Originally Posted by - DRA -
I agree that Acts 2:38 teaches the necessity of both repentance and baptism in the name of Christ (i.e., by His authority). They are requirements "for the remission of sins." I understand this phrase is synonymous with being saved. In short, to be saved is to have your sins taken away, and vice-versa. If you differ, then please explain how they are separate concepts.
That's what I told you, DRA.
Salvation is itself the taking away of your sins, and baptism is part of that Salvation that you receive by faith alone.
Not sure where the idea that baptism is something received. In Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and Acts 22:16 it is commanded, just as is faith or belief in Acts 16:31, and repentance in Acts 2:38. Each is something we must obey.
Acts 2:38 is a part of the whole Bible. It was not said in a context that is not related to the rest of the Bible. Acts 2:38 teaches that, even if you are baptized but did not repent, then your baptism does not save you. So the real meaning of baptism is in repentance. After all, the Bible clearly tells you what baptism is: It is the death with Christ to walk in newness of life. In other words, this is what REPENTANCE is:
I never said nor implied that Acts 2:38 is a stand alone passage. However, I disagree that "the real meaning of baptism is in repentance." Repentance is a change or heart or mind. In Acts 2:38, it carries the idea of turning from the mindset of rejecting Jesus (note context - 2:23) and accepting Him as both Lord and Christ (2:36), and includes the idea of turning from sin in general. Baptism is based on faith in the working of God per Colossians 2:12-13. Note Hebrews 11:6. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Therefore, faith or belief is required with baptism (which is the idea expressed by Jesus in Mark 16:16). Like faith, I agree that baptism must be accompanied with repentance. I never said anything differently.
( Romans 6:3-4 )
So baptism is the external sign of repentant faith. If you don't have that repentance inside, then the outward sign is nothing. In other words, baptism is not necessary FOR Salvation. It is a necessary part of Salvation. As soon as you have a real repentant faith, then you have eternal life, just like the thief on the cross. And if you really received that Salvation, then you have received the real meaning of baptism, therefore no one can refuse the water of baptism for you if you are not yet baptized:
Not sure where/how the idea of "external sign" got involved in the discussion. Baptism is based on faith per Col. 2:12-13. Without it, the person only gets wet. However, with faith in the Lord, baptism is God's way of uniting a sinner with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection to die to sin, be freed from it, and become alive to God. That's the idea expressed in Romans 6:3-11.
If as you say, a person has eternal life at the point of "real repentant faith," then it goes back to my original question: Can a person inherit eternal life while still in their sins? Note carefully Acts 2:38. Repentance and baptism are connected by the word "and," a coordinating conjunction connecting two equal parts. Thus, if repentance is required to have one's sins taken away, then baptism is also required. You seem to be trying to separate repentance from baptism and trying to place the forgiveness of sins between the two in this passage. Also, note Acts 22:16. There's no indication there that Saul (i.e., the apostle Paul) had his sins forgiven before baptism. Quite the contrary. He is told to be baptized to wash away his sins. Your rationale has his sins being washed away before God's word says they were.
As for the thief on the cross, he lived and died under the law of Moses. It wasn't until after Jesus' death that His testament (i.e., will) went into effect per Hebrews 9:16-17. Borrowing from that thought, we can think of Peter's sermon in Acts 2 as the reading of Jesus' will.
( Acts 10:44-48 )
These people received Salvation even before they were baptized, because they had already received the meaning of baptism, i.e. REPENTANCE. And then they were baptized with water.
Disagree with your conclusion concerning Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. Note Peter's only conclusion in verse 47. His only conclusion was that the Jews couldn't forbid the Gentiles from being baptized as were the Jews. Therefore, Peter commanded the Gentiles to be baptized as were the Jews in Acts 2:38. You are trying to read things into the text that simply aren't there, specifically receiving the "meaning of baptism" is equivalent to actually being baptized.
Originally Posted by - DRA -
I disagree with the idea that salvation is by "faith ALONE." Take the passage under consideration in its context. In verse 36, the apostle Peter, under the direct guidance of the Holy Spirit, gave the conclusion to the message preached: Jesus is both Lord and Christ. Some of the Jews were convicted of their wrongdoing and asked what they should do (verse 37). Note Peter's response in verse 38. Did he say you can be saved by faith alone? Nope, but he told them what to do to have their sins taken away, which is another way of saying he told them what to do to be saved. Assuming they could have been saved by "faith ALONE," then Peter's response in verse 38 should have been, "You believe, therefore you are saved from your sins." Is that what Acts 2:38 says in your Bible?
Actually, when the Bible teaches Salvation by faith alone, people misunderstand it. They think "faith alone" means "dead faith alone". But in fact it is a living faith. When God works faith in you by His Holy Spirit, that means He gives you repentance and all what faith receives, i.e. Salvation. This Salvation is the Grace of God received by faith alone. This Grace gives you a new heart. This Grace, received by faith alone, makes you repent and get baptized.
Granted, the faith that God accepts is a living, active, and obedient faith per James 2:14-26. With that in mind, a command was given in Acts 2:38 for the Jews on Pentecost to have their sins taken away. Three thousand obeyed per verse 41. Therefore, who had that living, active, and obedient faith? The three thousand who obeyed the command of God, or those that didn't?
God's grace has been extended to all (Titus 2:11). However, all will not be saved per Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23. Some of the Jews in Acts 2 believed the message preached. It is implied or inferred by their response in verse 37. However, they weren't told just to have their sins taken away in verse 38, but to repent
and be baptized. Don't overlook the coordinating conjunction. Both repentance and baptism are required. Both were commanded.
As faith is born from the seed of the Word of God, so Peter had to tell them the truth of Salvation: repentance for the forgiveness of sins: ( Luke 24:46-47 )
Luke 24:46-47 is parallel with Mark 16:15-16 and Matthew 28:19. All are accounts of what is commonly called the Great Commission. As explained before, repentance typically means turning from sin (especially where the rejection of Christ and His crucifiction were concerned).
Notice with me that, in this passage, our Lord didn't say "repentance and baptism for forgiveness of sins". He only mentioned repentance, because, as I told you, baptism is closely related to repentance as it is the sign of that repentance.
Did you forget your previous comments about Acts 2:38 and how it is not a stand alone passage nor unrelated to other Scriptures? The same principle is also true for Luke's account of the Great Commission. You seem to have forgotten a basic principle of Bible interpretation: an understanding derived from one passage or text of Scripture must harmonize with other passages/texts (see Matthew 4:5-7), assuming that one truly desires to discern truth.
Now, if Peter didn't tell those people that they should repent and get baptized, then in what would they believe? In which proclamation? On what would their faith be built?
Oh ... but Peter did in Acts 2:38.
You can't receive the real meaning of baptism without faith. This faith is a repentant faith; that's its nature. You don't baptize all humans. You baptize those who have faith. So baptism also is received by faith alone. Saying that Salvation is by baptism ( which is another way to say that baptism is necessary for Salvation ) is like saying that you receive the real meaning of baptism by being baptized, which is wrong. Many are baptized, but not all are saved. We have clear examples in the Bible.
I agree that baptism must be accompanied with belief and repentance, but would also suggest not overlooking the necessity of confessing Jesus per Matthew 10:32-33 and Acts 8:37.
You keep trying to characterize baptism as something received. The Scriptures are clear that it is a command (e.g., Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, Acts 22:16). Why not just describe it the way God's word does?
So, in brief, Peter didn't tell those people to DO something to be saved. He told them to RECEIVE the Grace of God to be saved. And baptism is part of that Grace.
Acts 2:38 (NKJV) says: "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins ...' ". This passage is a direct statement or command. Three thousand obeyed what they were told to do according to verse 41. Do you actually think they didn't do anything? Unless I'm mistaken, those that
didn't receive the word were the ones that didn't do anything. One of us has the story backward.
Originally Posted by - DRA -
Let's note the context of Romans 6: "3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Obviously, what is described here results in a new birth, synonymous with "newness of life." The process is explained more thoroughly in the verse that follow.
Did you notice how the passage begins?
Let me underline what you need to notice:
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" ( Romans 6:3 )
And as you quoted it:
Originally Posted by - DRA -
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
How many of them were baptized with water? Actually, ALL Christians are baptized. But how many of them are REALLY baptized INTO CHRIST JESUS? Only those who have real repentant faith. So the new birth happens by faith. It is not something you do. It is the Grace of God that you RECEIVE by faith alone.
Bottom line, according to Romans 6:3-11, the new birth occurs during baptism. And, since baptism is a command that must be obeyed to please God, then I suggest giving some additional thought to your reasoning. Note the first action required in Acts 22:16: "arise." It involves action or doing something. Three thousand did it in Acts 2. Cornelius and his household did it in Acts 10. And, Saul did it in Acts 22. The concept is not hard to understand.
Originally Posted by - DRA -
Granted. Baptism is based on faith ... faith in the working of God per Colossians 2:12-13. Without faith, one only gets wet. However, with faith, accompanied with repentance per Acts 2:38 and confession per Romans 10:9-10 & Acts 8:37, the blessing described in Romans 6 occur DURING baptism - NOT BEFORE.
No, that's not what Romans 6 is saying. Romans 6 is not talking about the TIME of baptism. It is talking about the MEANING of baptism. And, yes, if you don't have the meaning of baptism in you by faith, then you are not saved, because baptism is necessary in Salvation. But it is not necessary FOR Salvation. Only the Grace of God is necessary for Salvation, and you receive that Grace by Faith alone.
Sorry, but I have to disagree. Timing is definitely under consideration in Romans 6. The Romans had been baptized. Therefore, they should not be continuing in sin according to verse 2. The apostle Paul reminds them of what occurred during baptism in the verses followed. Note verse 7. In baptism they were freed from sin. That means prior to baptism they were still in their sins, right? Give it some thought.
Not sure where this differentiation comes between "in Salvation" versus "FOR Salvation."
Your statement: "Only the Grace of God is necessary for Salvation, and you receive that Grace by Faith alone," can be captured by the old idea of "salvation by grace through faith alone," which clearly contradicts passages such as Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, and Romans 6:3-11
By the way, if you say that the blessing of Romans 6 occurs only DURING water baptism, then you contradict the fact that Cornelius and those who were with him really RECEIVED the Gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized with water.
I continue in the next reply, if the Lord wills.
YAQUBOS
There is NO contradiction between Peter's conclusion in Acts 10:47-48 and Romans 6:3-11.