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Is atheism Plain Rash? An argument Presented.

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JohnMartin

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist. To attain to the conclusion, atheism must first ask the question, ‘does God exist?’. By asking this question concerning the existence of God, the atheist must reduce God down to the level of a creature. An example will show why the reduction of God down to a creature is required.

Let us ask the question as follows - does a tree exist? By asking this question, we have reduced the existence of the tree down to a contingent thing, which may or may not exist. In doing so, we have also then reduced the existence, or the very being of the tree to being had by participation. By reducing the being of the tree to being had by participation we are then saying that – if the tree exists, the tree has existence. Or stated in another way, if the tree exists, the tree has being.

So again, for the atheist to ask the question, does God exist?, the being of God is consequently assumed to be like that of the tree, (or any other creature), as being which is had by participation. Put more simply, the question, does God exist?, infers God either has or has not being. If God does exist, then God has being, like a creature has being. If so, then the atheist must firstly assume that if God exists, then God is only a contingent thing, just as all creatures are contingent things. Once the contingency of God is assumed by the atheist, then the atheist may then proceed to produce an argument to then conclude to God does not exist.

The parallel examples of asking the two similar questions -

1) Does the tree exist?

2) Does God exist?

Both imply the tree and God may or may not exist, and thereby both the tree and God must be firstly considered to be contingent creatures.

So, what is the problem that makes atheism so rash? The question, ‘does God exist?’, when understood as shown above must ignore what God is – being itself. For God, which is the nature of being, is itself existence, is that only thing which must exist. So the question, does God exist, may be reformulated as follows –

Does that thing which is being [God], exist?

Or in another way,

Does that thing which must be [God], exist?

Or in another way,

Does that which is existence, [God], exist?

Or finally,

Does that which is being [God], be?

In short, when the question concerning the existence of God is correctly understood, the question is reducible to the principle of identity. For example, we may compare the question, does God exist, to that of the colour blue.

Does God exist?

Is equivalent to saying,

Does that which is existence, [God], exist?

Or more simply.

Does be, be?

Now we can compare the above question to that of the colour blue.

Is blue [be], blue[be]?

Or more simply,

Is be, be?

According to the atheist, the answer to the question, ‘Is blue, blue?’, is yes, in accord with the principle of identity. But when a parallel question, which is reducible down to the same principle of identity is asked, the atheist must conclude to the answer of, no. So, in summary,

Does God exist?

Which is the same as asking,

Does be, be?

Theism says yes.
Atheism say no.

Hence atheism is rash, as shown in the argument presented above.

JM
 
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keith99

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Typing if oversized bold font does not make an argument have any additional substance.

Few atheists claim to know that God does not exist, mainly we argue that the evidence is weak at best, your hand waving confirms that.

Once specific claims are made about any god it becomes possible to test those claims to some degree. Often the claims are vague and not very testable. Overall god does not fare well in such testing. Which still does not god does not exist, merely that those claiming things about god have no special knowledge of that which they claim special knowledge about. If mit exists of course.
 
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JohnMartin

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Typing if oversized bold font does not make an argument have any additional substance.

Few atheists claim to know that God does not exist, mainly we argue that the evidence is weak at best, your hand waving confirms that.

Once specific claims are made about any god it becomes possible to test those claims to some degree. Often the claims are vague and not very testable. Overall god does not fare well in such testing. Which still does not god does not exist, merely that those claiming things about god have no special knowledge of that which they claim special knowledge about. If mit exists of course.

Your response does not address the problem posed.

The font was changed at your observation.

JM
 
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Ana the Ist

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist. To attain to the conclusion, atheism must first ask the question, ‘does God exist?’. By asking this question concerning the existence of God, the atheist must reduce God down to the level of a creature. An example will show why the reduction of God down to a creature is required.

Let us ask the question as follows - does a tree exist? By asking this question, we have reduced the existence of the tree down to a contingent thing, which may or may not exist. In doing so, we have also then reduced the existence, or the very being of the tree to being had by participation. By reducing the being of the tree to being had by participation we are then saying that – if the tree exists, the tree has existence. Or stated in another way, if the tree exists, the tree has being.

So again, for the atheist to ask the question, does God exist?, the being of God is consequently assumed to be like that of the tree, (or any other creature), as being which is had by participation. Put more simply, the question, does God exist?, infers God either has or has not being. If God does exist, then God has being, like a creature has being. If so, then the atheist must firstly assume that if God exists, then God is only a contingent thing, just as all creatures are contingent things. Once the contingency of God is assumed by the atheist, then the atheist may then proceed to produce an argument to then conclude to God does not exist.

The parallel examples of asking the two similar questions -

1) Does the tree exist?

2) Does God exist?

Both imply the tree and God may or may not exist, and thereby both the tree and God must be firstly considered to be contingent creatures.

So, what is the problem that makes atheism so rash? The question, ‘does God exist?’, when understood as shown above must ignore what God is – being itself. For God, which is the nature of being, is itself existence, is that only thing which must exist. So the question, does God exist, may be reformulated as follows –

Does that thing which is being [God], exist?

Or in another way,

Does that thing which must be [God], exist?

Or in another way,

Does that which is existence, [God], exist?

Or finally,

Does that which is being [God], be?

In short, when the question concerning the existence of God is correctly understood, the question is reducible to the principle of identity. For example, we may compare the question, does God exist, to that of the colour blue.

Does God exist?

Is equivalent to saying,

Does that which is existence, [God], exist?

Or more simply.

Does be, be?

Now we can compare the above question to that of the colour blue.

Is blue [be], blue[be]?

Or more simply,

Is be, be?

According to the atheist, the answer to the question, ‘Is blue, blue?’, is yes, in accord with the principle of identity. But when a parallel question, which is reducible down to the same principle of identity is asked, the atheist must conclude to the answer of, no. So, in summary,

Does God exist?

Which is the same as asking,

Does be, be?

Theism says yes.
Atheism say no.

Hence atheism is rash, as shown in the argument presented above.

JM

I'm curious where you got this idea....since I've never seen this argument about "contingency" presented by any atheists. Why would you imagine that any atheists think this way?
 
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JohnMartin

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Atheists must consider God to be a contingent creature at some stage of their thinking, otherwise, they have no way of concluding God does not exist. If God is the necessary being, then God is not a creature. But the atheist must say God is the necessary being, who may not exist. Then argue to conclude that he does not exist. For example, Isn't God no Better than the Flying Spaghetti Monster? or a 'Special Computer'?

JM
 
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Ana the Ist

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Atheists must consider God to be a contingent creature at some stage of their thinking, otherwise, they have no way of concluding God does not exist. If God is the necessary being, then God is not a creature. But the atheist must say God is the necessary being, who may not exist. Then argue to conclude that he does not exist. For example, Isn't God no Better than the Flying Spaghetti Monster? or a 'Special Computer'?

JM

What is a "contingent creature?"

I hate to ask and disprove your whole theory about atheists...but I honestly have no idea what a "contingent creature" is.
 
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bhsmte

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Atheists must consider God to be a contingent creature at some stage of their thinking, otherwise, they have no way of concluding God does not exist. If God is the necessary being, then God is not a creature. But the atheist must say God is the necessary being, who may not exist. Then argue to conclude that he does not exist. For example, Isn't God no Better than the Flying Spaghetti Monster? or a 'Special Computer'?

JM

When I consider the existence of anything, I look for evidence to support whether this potential existence with well evidenced reality. In regards to a God, I don't see the evidence to support the existence. What I don't say; is a God does not exist. I say, I see no reason to believe a God exists.
 
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JohnMartin

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What is a "contingent creature?"

I hate to ask and disprove your whole theory about atheists...but I honestly have no idea what a "contingent creature" is.

A thing that exists but does not have to exist. A tree exists, but there was a time that it did not exist. Hence the tree does not have to exist. The tree is then not a necessary being, but only a contingent creature.

JM
 
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bhsmte

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A thing that exists but does not have to exist. A tree exists, but there was a time that it did not exist. Hence the tree does not have to exist. The tree is then not a necessary being, but only a contingent creature.

JM

And this helps the discussion how exactly?
 
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Ana the Ist

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A thing that exists but does not have to exist. A tree exists, but there was a time that it did not exist. Hence the tree does not have to exist. The tree is then not a necessary being, but only a contingent creature.

JM

Ok...then what does that have to do with such a thing existing or not existing?

What I mean is...regarding the tree...I couldn't care less if it's contingent. I simply want evidence that it actually exists.
 
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Gene2memE

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist.

No it doesn't.

Some atheists do. Some atheists don't.

My experience is that most atheist don't accept the claim that God exists, due to failure to satisfy their expectations of proof/evidence/probability, and ask you to substantiate your claim.

Please note, not accepting the statement "God exists", is not claiming "God does not exist"
 
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JohnMartin

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Ok...then what does that have to do with such a thing existing or not existing?

What I mean is...regarding the tree...I couldn't care less if it's contingent. I simply want evidence that it actually exists.
The tree as contingent exists ultimately because of the necessary being which causes the being of the tree. The necessary being is being, which is God.

JM
 
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ranunculus

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Atheism concludes that God does not exist.
Rejecting the claim that god exists is not the same as making the opposite claim that god doesn't exist.
Not believing claim A is true doesn't mean affirming claim A is false.
 
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keith99

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The tree as contingent exists ultimately because of the necessary being which causes the being of the tree. The necessary being is being, which is God.

JM

Ah there we have it. Your postulated being must exist and your entire argument rests on that hidden postulate.

No you cannot say God has to exist to prove it does exist.

Trees on the other hand do exist and they can be pointed to, rested under and climbed in.
 
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