Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

[YAQUBOS]

I don't like the wording "refused to get baptised". Perhaps "chooses not to get baptised" would be better or even "doesn't make the effort to get baptised".

Baptism is something you RECEIVE, and not something you do. It is offered to you. You either ACCEPT it, or you REFUSE it.

I can't say for certain what the thief's first actions would be after having his life spared. I know what mine would be after being saved though. I would run all over town telling everyone that I was saved. Baptism in water definitely wouldn't be the first thing on my mind.

So you wouldn't rather run in that town as a disciple of Christ?

Is it alright if I go on a related tangent here for a bit?

Assume that there are still people in the world who have never heard the word of God in any fashion nor had access to any form of a Bible. Assume that we believe that you can only come to Christ if he calls upon your heart. Assume now that he decides to convict the heart of one of these people who are ignorant to the Bible and God's word in general. That person answers God's call and decides to live his life following the will of the Lord. He has no knowledge that a Bible even exists. He is out in the middle of nowhere in the rainforest and has no contact with the rest of the civilized world as we know it. What do you think his views on baptism would be? He's never even heard of it.

You assume I am saying that baptism is necessary for Salvation when you ask this question. But baptism is NOT necessary for Salvation. It is necessary IN Salvation.

A person whom Christ calls will surely follow Christ, wherever he is, even if he is all alone in an island. Christ will find the way to reach him with His Word, because there is nothing impossible for Jesus. A close, although not an exact, example of this is the example of Cornelius. You know how he was walking in the fear of God, according to the light that he had, but look what the angel told him:

"And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'" ( Acts 11:13-14 )

Cornelius couldn't be saved without hearing the Word of Christ, because:

"faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." ( Romans 10:17 )

And, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )

It is clearly written about the Name of Jesus Christ:

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." ( Acts 4:12 )

So there is no other way for Salvation than Jesus Christ.

Now, your question is based on a false assumption that supposes that I am saying that Salvation is by baptism. And that's wrong. I am saying baptism is necessary in Salvation, but I am not saying that baptism is necessary FOR Salvation. You don't get saved by being baptized. You get saved by faith alone in Christ alone. But my question to you was if this saved person would refuse to get baptized, and if even by refusing it he would still be a true believer.

As you can read about Cornelius:

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.
All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"
And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." ( Acts 10:44-48 )

So they didn't just "choose to get baptized" or "make the effort to get baptized" as you say, but the Apostle ORDERED THEM to be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. They could accept or refuse. But they wouldn't refuse, because they were saved and they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. And that was my question to you ( whether they would even refuse it. )

Baptism is a ritual and like most traditions, rituals and doctrines in modern Christianity I have a tendency to believe that they were added or modified to suit certain cultures over the millenia.

Jesus was clear:

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." ( Mark 16:16 )

We don't read here that baptism is a ritual that humans invented, but it is directly related to Salvation, because it is directly related to holiness. And, as you know, without holiness NO ONE shall see the Lord ( see Hebrews 12:14. )

Romans 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

I think that sums up all that is needed to be saved. This will get you into the gates. Anything beyond that is just going for extra credit.

What do you understand by "confess with thy mouth"?? Just to say it with your mouth??

Faith without works is dead, dear friend. If your faith is not an obedient faith and does not rejoice in obeying the commandments of the Lord ( including baptism, ) then it is a dead faith that cannot save you. Obeying the commandments of the Lord is not for extra credits. It is the natural fruit of living faith ( Love. ) If you love the Lord, you obey His commandments.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[Soul Searcher]

baptism is not one of the commandments. The closest you can get to it being a command would be that Jesus told his disciples to baptize people. He did not command people to be baptized.

And no it is not something you receive [at least not in the case of water baptism] it is a ritual that is preformed by many churches or ministers. It in itself has no power at all wether you are or are not dunked in the water has no bearing on your salvation, your life nor your actions beyond this ritual and the fact that you will be all wet when it is over.

 

[YAQUBOS]

baptism is not one of the commandments. The closest you can get to it being a command would be that Jesus told his disciples to baptize people. He did not command people to be baptized.

Yes, baptism is a command that Jesus gave to His Apostles ( and not to all His disciples, so correct your understanding about who a disciple is and how that is different from an Apostle. ) And through His Apostles, He gave that command to all His Church to preach the Gospel and to baptize believers, making them disciples. And the Apostles ( and also the Church, ) wherever they preach the Gospel, they give the same command to people, as follows:

"And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ." ( Acts 10:48 )

"Ordered them" means a command.

Now, all those who really believe in Christ obey this command.

And no it is not something you receive [at least not in the case of water baptism] it is a ritual that is preformed by many churches or ministers. It in itself has no power at all wether you are or are not dunked in the water has no bearing on your salvation, your life nor your actions beyond this ritual and the fact that you will be all wet when it is over.

But the Bible says that baptism is something you receive, and not something you do. It also says that a true believer is sanctified and is baptized. And without this sanctification no one will see the Lord.

This is how water baptism is not just a shower in which you get wet. It has a spiritual meaning that only the saints accept.

Although it is true that the water of baptism in itself has no power, but this doesn't mean that nothing is presented to us in baptism. Faith accepts what is presented to us in baptism, and thus baptism is related to Salvation ( it is necessary in Salvation ) :

"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" ( 1 Peter 3:21 )

When you really accept that part of the "appeal to God for a good conscience", then you have really accepted what is presented to you in baptism.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[Kerwin]

We are saved by grace, not by works. You cannot get to heaven through works and thus works are not the priority of salvation.

You probably dislike James not to mention Jesus since the earlier stated quite clearly that faith without works is dead and the latter was just as clear when he stated your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees if you wish to enter the kingdom of heaven. Then there is Paul who stated you are a servant to the one you serve whether it is sin or righteousness. The rest are all in agreement with these three and it is the overwhelming theme of scripture from first to last. I agree with them all that the only way you can truly be righteous is by the grace of God and that He works through our faith but if that work does not manifest itself in our flesh then it is our faith that is God because God is faithful and does as He promises.

As for baptism Peter clearly states in Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins" and he did not lie. I can point to at least one miracle where Jesus required the man in question to do a work before he received God's grace and yet I can assure you that it was God's grace and not that work that healed him. If you truly hold Jesus as Lord then believe and obey him and his true servants for if you do not you are a rebel.

 

[YAQUBOS]

We are saved by grace, not by works. You cannot get to heaven through works and thus works are not the priority of salvation. The focus of salvation is the repentance and redemption of sins.

Exactly! We are saved by Grace alone. If someone has not received this Grace, then he is not saved.

I am simply saying that it is not necessary to be baptised to be saved. As is evident by the thief on the cross. All he had to do was confess Jesus was the savior and he was saved.

Yes, baptism is not necessary for Salvation. But if you refuse to be baptized, then you are not saved, because baptism is necessary in Salvation.

Jesus doesn't give out different rules for different people. If the thief made it without being baptised then anyone can. He doesn't hold different people in different respects.

But if that thief could continue to live, he would get baptized as he was a true believer.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

You probably dislike James not to mention Jesus since the earlier stated quite clearly that faith without works is dead and the latter was just as clear when he stated your righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees if you wish to enter the kingdom of heaven. Then there is Paul who stated you are a servant to the one you serve whether it is sin or righteousness. The rest are all in agreement with these three and it is the overwhelming theme of scripture from first to last. I agree with them all that the only way you can truly be righteous is by the grace of God and that He works through our faith but if that work does not manifest itself in our flesh then it is our faith that is God because God is faithful and does as He promises.

As for baptism Peter clearly states in Acts 2:38 "repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins" and he did not lie. I can point to at least one miracle where Jesus required the man in question to do a work before he received God's grace and yet I can assure you that it was God's grace and not that work that healed him. If you truly hold Jesus as Lord then believe and obey him and his true servants for if you do not you are a rebel.

You don't receive the Grace of God by works, but by faith alone. Jesus was clear about it:

"Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."" ( John 6:28-29 )

He was quite clear when He said:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life." ( John 6:44-47 )

So, as it is impossible to please God by our dead works, then it is impossible to enter the Kingdom of God without being born of God. When we are born again, i.e. we are created in Christ Jesus, THEN - and only then - we begin to do good works as the fruit of Salvation; not OUR works, but the works that GOD has prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 )

So Salvation is not by anything you do by your will that is enslaved to sin, but by the Will of God ALONE:

"In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures." ( James 1:18 )

HE brought us forth ( gave us the new birth, ) and it is not we that have made ourselves be born again by our faith or by our works.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[chingchang]

To the OP question...

I'm convinced that one can use scripture to make a convincing case for or against baptism being a requirement for salvation. Enter reason. Can anyone imagine God withholding salvation from someone who believed in Jesus and lived a life of loving God and their neighbor simply because they didn't have their baptism doctrine right and were not baptised? I'm not saying God can't do that...he makes the rules and can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that if baptism truly is a requirement to enter Heaven...then I would think that would have been made MUCH clearer in scripture and this thread wouldn't exist.

All of that said...we are instructed to be baptised. I was baptised about 5 years ago...but I've been a believer for 18 years. I did it as an act of obedience. Nothing changed in my life after being baptised and I'm confident I was "saved" prior to my baptism .

Hugs,
chingchang

 

[YAQUBOS]

To the OP question...

I'm convinced that one can use scripture to make a convincing case for or against baptism being a requirement for salvation.

But your convictions are not the rule of our Faith. Only the Word of God is the rule of our Faith, and only that Word can interpret what is written in the Scripture.

Enter reason.

A very wrong tool to understand God's Will. Human reason is against God's Reason.

Can anyone imagine God withholding salvation from someone who believed in Jesus and lived a life of loving God and their neighbor simply because they didn't have their baptism doctrine right and were not baptised?

Yes, that's possible, because God doesn't save people because of their good and beautiful faith, but because of what Jesus did on the cross.

But baptism is not necessary for Salvation. It is a necessary part of Salvation, as we have seen.

I'm not saying God can't do that...he makes the rules and can do whatever he wants. I'm just saying that if baptism truly is a requirement to enter Heaven...then I would think that would have been made MUCH clearer in scripture and this thread wouldn't exist.

And who said that what baptism is is not clear in Scripture? The problem is with human heart that is blinded by sin. Only those who really learn from God and come to Jesus will understand these things.

All of that said...we are instructed to be baptised. I was baptised about 5 years ago...but I've been a believer for 18 years. I did it as an act of obedience. Nothing changed in my life after being baptised and I'm confident I was "saved" prior to my baptism .

Hugs,
chingchang

How do you know that you were saved?

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[chingchang]

But your convictions are not the rule of our Faith. Only the Word of God is the rule of our Faith, and only that Word can interpret what is written in the Scripture.

The 'Word of God' has come to me and I have accepted Him.

A very wrong tool to understand God's Will. Human reason is against God's Reason.

I speak from the position of a believer...by reason I mean "reason resulting from the renewing of my mind".

Yes, that's possible, because God doesn't save people because of their good and beautiful faith, but because of what Jesus did on the cross.

No. What Jesus completed on the cross is the 'how' not the 'why'. Why does God save people? He certainly does not save people because they were baptized. He saves people because he chooses to. Perhaps because he loves people...perhaps because he wants to give people a means of escape?

But baptism is not necessary for Salvation. It is a necessary part of Salvation, as we have seen.

Nah. What if I present the good news of Jesus Christ to someone on their death-bed and they accept him with joy...but then die and never have an opportunity to be baptised? This is a scenario that DOES happen. Because I believe that God can shower his grace in situations like that and show his mercy when and where he pleases...then I must conclude that baptism IS NOT a necessary part of salvation as you say. I do believe that Jesus has commanded us to be baptised...and he said if we love him we would obey his commands. That is why I got baptised. I was "saved" before that event and "saved" after as well. Nothing changed.

And who said that what baptism is is not clear in Scripture? The problem is with human heart that is blinded by sin. Only those who really learn from God and come to Jesus will understand these things.

I'm not saying that the scripture isn't clear on baptism. We need to do it. Just like my daughter needs to do what I tell her to do. The OP question is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation...and the answer is NO!

How do you know that you were saved?

The same way that you know that you were saved? Paul seemed to think it was something that had to continually be worked-out. I'm a special case though...God gave me a glorious vision when I was 17 years old that changed my life. I was an atheist prior to the vision...and a believer in Jesus Christ thereafter.

Be in Peace!

And ye as well...
CC

 

[YAQUBOS]

The 'Word of God' has come to me and I have accepted Him.

I was talking about the written Word of God. So you replied off topic.

But here also we can ask:

1. How do you know that He came to you? Did you see Him with your eyes?

2. How do you know that you accepted HIM, and not another one?

I speak from the position of a believer...by reason I mean "reason resulting from the renewing of my mind".

But how can we be sure that your mind is renewed?

N.B.: I am not saying that your mind is not renewed. I am only showing you how what you said doesn't make human reason a good tool to know God's Will. Even a believer has the flesh in him, so how can I know that you are not talking with a fleshly reason?

No. What Jesus completed on the cross is the 'how' not the 'why'. Why does God save people? He certainly does not save people because they were baptized. He saves people because he chooses to. Perhaps because he loves people...perhaps because he wants to give people a means of escape?

There is not a "why" nor a "how" for Salvation other than JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED. NOTHING in us makes God save us.

And what you said here proves that your reasoning in the previous reply was wrong. If God saves humans because of HIS choice or HIS love, then it's not because of their good and beautiful faith.

Nah. What if I present the good news of Jesus Christ to someone on their death-bed and they accept him with joy...but then die and never have an opportunity to be baptised? This is a scenario that DOES happen. Because I believe that God can shower his grace in situations like that and show his mercy when and where he pleases...then I must conclude that baptism IS NOT a necessary part of salvation as you say.

What you say here means that baptism is not necessary FOR Salvation. But it doesn't contradict the fact that baptism is a necessary part of Salvation, because that person on his death-bed cannot be saved without accepting what baptism presents to him, even if he is not able to be baptized.

I do believe that Jesus has commanded us to be baptised...and he said if we love him we would obey his commands. That is why I got baptised. I was "saved" before that event and "saved" after as well. Nothing changed.

Baptism is not something YOU do, so it's not only the event or the time when you entered the water and got baptized. Baptism presents to you the work of Christ on the cross. If, as you think, you were saved before that "event", then you should present any basis for your assurance. Can you?

I'm not saying that the scripture isn't clear on baptism. We need to do it. Just like my daughter needs to do what I tell her to do. The OP question is whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation...and the answer is NO!

Yes, baptism is not necessary for Salvation. But how do you know this? Isn't it by what the BIBLE says CLEARLY?

The same way that you know that you were saved?

How do I know that I am saved?

Turning it over to me doesn't help. You need to have a basis for your assurance. So go ahead and tell us, just in case you want to share.

Paul seemed to think it was something that had to continually be worked-out.

Why are all your sentences full of "perhaps" and "seemed" and words like these? Don't you have assurances? Is not the Word of God clear?

Paul never taught that Salvation is something you do. The passage where you read about working out your Salvation is about people who are already saved and who KNOW that they are saved, or else they cannot work out their Salvation. It wouldn't be "their" already if they had to have it yet.

I'm a special case though...God gave me a glorious vision when I was 17 years old that changed my life. I was an atheist prior to the vision...and a believer in Jesus Christ thereafter.

A special case that is an exception for Paul's advice to work out your Salvation?

So you still didn't tell me how you know that you were saved. You only told me about a "vision" or an experience that you had. And this is not a sure and strong basis for your assurance. You are a human who changes all the time, so you can't rely on your feelings or experiences or visions.

More than that: other sinners cannot rely on your vision to have the assurance of Salvation. So you need to give them the right basis on which they can build their assurance.

And ye as well...
CC

Thank you.

Grace be with you!

YAQUBOS†

 

[chingchang]

There is not a "why" nor a "how" for Salvation other than JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED. NOTHING in us makes God save us.

And what you said here proves that your reasoning in the previous reply was wrong. If God saves humans because of HIS choice or HIS love, then it's not because of their good and beautiful faith.

I appologize in advance...but I don't recall saying anything about "their good and beautiful faith". You said that. And...I strongly disagree (although I respect your right to your opinion) concerning your statement "there is not a 'why' nor a 'how' for Salvation". Certainly there is. There had to be a 'why' before there could be a 'how'. I do agree that nothing in us makes God save us. Nothing makes God do anything. I believe that God operates out of free will and chooses us because he wants to. There must be something about us that he like (loves) enought to save us. Otherwise God just likes to collect trash...no?

What you say here means that baptism is not necessary FOR Salvation. But it doesn't contradict the fact that baptism is a necessary part of Salvation, because that person on his death-bed cannot be saved without accepting what baptism presents to him, even if he is not able to be baptized.

All they have to do is "believe in me" (what Yeshua said)...or more specifically what Paul said in Romans 10:9. Note that Paul did not say "confess with your mouth...believe in your heart...AND 'accept what baptism presents' and you will be saved". Your rules...not Yeshua's.

Baptism is not something YOU do, so it's not only the event or the time when you entered the water and got baptized. Baptism presents to you the work of Christ on the cross. If, as you think, you were saved before that "event", then you should present any basis for your assurance. Can you?

Baptism doesn't prove that you are saved. My sister has been baptised 3 times at a Baptist camp as a youth and doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God. The beauty of a relationship with Yeshua is that I don't have to prove to you or anyone else that I indeed do have a relationship. And in reality...there is no way I can prove to you that I am in right-standing with God because only my Father knows my heart. But...since you keep pushing on this...I prayed "the prayer". I truly asked for forgiveness and for Yeshua to come into my life and change it and use me for his purposes. Three days later I had my life changing vision in which Yeshua physically touched me and I saw the "lights" in Heaven. The water baptism that I received did not give me any "special" gifts/abilities...no secret scripture decoder glasses.

Yes, baptism is not necessary for Salvation. But how do you know this? Isn't it by what the BIBLE says CLEARLY?

Wait...you said that baptism IS a necessary part of Salvation. "How do you know this?" Hmmm...because the Spirit of the Most High God lives in me. He blesses me shows favor on me. I've read and understand the Bible.

How do I know that I am saved?

Shoot...I don't "know" that anybody is saved. The Bible says that "few are those that find it".

Turning it over to me doesn't help. You need to have a basis for your assurance. So go ahead and tell us, just in case you want to share.

See above.

Why are all your sentences full of "perhaps" and "seemed" and words like these? Don't you have assurances? Is not the Word of God clear?

Do you mean 'Is not the Bible clear'? The 'Word became flesh'...the Bible did not. Well...the Bible is clear to those that think we'll be raptured before the tribulation and those that believe it will happend mid way...and even those that think it will happen post-trib. The Bible is clear to those that think you can't be saved unless you are baptised and those that think that baptism is not necessary for salvation. The Bible is clear to those that think praying to Mary is good and necessary and clear to those that think it is blasphemy to pray to Mary. The Bible is clear to those that think we (individually) are chosen by God and those that think anyone and everyone has the ability to come to God. The Bible is clear to some people that drinking alcohol is a sin...and clear to others that even moderate drinking is ok. The Bible is "clear" to those that think polygamy is o.k...and still clear to those that think polygamy is a sin. And on...and on...and on...and round-and-round we go. THAT is why my sentences contain words like "perhaps" and "seemed". So...no...the Bible is NOT clear on many things. It even contradicts itself in parts. Folks that cling to Bible inerrancy more than the message of the Christ will come up with all kinds of interesting and crafty ways to explain these contradictions. But...Biblical scholars know that the Bible contains these problems...that is why many modern Churches will put "We believe in the inerrancy of God's Word in the original manuscripts" on their "What we believe" section of their websites. Guess what...the original manuscripts don't exist (unless the Catholic Church has them hidden away in the Vatican somewhere and doesn't want anyone to see them).

Paul never taught that Salvation is something you do. The passage where you read about working out your Salvation is about people who are already saved and who KNOW that they are saved, or else they cannot work out their Salvation. It wouldn't be "their" already if they had to have it yet.

Agreed. I must not have done a good job explaining my view.

A special case that is an exception for Paul's advice to work out your Salvation?

A special case as in I've seen something that very few will get to see until they die.

So you still didn't tell me how you know that you were saved. You only told me about a "vision" or an experience that you had. And this is not a sure and strong basis for your assurance. You are a human who changes all the time, so you can't rely on your feelings or experiences or visions.

See above. I CAN rely on my experience. Religion will tell you that you can't. Doesn't a "relationship" with Christ mean that we will have experiences? You can't rely on my experience...but I can.

More than that: other sinners cannot rely on your vision to have the assurance of Salvation. So you need to give them the right basis on which they can build their assurance.

I'm not sure what you mean. My vision is a real experience and part of my testimony which is something that makes the fairly tale more real for "those who are perishing" who think the message is "foolishness". If you couple real experience with the message...it makes it real for nonbelievers who are open to listening. If I just tell them "the Bible says...." they generally don't respond to that. Most nonbelievers I interact with already know what the Good News is...they are just not able to believe it. They need to have their own relationship with God and their own experiences...but sharing my experience can go a long way toward moving them along that path.

Thank you.

No...thank you!

Grace be with you!

And with ye!

CC

 

[YAQUBOS]

I appologize in advance...but I don't recall saying anything about "their good and beautiful faith". You said that.

You said:

Can anyone imagine God withholding salvation from someone who believed in Jesus and lived a life of loving God and their neighbor simply because they didn't have their baptism doctrine right and were not baptised?

And I said it's possible, because God doesn't save people for their good and beautiful faith.

If you agree with this, then no need to contradict.

And...I strongly disagree (although I respect your right to your opinion) concerning your statement "there is not a 'why' nor a 'how' for Salvation". Certainly there is. There had to be a 'why' before there could be a 'how'. I do agree that nothing in us makes God save us. Nothing makes God do anything. I believe that God operates out of free will and chooses us because he wants to. There must be something about us that he like (loves) enought to save us. Otherwise God just likes to collect trash...no?

There is NOTHING in us that God can like or love so that He may save us. And this doesn't mean that God likes to collect trash, but that He loves trash like us enough to SAVE us. He didn't call us for the purpose of impurity, but IN holiness and Sanctification. He called ONLY those whom He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. So we are not trash in Christ, but a holy nation.

On the contrary: If God would choose anyone for any good quality in him, then all would be lost! And if He chose anyone for those bad qualities, it would be THEN that He would be a trash collector. God forbid!

All they have to do is "believe in me" (what Yeshua said)...or more specifically what Paul said in Romans 10:9. Note that Paul did not say "confess with your mouth...believe in your heart...AND 'accept what baptism presents' and you will be saved". Your rules...not Yeshua's.

Note it well: "confess with your mouth" means something.

Let's see what it means practically:

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." ( Mark 16:16 )

You are talking about what baptism presents, as if it is something different than JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED...

Baptism doesn't prove that you are saved.

Exactly.

My sister has been baptised 3 times at a Baptist camp as a youth and doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

Her being baptized 3 times already proves something...

The beauty of a relationship with Yeshua is that I don't have to prove to you or anyone else that I indeed do have a relationship.

So you can't use your human reason to prove anything about Him, unless you can first prove that you have His mind. As you say you don't need to prove that you have His mind, then let's go back to the Scripture, the only rule of our Faith.

And in reality...there is no way I can prove to you that I am in right-standing with God because only my Father knows my heart. But...since you keep pushing on this...I prayed "the prayer".

Which "prayer" ? Can you quote it from the Scripture? Or is it again another personal experience?

I truly asked for forgiveness and for Yeshua to come into my life and change it and use me for his purposes.

1. How did you know that this is what you needed to ask Him?

2. How did you know that He answered your prayer?

Three days later I had my life changing vision in which Yeshua physically touched me and I saw the "lights" in Heaven.

Personal experience. Sinners cannot build on this their faith and assurance.

The water baptism that I received did not give me any "special" gifts/abilities...no secret scripture decoder glasses.

And who said it would?

Wait...you said that baptism IS a necessary part of Salvation.

Yes! But baptism is NOT necessary FOR Salvation.

"How do you know this?" Hmmm...because the Spirit of the Most High God lives in me.

How can I be sure He does? How can I know that you are not deceiving me?

Once again: I am NOT saying you are deceiving me, O.K.? I am continuing the argument about the importance of the Scripture as the only rule for our Faith.

He blesses me shows favor on me.

How can I be sure?

I've read and understand the Bible.

And what does the Bible say?

Finally, we got to the point.

Shoot...I don't "know" that anybody is saved. The Bible says that "few are those that find it".

So now you changed your mind and you say that you don't know if you are saved?

See above.

Saw no assurance.

Do you mean 'Is not the Bible clear'?

Yes, I mean "Is not the Word of God clear?"

The 'Word became flesh'...

And the Word was written.

the Bible did not.

I didn't say that the Bible became flesh. The written Word of God doesn't need to become flesh so that it may have the right to be obeyed. David loved the Word of God, and yet it was not flesh.

Well...the Bible is clear to those that think we'll be raptured before the tribulation and those that believe it will happend mid way...and even those that think it will happen post-trib.

If humans do not understand the Bible in the same way, that doesn't mean that the Bible is not clear. That means that humans are not perfect.

The Bible is clear to those that think you can't be saved unless you are baptised and those that think that baptism is not necessary for salvation.

See my answer to the previous quote.

The Bible is clear to those that think praying to Mary is good and necessary and clear to those that think it is blasphemy to pray to Mary.

NOTHING about praying to Mary is said in the Bible, and MUCH is said against worshiping humans. So your example is irrelevant, because you need to ADD something to the Bible in order to worship a creature without shame!

The Bible is clear to those that think we (individually) are chosen by God and those that think anyone and everyone has the ability to come to God.

Yes, the Bible clearly says that NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him/her. So everyone can come and have life, but NO ONE is able to save himself.

The Bible is not responsible of human ignorance. The Bible is clear.

The Bible is clear to some people that drinking alcohol is a sin...and clear to others that even moderate drinking is ok.

Once again, the Bible is not responsible of human ignorance. The Bible is clear.

The Bible is "clear" to those that think polygamy is o.k...and still clear to those that think polygamy is a sin.

Yes, for you nothing is clear. But the Bible is clear about these issues, because these are moral issues.

And on...and on...and on...and round-and-round we go.

Yes, round-and-round you go as long as you don't have saving faith.

THAT is why my sentences contain words like "perhaps" and "seemed".

But you need to really BELIEVE what the Bible CLEARLY says, and to have ASSURANCES by having faith in God. Or else you will continue to live in uncertainties.

So...no...the Bible is NOT clear on many things.

It IS clear. But at the same time it is also clear that humans are sooo ignorant and separated from the mind of God because of sin.

It even contradicts itself in parts.

You mean God contradicts Himself?...

Well, go ahead and show me ONE contradiction. This is a challenge.

Folks that cling to Bible inerrancy more than the message of the Christ will come up with all kinds of interesting and crafty ways to explain these contradictions.

No need. We only need to quote the Bible that explains itself.

But...Biblical scholars know that the Bible contains these problems...

Once again, here is the challenge: show me any contradiction.

that is why many modern Churches will put "We believe in the inerrancy of God's Word in the original manuscripts"

And who said that any true believer believes in any other kind of inerrancy? If you don't understand what biblical inerrancy is, then you don't need to blame others for your ignorance.

on their "What we believe" section of their websites. Guess what...the original manuscripts don't exist (unless the Catholic Church has them hidden away in the Vatican somewhere and doesn't want anyone to see them).

We have ALL what the original manuscripts contained.

A special case as in I've seen something that very few will get to see until they die.

Again your personal opinion and conclusion. But our rule of faith is NOT your personal opinions, but the WORD OF GOD.

See above. I CAN rely on my experience.

No, you can't. Prove me wrong.

Religion will tell you that you can't.

On the contrary, religion tells you you can.

Doesn't a "relationship" with Christ mean that we will have experiences?

Yes. But that doesn't mean that you will BUILD that relationship on experiences, because you may have experiences that are NOT from Christ, and yet your fallen human mind can think that they are experiences from and with Christ.

You can't rely on my experience...but I can.

No, you can't. Prove me wrong.

I can very simply quote for you many passages from the Bible that say that you can't rely on your experiences as a good basis for your assurance. Let me give you one of those passages:

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" ( Matthew 7:21-23 )

Beautiful experiences, and in the Name of Christ! But only lawlessness...

I'm not sure what you mean. My vision is a real experience and part of my testimony which is something that makes the fairly tale more real for "those who are perishing" who think the message is "foolishness". If you couple real experience with the message...it makes it real for nonbelievers who are open to listening. If I just tell them "the Bible says...." they generally don't respond to that. Most nonbelievers I interact with already know what the Good News is...they are just not able to believe it. They need to have their own relationship with God and their own experiences...but sharing my experience can go a long way toward moving them along that path.

But they can't build their assurance on your experiences. It's not your experiences that will save them, but the Good Seed of God, the WORD OF GOD:

"Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." ( James 1:21 )

Experiences with Christ are a beautiful testimony. But they can't save and they can't be a good basis for anyone's assurance. In the passage that I quoted from Matthew 7 ( above, ) those people can tell about their beautiful experiences as they were casting out demons and performing many miracles in Christ's Name. But this is not a sure basis on which we can build our assurance, because their words may be full of lies, as Jesus also warned us about them as being false prophets.

No...thank you!

You can't even accept thanks?

OK, I redirect your thanks to the Lord, because HE alone, and not me, is WORTHY.

And with ye!

CC

Thank you!

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS†

 

[chingchang]

There is NOTHING in us that God can like or love so that He may save us. And this doesn't mean that God likes to collect trash, but that He loves trash like us enough to SAVE us. He didn't call us for the purpose of impurity, but IN holiness and Sanctification. He called ONLY those whom He predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son. So we are not trash in Christ, but a holy nation.

I'm well aware of the doctrine of predestination...so you don't have to school-me. I've read the book by R.C. Sproul "Chosen by God" and studied the Bible on this topic.

On the contrary: If God would choose anyone for any good quality in him, then all would be lost! And if He chose anyone for those bad qualities, it would be THEN that He would be a trash collector. God forbid!

This is going to go nowhere. God made us (humans) and there must be something about us that he likes/loves...otherwise he'd burn us up and move on. You have your opinion...I have mine. You guard yours well.

Note it well: "confess with your mouth" means something.

Let's see what it means practically:

"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned." ( Mark 16:16 )

You are talking about what baptism presents, as if it is something different than JESUS CHRIST CRUCIFIED...

Yeshua says that as a matter of truth/fact. Note that he did not say "ONLY he who has believed AND has been baptised shall be saved".

Her being baptized 3 times already proves something...

I would generally agree...but that was a long time ago and only the Most High God knows men's hearts.

So you can't use your human reason to prove anything about Him, unless you can first prove that you have His mind. As you say you don't need to prove that you have His mind, then let's go back to the Scripture, the only rule of our Faith.

Scripture may be the ONLY rule of your Faith...but is ONLY one of the rules of mine (and in a different way than yours) because I have had a personal experience with Yeshua that I can't deny.

Which "prayer" ? Can you quote it from the Scripture? Or is it again another personal experience?

You've got some good questions here. The prayer that I prayed is a typical evangelical Christian-style prayer-of-salvation. You know it. Many have prayed it.

1. How did you know that this is what you needed to ask Him?

The men that brought me the Good News referenced scripture. But they simply could have brought me that news in an oral-tradition format and I would have accepted it. The fact that the truth appears as words in a book doesn't make that truth anymore true.

2. How did you know that He answered your prayer?

By the change that has taken place in my life and the vision he gave me.

Personal experience. Sinners cannot build on this their faith and assurance.

Sure they can. I'm a 'sinner' and I have built my faith and assurance on my experience as well as the Godly wisdom I've obtained from studying the Bible.

Yes! But baptism is NOT necessary FOR Salvation.

So we agree!

How can I be sure He does? How can I know that you are not deceiving me?

I can tell you the truth as I have experienced it and then you have to exercise faith...or not. However...I can tell you with absolutely certainty that Heaven is real and it is going to be awesome! I hope that encourages you and builds-you-up. If you have the Spirit...then you need no man to teach you. The Spirit in you should let you know if someone is deceiving you (i.e. a false teacher). Even the strong delusion that God is sending during this time won't lead the elect astray...so if you are the elect then what are you worried about?

Once again: I am NOT saying you are deceiving me, O.K.? I am continuing the argument about the importance of the Scripture as the only rule for our Faith.

That is o.k. You speak from your experience...because that is what you know. I speak from mine.

So now you changed your mind and you say that you don't know if you are saved?

I feel that I am saved...but that feeling changes with time from "sorta sure" to "absolutely sure". I think that is what Paul was talking about when he said "...workout your faith with...". We are being saved...therefore it needs to be worked-out.

Saw no assurance.

And I can show you none...only my Father knows my heart.

If humans do not understand the Bible in the same way, that doesn't mean that the Bible is not clear. That means that humans are not perfect.

I believe strongly that both are true. Humans are not perfect and either is the Bible...which humans authored...and then copied many times over and made all kinds of errors in that process...mostly unintentional...some intentional. This can be proved. If you are interested in the field of Biblical Textual Criticism then pursue that.

Yes, the Bible clearly says that NO ONE can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him/her. So everyone can come and have life, but NO ONE is able to save himself.

So everyone has been drawn by the Father?

The Bible is not responsible of human ignorance. The Bible is clear.

I agree completely with the your first sentence above and totally disagreee with you second sentence. Again, I respect your right to your opinion. You don't have a monopoly on truth.

Once again, the Bible is not responsible of human ignorance. The Bible is clear.

O.k...perhaps if you continue to say that it will sink-in. This technique has been proven to work on the sheeple.

Yes, for you nothing is clear. But the Bible is clear about these issues, because these are moral issues.

Actually...I'm seeing God with increasing clarity lately. I'm now able to see the forest through the trees. The Bible is clear on these issues to those whose exegesis is flawed...IMHO. One day all of this will be resolved.

Yes, round-and-round you go as long as you don't have saving faith.

Hmmm...you've convinced me...I'm not saved because I don't think exactly like you do.

But you need to really BELIEVE what the Bible CLEARLY says, and to have ASSURANCES by having faith in God. .

No...all I need to believe is that Yeshua died on the cross as a sacrifice for me and that he rose from the dead. Everything else comes after that and is debateable (that is why these forums exist...not to mention the many various churches out there).

It IS clear. But at the same time it is also clear that humans are sooo ignorant and separated from the mind of God because of sin.

But apparently you are clear...just like the Bible. I suppose your mission is to tell everyone else how it is...

You mean God contradicts Himself?...

No. The Bible is not God. Please read...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliolatry

Well, go ahead and show me ONE contradiction. This is a challenge.

Are you joking? This is what I meant by round-and-round we go. Search the internet for the various contradictions. I've studied ALL of them (that I've found so far) and I can explain about 80% of them. The other 20% require much reading-between-the-lines and inserting reasoning into text rather than letting the text explain itself. The field of Christian Apologetics is another good study if you aren't familiar.

No need. We only need to quote the Bible that explains itself.

Once again, here is the challenge: show me any contradiction.

Waste of time. If you want to know...search.

And who said that any true believer believes in any other kind of inerrancy? If you don't understand what biblical inerrancy is, then you don't need to blame others for your ignorance.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Fundamentalists believe the Bible is inerrant...meaning "without error". They believe that the Bible is the inerrant 'Word of God'. I know...I used to be one. I've learned that the Bible is absolutely NOT the 'Word of God'...but it definitely contains the 'Word of God'. This obviously has a significant effect on one's exegesis.

We have ALL what the original manuscripts contained.

No we don't. That is fact. Learn...

Again your personal opinion and conclusion. But our rule of faith is NOT your personal opinions, but the WORD OF GOD.

I couldn't agree more that the 'Word of God' is clear. I just know that the 'Word of God' is not the Bible.

"Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." ( James 1:21 )

Some would say that since the 'Word was God' that the 'word implanted' is the Holy Spirit...since a book can't 'save your souls'. Perhaps it is the Spirit of the text that is inerrant...not that actual text itself? I'm sure you have clarity on that....

Experiences with Christ are a beautiful testimony. But they can't save and they can't be a good basis for anyone's assurance. In the passage that I quoted from Matthew 7 ( above, ) those people can tell about their beautiful experiences as they were casting out demons and performing many miracles in Christ's Name. But this is not a sure basis on which we can build our assurance, because their words may be full of lies, as Jesus also warned us about them as being false prophets.

I'm starting to think you've never had an experience with Yeshua outside of the Bible. I guess your faith would be destroyed if all of the Bibles were gathered up all across the world and burned-up? When Paul brought the Good News to the Gentiles did his words mean nothing to them until he put them in letters? The 'Word of God' lives and is true regardless of the Bible in my estimation.

You can't even accept thanks?

Yes I can...I was joking.

OK, I redirect your thanks to the Lord, because HE alone, and not me, is WORTHY.

Amen!

Thank you!

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS†

And you as well Brother! It is a shame that we have much to share with each other and are limited to this type of communication. If you ever make it down to the Austin/San Antonio area and want to share thoughts over a cup of coffee...let me know.

Hugs,
CC

 

[YAQUBOS]

I'm well aware of the doctrine of predestination...so you don't have to school-me. I've read the book by R.C. Sproul "Chosen by God" and studied the Bible on this topic.

So if indeed you understood what the Bible says, you don't need to contradict it in your replies that are full of human assumptions.

This is going to go nowhere. God made us (humans) and there must be something about us that he likes/loves...otherwise he'd burn us up and move on. You have your opinion...I have mine. You guard yours well.

But neither my opinion nor yours is the rule of our faith. ONLY the Word of God is the rule of our faith. And the Bible clearly says that there was nothing good in us that God liked or loved in order to save us, but that it was PURE GRACE.

Yeshua says that as a matter of truth/fact. Note that he did not say "ONLY he who has believed AND has been baptised shall be saved".

Yes, because baptism is not necessary for Salvation. But it is a necessary part of Salvation.

You can't flee from the clearness of the Scripture.

I would generally agree...but that was a long time ago and only the Most High God knows men's hearts.

And He has given us His Word, so that by it we may have DISCERNMENT.

Scripture may be the ONLY rule of your Faith...but is ONLY one of the rules of mine (and in a different way than yours) because I have had a personal experience with Yeshua that I can't deny.

I didn't tell you to deny your experience. I said build it on the right Rock.

You've got some good questions here. The prayer that I prayed is a typical evangelical Christian-style prayer-of-salvation. You know it. Many have prayed it.

Quote it from the Bible.
Show me anywhere in the Bible where it is said that a "prayer" can save you or give you the assurance of Salvation.

The men that brought me the Good News referenced scripture.

Thank you for finally saying it.

But they simply could have brought me that news in an oral-tradition format and I would have accepted it. The fact that the truth appears as words in a book doesn't make that truth anymore true.

You are simply saying that the Word of God is as much powerful when heard as it is when read. Well, that's very right. But once again you agree that the Word of God is the ONLY rule of our faith.

By the change that has taken place in my life and the vision he gave me.

How do you know that this is a GOOD change?

Sure they can. I'm a 'sinner' and I have built my faith and assurance on my experience as well as the Godly wisdom I've obtained from studying the Bible.

And yet you are not sure whether you are saved or not. So you have not built any assurance yet.

I can tell you the truth as I have experienced it and then you have to exercise faith...or not.

I have to exercise faith in what you say? Or in what GOD says?

How can I know for sure that you are not lying?

However...I can tell you with absolutely certainty that Heaven is real and it is going to be awesome!

Prove it. Did you ever go to Heaven?

I hope that encourages you and builds-you-up. If you have the Spirit...then you need no man to teach you.

How can I know if I have the Spirit?

Do you have the Spirit? Then tell me how you are sure that you have Him.

The Spirit in you should let you know if someone is deceiving you (i.e. a false teacher).

Once again: How can I first be sure that what I have is the Spirit of God and not another spirit?

Even the strong delusion that God is sending during this time won't lead the elect astray...so if you are the elect then what are you worried about?

How can I know if I am an elect?

Are you an elect? How do you know that?

That is o.k. You speak from your experience...because that is what you know. I speak from mine.

No, I am telling you what the Bible says, while you are telling me what your feelings and experiences are.

Quote any Bible passage as evidence for all what you are saying.

I feel that I am saved...but that feeling changes with time from "sorta sure" to "absolutely sure". I think that is what Paul was talking about when he said "...workout your faith with...". We are being saved...therefore it needs to be worked-out.

Paul never said that we should work out our faith...

Well, as I already told you before, you can't work out your Salvation if you don't already have that Salvation.

In brief, you don't have any assurance concerning Salvation. So I invite you to build your faith on the rock of the Word instead of the sand of your feelings, so that you may really have the Salvation of the Lord and be SURE of it.

And I can show you none...only my Father knows my heart.

So your experiences are not a good basis for other sinners to build their faith and assurance on. You finally said it yourself.

I believe strongly that both are true. Humans are not perfect and either is the Bible...which humans authored...

And your beliefs are not the rule of our faith. ONLY the Word of God is the rule of our faith.

N.B.: God says that the Holy Spirit is the real Author of the Bible. Do you think that the Holy Spirit is a human?

and then copied many times over and made all kinds of errors in that process...mostly unintentional...some intentional. This can be proved. If you are interested in the field of Biblical Textual Criticism then pursue that.

This is irrelevant to the fact that the Word of God is very clear and very right, without ANY error in it, because God cannot do errors.

So everyone has been drawn by the Father?

How did you conclude that from what I said?? You see how a bad tool is the human mind to understand God's Word?

What I said means that ONLY those who are saved are drawn by the Father, although Salvation is available to everyone.

I agree completely with the your first sentence above and totally disagreee with you second sentence. Again, I respect your right to your opinion. You don't have a monopoly on truth.

The Word of God is truth. And I am telling you what the Word of God says.

Your respect or disrespect for it, and your agreement or disagreement with it is irrelevant as to it being the only truth. Whether a blind agrees there are stars in heaven or he doesn't is irrelevant to the fact that there are stars in heaven.

O.k...perhaps if you continue to say that it will sink-in. This technique has been proven to work on the sheeple.

Sarcasm will only do harm to you.

Actually...I'm seeing God with increasing clarity lately. I'm now able to see the forest through the trees. The Bible is clear on these issues to those whose exegesis is flawed...IMHO. One day all of this will be resolved.

It's really bad from you to talk in such confident words when you don't even have the assurance of Salvation.

Hmmm...you've convinced me...I'm not saved because I don't think exactly like you do.

As I told you before, sarcasm will hurt you. So be careful.

I repeated it again and again that I am NOT saying you are not saved. I clearly explained to you that I am continuing the argument about the Scripture. So don't be hypocrite, and don't make it look like I didn't explain this point.

If you don't have an answer to my comment that the lack of saving faith makes you turn round and round in circular thinking, then don't embarrass yourself with light sarcasm.

No...all I need to believe is that Yeshua died on the cross as a sacrifice for me and that he rose from the dead. Everything else comes after that and is debateable (that is why these forums exist...not to mention the many various churches out there).

Jesus said that the Word of God is the truth. It is by knowing this truth that you are made free, or else you remain a slave to sin. Debate the truth as much as you want; but that is NOT called "knowing or accepting the truth as it is."

By the way, you seem to be ignorant about the fact that Jesus Christ has only ONE Church on this earth, and that there is only ONE baptism...

But apparently you are clear...just like the Bible. I suppose your mission is to tell everyone else how it is...

I am a sinner just like you. And I am insisting that what God says is the only truth. Without His Light we walk in TOTAL darkness.

No. The Bible is not God. Please read...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliolatry

1. I never said that the Bible is God. I am saying that the Bible is the Word of God.

2. Wikipedia is not the rule of our faith. The Word of God is.

Are you joking?

No, I am totally serious, while it is YOU who are turning to sarcasm.

This is what I meant by round-and-round we go. Search the internet for the various contradictions.

Didn't find any. Go ahead, and meet the challenge instead of running.

I've studied ALL of them (that I've found so far) and I can explain about 80% of them. The other 20% require much reading-between-the-lines and inserting reasoning into text rather than letting the text explain itself. The field of Christian Apologetics is another good study if you aren't familiar.

Boasting about your imperfect studies doesn't impress the children of God. Go ahead, and meet the challenge.

Waste of time. If you want to know...search.

So you fail to meet the challenge. So the Bible doesn't contain any contradiction, and your accusation was purely an accusation without any basis or evidence.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Fundamentalists believe the Bible is inerrant...meaning "without error". They believe that the Bible is the inerrant 'Word of God'. I know...I used to be one. I've learned that the Bible is absolutely NOT the 'Word of God'...but it definitely contains the 'Word of God'. This obviously has a significant effect on one's exegesis.

You don't know what biblical inerrancy is, so don't try to look wise by telling us that you used to believe it. It is clear of what you say here that you never knew what biblical inerrancy is.

Jesus said that the Bible is the Word of God, and also the Apostles of the Lord taught us the same thing. I am sure you don't know better than the Lord.

No we don't. That is fact. Learn...

We DO have ALL what the original manuscripts contained. Prove me wrong, or else don't just throw words.

I couldn't agree more that the 'Word of God' is clear. I just know that the 'Word of God' is not the Bible.

While the Lord says the Bible is the written Word of God. You disagree with the One you call "Lord, Lord!" ...

Some would say that since the 'Word was God' that the 'word implanted' is the Holy Spirit...since a book can't 'save your souls'. Perhaps it is the Spirit of the text that is inerrant...not that actual text itself? I'm sure you have clarity on that....

What "some" would say is not the rule of our faith. ONLY the Bible explains itself. And the Bible is clear that this is about the preached Word of God:

"for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
For, "ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS, AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS. THE GRASS WITHERS, AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,
BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you." ( 1 Peter 1:23-25 )

The text couldn't be clearer than this.

I'm starting to think you've never had an experience with Yeshua outside of the Bible. I guess your faith would be destroyed if all of the Bibles were gathered up all across the world and burned-up? When Paul brought the Good News to the Gentiles did his words mean nothing to them until he put them in letters? The 'Word of God' lives and is true regardless of the Bible in my estimation.

Your estimation is not the rule of our faith.

Try to burn all the Bible copies, and you will CERTAINLY fail.

Do you see the certainties in my words?

Those who heard the words of Paul already HAD the written Word of God with them. You will be noble-minded if you follow the example of these:

"Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures dailyto see whether these things were so.
Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men." ( Acts 17:11-12 )

And you as well Brother! It is a shame that we have much to share with each other and are limited to this type of communication. If you ever make it down to the Austin/San Antonio area and want to share thoughts over a cup of coffee...let me know.

Hugs,
CC

The Gospel is not to be a joke over a cup of coffee, but is to be preached to ALL men, without any exception.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†

 

[chingchang]

Wow!

And yet you are not sure whether you are saved or not. So you have not built any assurance yet.

I'll bite. So...lets just say that I'm not entirely sure...most days I am...but some days I question. However...EVERY day I'd take a bullet in the head for Yeshua and not think twice about it. That either means I don't care about my life or I am pretty-darn sure. Take your pick. I'm not too concerned about your perceptions of my assurance.

I have to exercise faith in what you say? Or in what GOD says?

I never said you have to exercise faith in what I've told you. I'm telling you that in order to BELIEVE what I'm telling you regarding my vision you would HAVE TO exercise faith.

How can I know for sure that you are not lying?

You can't be...I guess because what I'm telling you doesn't appear in your inerrant Bible.

Prove it. Did you ever go to Heaven?

I can't prove it. And yes...I believe it was Heaven...or the "eternal plane".

How can I know if I have the Spirit?

How can I be sure I have the Spirit?

Do you have the Spirit? Then tell me how you are sure that you have Him.

It doesn't matter what I say...you won't believe it. I can't prove it. Apparently my testimonies won't prove it and I can't be sure the change that has taken place in my life is 'good'...according to you.

Once again: How can I first be sure that what I have is the Spirit of God and not another spirit?

Probably because you read and understand the inerrant Bible better than anyone else...that is how you know that you have the Spirit of God and we all have the Spirit of our Father...the Devil.

How can I know if I am an elect?

I'm sure it will be confirmed for you with absolute certainty at a future date when your name either does...or does not appear in the Book of Life.

Are you an elect? How do you know that?

Yes. Interfacing with you in this forum has confirmed that for me. Thank you!

No, I am telling you what the Bible says, while you are telling me what your feelings and experiences are.

Which version of the Bible? BTW...I've studied most of the English translations...and I know what they say. The issue here isn't what they say...it is our exegesis which is based on our understanding of what the Bible actually is.

Quote any Bible passage as evidence for all what you are saying.

Paul never said that we should work out our faith...

Phillipians 2:12-13
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

You are right. He didn't say "work out our faith"...he said "work out your salvation".

In brief, you don't have any assurance concerning Salvation. So I invite you to build your faith on the rock of the Word instead of the sand of your feelings, so that you may really have the Salvation of the Lord and be SURE of it.

Wow! Maybe we're not Brothers...

And your beliefs are not the rule of our faith. ONLY the Word of God is the rule of our faith.

Relegion of the Book...

N.B.: God says that the Holy Spirit is the real Author of the Bible. Do you think that the Holy Spirit is a human?

I recall Paul saying that...not God. The Holy Spirit lives in me...just like Paul...who WAS NOT GOD.

This is irrelevant to the fact that the Word of God is very clear and very right, without ANY error in it, because God cannot do errors.

That is a religious matra for those that find it too much effort to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Relationships are hard work!

How did you conclude that from what I said?? You see how a bad tool is the human mind to understand God's Word?

I praise God for his craftsmanship! He made our minds and he gave us his Spirit!

What I said means that ONLY those who are saved are drawn by the Father, although Salvation is available to everyone.

That is what I believed for a long time as well. I don't want to debate that doctrine. I will say...with absolutely certainty...that in order for the doctrine to be right (truth)...then salvation is NOT available to everyone. Because...as you said...only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. If I offered a hamburger to a tree...my guess is that the tree wouldn't eat it.

The Word of God is truth. And I am telling you what the Word of God says.

You should be a preacher...we don't have enough. Are you a Prophet?

Your respect or disrespect for it, and your agreement or disagreement with it is irrelevant as to it being the only truth. Whether a blind agrees there are stars in heaven or he doesn't is irrelevant to the fact that there are stars in heaven.

Relativism? I didn't think you were a relativist? This is getting too easy...I hope someone is getting a chuckle. Laughter is good.

Sarcasm will only do harm to you.

Yes sir!

It's really bad from you to talk in such confident words when you don't even have the assurance of Salvation.

Bad as in good...or bad as in bad?

As I told you before, sarcasm will hurt you. So be careful.

Thanks for your concern.

I repeated it again and again that I am NOT saying you are not saved. I clearly explained to you that I am continuing the argument about the Scripture. So don't be hypocrite, and don't make it look like I didn't explain this point.

Of course you're not saying that I'm not saved...because only God knows...unless you have secret access to the Book of Life. Hypocrite? Yeshua called the Pharisees 'hypocrites'. We'll let the reader decide who is closer to being a modern-day Pharisee.

If you don't have an answer to my comment that the lack of saving faith makes you turn round and round in circular thinking, then don't embarrass yourself with light sarcasm.

Would you prefer heavy sarcasm?

By the way, you seem to be ignorant about the fact that Jesus Christ has only ONE Church on this earth, and that there is only ONE baptism...

I appologize for 'seeming' ignorant of that fact. Thanks for telling me though.

I am a sinner just like you. And I am insisting that what God says is the only truth. Without His Light we walk in TOTAL darkness.

I actually completely agree with this statement above. Our main difference is that you think God authored the English translation of the Bible that you claim is inerrant...whereas I do not.

1. I never said that the Bible is God. I am saying that the Bible is the Word of God.

You didn't come out and say that...but your thinking relayed through your writting strongly suggests that.

2. Wikipedia is not the rule of our faith. The Word of God is.

You are hillarious!

No, I am totally serious, while it is YOU who are turning to sarcasm.

Wait...you weren't joking when you said 'Wikipedia is not the rule of our faith."? I like you...I think we could enjoy some good laughter over a cup of coffee.

Didn't find any. Go ahead, and meet the challenge instead of running.

Be careful not to lie...that is a trademark of the enemy.

Boasting about your imperfect studies doesn't impress the children of God. Go ahead, and meet the challenge.

The challenge has already been met by many people...and many times over. If someone tells you that the Golden Gate Bridge is in San Franciso, CA and you chose to believe otherwise...that is your choice. If you have to see it for yourself to believe that the bridge is really there...then you'll have to go see it. Seek.

So you fail to meet the challenge. So the Bible doesn't contain any contradiction, and your accusation was purely an accusation without any basis or evidence.

Well...it is settled then. You are right. Carry on.

You don't know what biblical inerrancy is, so don't try to look wise by telling us that you used to believe it. It is clear of what you say here that you never knew what biblical inerrancy is.

You ought to tell me...all-knowing one.

We DO have ALL what the original manuscripts contained. Prove me wrong, or else don't just throw words.

We have copies of copies...of copies of the original manuscripts. You are showing your ignorance of this topic for everyone to see now. That is o.k. though. I too...was there at one point. Let me give a small nugget...and if you're curious you'll seek further. The authorized King James NT was translated into English from a series of Latin text called the "Textus Receptus". The Textus Receptus came from many older Greek documents...which were all copies...if not copies of copies of copies (not the originals that the Apostles authored). There were literally thousands of textual variants (mostly innocent copying errors) among the Greek documents that were compiled to create the Textus Receptus. Some of the variants were not so innocent and this can be proved. The field of Textual Criticism is important to producing text which is closest to the original documents as possible. Obviously this is vitally important to getting our doctrine right...but our faith survives none-the-less.

While the Lord says the Bible is the written Word of God. You disagree with the One you call "Lord, Lord!" ...

Will I be weeping and nashing my teeth?

Your estimation is not the rule of our faith.

Thanks for that clarification.

Try to burn all the Bible copies, and you will CERTAINLY fail.

I agree.

Do you see the certainties in my words?

A fool is certain of many things...

Those who heard the words of Paul already HAD the written Word of God with them. You will be noble-minded if you follow the example of these:

"Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures dailyto see whether these things were so.
Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men." ( Acts 17:11-12 )

The NT didn't exist at that time...'the Scriptures' were likely the Torah. Oh...do you know what literacy rates were back then?

The Gospel is not to be a joke over a cup of coffee, but is to be preached to ALL men, without any exception.

If we met for coffee...and talked about these various issues there would be no joking. I'm serious as well. My sarcasm is used to point out the utter absurdity of some of your claims/statements. I'm sure I would be in the position of learner though...since you seem to already know everything.

Be in Peace!

Thanks. I am.
CC

 

[chingchang]

YAQUBOS†,

You do realize this is the UNorthodox forum....

CC

 

[YAQUBOS]

I'll bite. So...lets just say that I'm not entirely sure...most days I am...but some days I question. However...EVERY day I'd take a bullet in the head for Yeshua and not think twice about it. That either means I don't care about my life or I am pretty-darn sure. Take your pick. I'm not too concerned about your perceptions of my assurance.

Any person in any islamic terrorist group would take a bullet in his head for Allah... And yet Muslims do not have the assurance of Salvation.

As you don't have the assurance of Salvation, and as your perceptions and experiences are not being helpful to make even you have the assurance of Salvation, then they can't be the basis on which other sinners can build their assurance.

So let's go back to the Scripture.

I never said you have to exercise faith in what I've told you. I'm telling you that in order to BELIEVE what I'm telling you regarding my vision you would HAVE TO exercise faith.

In what? All what you present to me is YOUR words.

You can't be...I guess because what I'm telling you doesn't appear in your inerrant Bible.

OK. Thank you for admitting that you don't agree with God.

Then sorry, I can't believe your lies, because the Word of God is the truth.

I can't prove it. And yes...I believe it was Heaven...or the "eternal plane".

Well, it seems that you see beautiful dreams... And yet, we can't build a so important thing as our Salvation on your dreams.

How can I be sure I have the Spirit?

So you are not sure. Then we can't build our assurance on your guesses.

Let's go back to the Word of God.

It doesn't matter what I say...you won't believe it.

Why are you judging me. Do not judge.

I can't prove it. Apparently my testimonies won't prove it and I can't be sure the change that has taken place in my life is 'good'...according to you.

I never said that you can't be sure that this change is good. I only asked you to prove it or to tell us how you are sure. And you failed.

Thus my argument showed the importance to go back to the only rule of our faith: The Word of God. All of your dreams and experiences are sand on which we can't build our assurances and certainties.

Probably because you read and understand the inerrant Bible better than anyone else...that is how you know that you have the Spirit of God and we all have the Spirit of our Father...the Devil.

I told you: Sarcasm will hurt you.

So you can't be sure that what you have is the Spirit of God, and not another spirit. Then how can I believe you when you speak about baptism?

I'm sure it will be confirmed for you with absolute certainty at a future date when your name either does...or does not appear in the Book of Life.

So you don't know it now. Point.

Yes. Interfacing with you in this forum has confirmed that for me. Thank you!

How did interfacing with me confirm that for you? Elaborate.

And stop sarcasm, because that will embarrass you at the end. I am very serious.

Which version of the Bible?

The ONLY Bible that exists. And I am not talking about versions; I am talking about the Bible.

BTW...I've studied most of the English translations...and I know what they say. The issue here isn't what they say...it is our exegesis which is based on our understanding of what the Bible actually is.

ONLY the Bible interprets the Bible, and not you or me.

Phillipians 2:12-13
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

You are right. He didn't say "work out our faith"...he said "work out your salvation".

So thank you for admitting that you made a big mistake when you said that Paul taught us to work out our faith.

And as I said before, you can't work out your Salvation if you don't first have it for sure. As you see in the passage that you quoted yourself, it is GOD who works IN us to will AND to act according to His good purpose. So you first need to have that Salvation in order to work it out by God's Grace.

Wow! Maybe we're not Brothers...

Again a word of uncertainty: "maybe".

Relegion of the Book...

No, Jesus LIVES. He's not a book. His Word is living and powerful.

I recall Paul saying that...not God. The Holy Spirit lives in me...just like Paul...who WAS NOT GOD.

And you don't recall that Jesus also said it, and He is God?

And you forget that the Holy Spirit said it on the mouth of the Apostle Peter, and He is God?

That is a religious matra for those that find it too much effort to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Relationships are hard work!

Off topic.

I praise God for his craftsmanship! He made our minds and he gave us his Spirit!

You forgot the Fall.

That is what I believed for a long time as well. I don't want to debate that doctrine. I will say...with absolutely certainty...that in order for the doctrine to be right (truth)...then salvation is NOT available to everyone. Because...as you said...only those who are drawn by the Father are saved. If I offered a hamburger to a tree...my guess is that the tree wouldn't eat it.

Just look at what you said and how it is so far from what I said. I said ONLY those who ARE saved are drawn by the Father. You said: "only those who are drawn by the Father are saved."

Can you see the difference?

You should be a preacher...we don't have enough. Are you a Prophet?

Stop sarcasm and be serious.

Relativism? I didn't think you were a relativist? This is getting too easy...I hope someone is getting a chuckle. Laughter is good.

Yes, relativism is a lie. The truth doesn't depend of what you think or believe.

Of course you're not saying that I'm not saved...because only God knows...unless you have secret access to the Book of Life. Hypocrite? Yeshua called the Pharisees 'hypocrites'. We'll let the reader decide who is closer to being a modern-day Pharisee.

Jesus told us to KNOW them by their fruits.

I actually completely agree with this statement above. Our main difference is that you think God authored the English translation of the Bible that you claim is inerrant...whereas I do not.

I NEVER said this.

You didn't come out and say that...but your thinking relayed through your writting strongly suggests that.

Assumptions.

So we go back to what God says in His Word, the Bible.

Be careful not to lie...that is a trademark of the enemy.

You still insist on assuming things and never meeting the challenge. That says much about your doctrines...

The challenge has already been met by many people...and many times over. If someone tells you that the Golden Gate Bridge is in San Franciso, CA and you chose to believe otherwise...that is your choice. If you have to see it for yourself to believe that the bridge is really there...then you'll have to go see it. Seek.

No contradictions found. So go ahead and meet the challenge.

You ought to tell me...all-knowing one.

Your sarcasm even led you to blasphemy!!! ONLY God is Omniscient. And I am telling you what the Omniscient God says in His Word, the Bible.

We have copies of copies...of copies of the original manuscripts. You are showing your ignorance of this topic for everyone to see now. That is o.k. though. I too...was there at one point. Let me give a small nugget...and if you're curious you'll seek further. The authorized King James NT was translated into English from a series of Latin text called the "Textus Receptus". The Textus Receptus came from many older Greek documents...which were all copies...if not copies of copies of copies (not the originals that the Apostles authored). There were literally thousands of textual variants (mostly innocent copying errors) among the Greek documents that were compiled to create the Textus Receptus. Some of the variants were not so innocent and this can be proved. The field of Textual Criticism is important to producing text which is closest to the original documents as possible. Obviously this is vitally important to getting our doctrine right...but our faith survives none-the-less.

And yet we have ALL what the original manuscripts contained. You are only talking about a version, the King James Version. I am talking about the Bible. Prove that we don't have the WHOLE of what the Bible said originally when the men of God wrote it.

The NT didn't exist at that time...'the Scriptures' were likely the Torah. Oh...do you know what literacy rates were back then?

So the Scriptures existed. Point.

Thanks. I am.
CC

You can't even receive the Peace that the children of God give you?

"Whatever house you enter, first say, 'Peace be to this house.'
"If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you." ( Luke 10:5-6 )

So you have it? OK, then you return it to me...

Grace be with you!

YAQUBOS†

 

[YAQUBOS]

YAQUBOS†,

You do realize this is the UNorthodox forum....

CC

Yes, and I am not ashamed to preach the orthodox doctrine of Salvation everywhere, because the true Gospel is the power of God for Salvation to EVERYONE who believes, whether he was orthodox or unorthodox before he heard the Gospel:

"I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish." ( Romans 1:14 )

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."" ( Romans 1:16-17 )

I remind you that the UNorthodox forum is made for the following purpose: "A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity."

So I am discussing and debating the UNorthodox doctrines, and showing how wrong they are. And at the same time I am preaching the true Gospel, the true doctrine of Salvation.

Grace to you!

YAQUBOS†

 

[chingchang]

Yes, and I am not ashamed to preach the orthodox doctrine of Salvation everywhere, because the true Gospel is the power of God for Salvation to EVERYONE who believes, whether he was orthodox or unorthodox before he heard the Gospel:

By definition...wouldn't someone have to be unorthodox in their Christian beliefs 'before he heard the Gospel'? Was Jesus orthodox? "Yeah, but...."

"I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish." ( Romans 1:14 )

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."" ( Romans 1:16-17 )

Praise God for Paul. Are you Paul? He...like John the Baptist was on a specific mission given to him by God. Has God given you the same mission as Paul?

I remind you that the UNorthodox forum is made for the following purpose: "A forum to discuss/debate theological doctrines not accepted by mainstream evangelical Christianity."

You definitely are not "ashamed". "Were here...we're ***** !"

So I am discussing and debating the UNorthodox doctrines, and showing how wrong they are. And at the same time I am preaching the true Gospel, the true doctrine of Salvation.

In your opinion...and everyone has one. I guess your opinion is better than everyone else's because your opinion is based on your exegesis of the inerrant 'Word of God'?

The OP question..."IS baptism necessary to be saved?". Your answer is "no"...my answer is "no". So...we agree.

If you want to start a new topic on Bible inerrancy or Bible Textual Criticism I'll be happy to jump-in with examples and meet your challenges. You'll see rather quickly what I mean by "round-and-round" we go...and no matter how hard you try to get me to fit into your orthodox box (which is an invention of man...classic religion)...you won't be able to. I used to be in that box and I've been liberated! The only law that rules me now is the "royal law".

Hugs,
CC

 

[YAQUBOS]

By definition...wouldn't someone have to be unorthodox in their Christian beliefs 'before he heard the Gospel'? Was Jesus orthodox? "Yeah, but...."

Jesus Himself is the Gospel.

Yes, there are people who are orthodox before they hear the Gospel, and yet not orthodox in their practice. Example: Many Jews:

"But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God,
and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law,
and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth,
you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal?
You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God?
For "THE NAME OF GOD IS BLASPHEMED AMONG THE GENTILES BECAUSE OF YOU," just as it is written.
For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision." ( Romans 2:17-25 )

In the same way, many Christians have the right doctrine and are orthodox, but have never accepted the Gospel yet.

Praise God for Paul. Are you Paul? He...like John the Baptist was on a specific mission given to him by God. Has God given you the same mission as Paul?

God gave me a similar mission as the one He gave to Paul: To be Christ's witness, a child of the living God. He told us not to be ashamed of Him and of His words.

In your opinion...and everyone has one. I guess your opinion is better than everyone else's because your opinion is based on your exegesis of the inerrant 'Word of God'?

You have failed to answer my arguments concerning the inerrant Word of God, and we went back to the Scripture. So no need to embarrass yourself with this kind of sarcasm.

The OP question..."IS baptism necessary to be saved?". Your answer is "no"...my answer is "no". So...we agree.

Yes. But WHY no? Is it because baptism is not important and that it has nothing to do with Salvation?

And is it not necessary for Salvation because YOU say so? Or because GOD says so?

If you want to start a new topic on Bible inerrancy or Bible Textual Criticism I'll be happy to jump-in with examples and meet your challenges.

Open a thread about it and invite me there. But until then, the challenge is not met, and so we go back to the Word of God to see what baptism is, and not to your dreams and experiences on which no one can build any assurance, as we have seen.

You'll see rather quickly what I mean by "round-and-round" we go...

Yes, if you lack saving faith, round-and-round you go. But if you believe God, then you have Peace.

and no matter how hard you try to get me to fit into your orthodox box (which is an invention of man...classic religion)...you won't be able to.

I am not trying to get you to fit in any box. I am telling you the truth and calling you to faith in the true Gospel of Grace.

I used to be in that box and I've been liberated! The only law that rules me now is the "royal law".

Hugs,
CC

What is the royal law?

N.B.: Answer this question without using any reference that is NOT inerrant and infallible.

Be in Peace!

YAQUBOS†