and prophecy appear mainly within Charismatic environments I think that the belief that NT Prophets are itinerate ministries where people with the gift of prophecy go around giving general and personal prophetic words to people, and often these words include predictions of the future.

I too find some problems with Charismatic views of this - but the part above is consistent with the Bible. I don't find that part to be a problem.

Now I am assuming that the gift of prophecy is still active in the church, and people promulgating their cessationist view would not be helpful to the discussion.

ok - so far so good.

But, is having the gift of prophecy as described in 1 Corinthians 14, make someone a NT Prophet? Up until now, I have accepted that view, but after prayerful consideration, I am having my doubts.

Well I agree that there were prophets in the 1 Cor 14 case. And such could exist today as well

What came to me was that when Jesus spoke to the Seven Churches in Revelation, He was performing the function of a Prophet.

John was in the role of prophet in Revelation and Jesus in the role of God.

What He was doing was to bring encouragement and correction to those churches. In some ways, Paul was functioning as a Prophet in his first letter to the Corinthian church, and also to the Thessalonians, with a prediction of the future as he described the events around the second coming of Christ.

And in 2 Cor 12 we see Paul having some sort of vision and of course his letters were of God

I realised that an integral function of a Prophet was to ensure that the Church was going in the right direction and if they were straying away from being totally faithful to Christ, they should repent. It is interesting to me that John the Baptizer also called the Jewish nation to repent,

John said God spoke to him but other ministries also call people to repent --- that is not makes one a prophet

When I compared these with the OT Prophets, that was their message as well - for the people to forsake their idols and return to the Lord, otherwise accept the consequences. Their message was not popular and many of them were killed. It was described of Paul that he was "everywhere spoken against."

It is the same NT and OT

So, I wonder if the Charismatics have got it wrong in their definition of the NT Prophet

They do have some issues

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I too find some problems with Charismatic views of this - but the part above is consistent with the Bible. I don't find that part to be a problem.

ok - so far so good.

Well I agree that there were prophets in the 1 Cor 14 case. And such could exist today as well

John was in the role of prophet in Revelation and Jesus in the role of God.

And in 2 Cor 12 we see Paul having some sort of vision and of course his letters were of God


John said God spoke to him but other ministries also call people to repent --- that is not makes one a prophet

It is the same NT and OT

They do have some issues

The problem that we have today is that everything that we conclude about the function of NT Prophet is based on guesswork, because Paul does not supply us with a clear definition or an operating manual of how the NT Prophet should operate. We don't really know because we weren't there as eye witnesses or are able to get Paul aside and ask the questions we need to ask. So we really can't say that I am right and you are wrong, or that you are right and I am wrong. We could either be right or wrong whatever the case is.

We can't even base any theory on the way the early Pentecostals went about things, because we also were not there in the early 1900s. We have the testimonies and newspaper reports but can we rely on them without being there as eye witnesses to validate? No. It is the same with the start of the Charismatic movement as described by Dennis Bennett. I was just 13 years of age in 1960. It wasn't until 1966 that I became a believer, and that was in the AOG, not in the Charismatic movement of the time. But what I do know is that the Pentecostalism and Charismatic of today is nothing like what it was when I first received Christ. Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer and Jessie Duplantis were not around in 1966-67, and the only Charismatic group I came into contact with was a group in a suburban Methodist church, and they seemed pretty tame compared with the Pentecostal church I was going to at the time.

So, we can't really base anything reliable on any observation of the current Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, because 110 years after the first Pentecostal revival, the movement has changed so much that there is no comparison. Also the current Charismatic movement has changed out of sight since the early 1960s that it also is totally different to the movement that Dennis Bennett knew and was part of the initial revival.

In fact, it took only one or two generations for the power of the revival to evolve into just motivational speeches about the gifts but little actual manifestation of them. For example, the early Pentecostals got prophetic words from the Lord after hours of seeking and waiting on God in prayer, and they were powerful and life-changing. These days, people can get some sort of impression and jump up and give so called prophetic words without any prayerful preparation in their private prayer closets with God. It is no wonder that most of these words are forgotten by the time the next hymn is sung.

This is why all this talk about NT Prophets is just chin music. I would be more likely to trust a prophetic word from someone I know has been travailing and agonising with God for Him to speak powerfully to us words that will draw people to Christ and change their lives.