Is astral projection moral? (from a christian perspective)

Spyr · Mar 1, 2005

Motus said:
Any action someone takes might have unintended consequences. Only if God does something, can one be secure in knowing it was perfect. Why not leave the work to the experts?

With that reasonning why should I do anything if there are experts out there to do it? If that ability to astral project is there why disregard it, waste it, simply because god can do it better?

More interesting to me however is the ramification astral projection has. If one acknowledges the existence of it (with devine help) then does that not lead to the idea that man can do far more than originally thought and that mayhaps we're stronger and more powerful than once beleived?

Ok, ok I'll shut because I'm going way off the trail.

hartmanpeter · Mar 1, 2005

Spyr said:
If one acknowledges the existence of it (with devine help) then does that not lead to the idea that man can do far more than originally thought and that mayhaps we're stronger and more powerful than once beleived?

I think Spyr raises an important point. If you can accept that astral projection is possible, shouldn't we remain open to the possibility that we are much more than we now believe?

Man has learned to push himself to the point of breaking previous physical and mental limitations. Why not excercise that same determination, that same curiosity in spiritual matters?

There is nothing created that is inherently good or evil. Lucifer is evidence enough of that. Not to say that there are such definitions as good and evil, but I digress.

In the beginning, you knew little about the spiritual. You allowed yourself to believe in god when others would scoff. You've demonstrated that you understand there is more to life than what is seen and you've placed faith in the unknown. A foolish person would believe they now know all there is to know about the spiritual, but you are not foolish.

Open your mind and heart and soul to the spiritual, as you once did, and you will be enriched with the knowledge that follows.

Spyr · Mar 3, 2005

hartmanpeter said:
In the beginning, you knew little about the spiritual. You allowed yourself to believe in god when others would scoff. You've demonstrated that you understand there is more to life than what is seen and you've placed faith in the unknown. A foolish person would believe they now know all there is to know about the spiritual, but you are not foolish.

Open your mind and heart and soul to the spiritual, as you once did, and you will be enriched with the knowledge that follows.

That's a good point. "A wise man knows that there is much he does not know", simply because one's faith in christ is complete doesn't mean they should abandon research and study in other fields.

Motus · Mar 3, 2005

Spyr said:
With that reasonning why should I do anything if there are experts out there to do it? If that ability to astral project is there why disregard it, waste it, simply because god can do it better?

That's like saying everyone can write symphonies, just because they have hands to hold the pen.

More interesting to me however is the ramification astral projection has. If one acknowledges the existence of it (with devine (sic) help) then does that not lead to the idea that man can do far more than originally thought and that mayhaps we're stronger and more powerful than once beleived?

Yes, one might be led to believe he is powerful....is that what you want? Power?

Spyr · Mar 4, 2005

Motus said:
That's like saying everyone can write symphonies, just because they have hands to hold the pen.

Astral Projection isn't like a symphony. Most, if not all, people can astral project with practice. Many would be hard-pressed to write a symphony.

Yes, one might be led to believe he is powerful....is that what you want? Power?

They wouldn't be led to believe, they would actually be. And no Power in itself isn't what I want. It's wisdom I prefer seeking.

CuteAlien · Mar 4, 2005

Spyr said:
Most, if not all, people can astral project with practice.

I tried, so i could get the million dollar from randi (http://www.randi.org/research/index.html) but so far i failed. Strangly enough all the people who seem to manage it are not interested in that price. It would be nice if someone else could win that challenge for me - if you don't want the million you can send the money to me. Tnx.

Motus · Mar 4, 2005

Spyr said:
Astral Projection isn't like a symphony. Most, if not all, people can astral project with practice. Many would be hard-pressed to write a symphony.

Actually, most if not all people have the capacity to draw markings on a page representing notes, and string a series of notes together on lines representing various instruments, and call it a symphony. The real question is, is it beneficial? Which is also the reason I think that even though people may have the ability to astral project, it is not beneficial to do so, and how would you know if it is?

They wouldn't be led to believe, they would actually be. And no Power in itself isn't what I want. It's wisdom I prefer seeking.

That sounds like something Lucifer would say.

The Noz · Mar 4, 2005

This discussion is moot. Astral projection is nothing more than a hallucination induced via biofeedback. Metaphysics is garbage. There is no solid evidence to support that anyone has ever had an 'out-of-body' experience. The closest thing to the mind leaving the body would be the removal of the brain, more commonly known as a lobotomy. Although few support the idea, the evidence for the brain being the vessel of the mind is well documented. Speaking in general terms, it stays there.

Also,

CuteAlien said:
I tried, so i could get the million dollar from randi ([omitted]) but so far i failed. Strangly enough all the people who seem to manage it are not interested in that price. It would be nice if someone else could win that challenge for me - if you don't want the million you can send the money to me. Tnx.

The reason for that is, simply put, that any applicants would immediately and invariably be revealed as long-term pathological liars. In summary: Astral Projection is B[dot]S.

truthinlove · Mar 5, 2005

Starcrystal said:
No. The first time it happened to me it was spontaneous. In fact it felt like hands were lifting me out of the bed and up towards the ceiling. I was yelling at them to "put me down" Then I rolled over and saw my own body lying on the bed and the shock of seeing that sent me snapping back into it with a jolt. That's when I didn't know what it was. I could say it scared me because I've read when you get scared you'll snap back. The ones I've had since then were either initiated by God, or when I became aware of them I knew it was in order to learn things so I was able to go much further. Much much further!

Could you project yourself to the Afghan border, find Bin Laden, and collect the 50 million dollar reward? That's what I would do

Truthnluv

Starcrystal · Mar 6, 2005

truthinlove said:
Could you project yourself to the Afghan border, find Bin Laden, and collect the 50 million dollar reward? That's what I would do

Truthnluv

If you were really good at it, but even if you could project to the place then you have to find the individual. Then what if he had a double that you thought was him but really wasn't? Saddam did that and he foiled quite a few people.
Also, it might be a waste of time if you were only going for the reward money. Even if you gave the military the right coordinates to capture him, who's going to believe how you got them? They might even think you were involved with him.
As I've discussed with a few people also: Bin Laden is a Muslim and Muslims have their mystics. Don't you think he (or his seers) are aware of astral projection & remote viewing? They probably have erected all kinds of spiritual and psychic shields, as well as decoys. The astral world can tend to be a cloudy one as far as our perceptions, plus anyone in that realm is subject to what God permits to happen there. I think those kind of people have a lot of shielding against the sort of thing you've suggested. It would be like running into a dark barrier, or else being misled somewhere away from the objective.

But it wouldn't be impossible though.

CuteAlien · Mar 6, 2005

Starcrystal said:
<snip> But it wouldn't be impossible though.

Ok Starcrystal, getting Bin Laden could be hard. But how about the randi-price i suggested above?

Electra · Mar 6, 2005

Now this is interesting.

Christians believe in soul, yet some dont believe in out of body experience...how intriguing.

hartmanpeter · Mar 7, 2005

Spyr said:

And no Power in itself isn't what I want. It's wisdom I prefer seeking.

Click to expand...

Motus said:
That sounds like something Lucifer would say.

Wow! Someone is search of wisdom is compared to Lucifer. I'm assuming wisdom is not high on you list of priorities.

Motus · Mar 8, 2005

hartmanpeter said:
Wow! Someone is search of wisdom is compared to Lucifer. I'm assuming wisdom is not high on you list of priorities.

Lucifer represents man's vain search for wisdom. In the Bible, Lucifer is sometimes signified as a serpent, which is why serpents are referred to as being wise. Since wisdom and power is only God's, because of his prideful quest for lofty greatness, he is condemned to slither on his belly.

And as I recall, the Bible says "the high places will be made low" and "whoever is first will be last"

hartmanpeter · Mar 9, 2005

Motus said:
Lucifer represents man's vain search for wisdom. In the Bible, Lucifer is sometimes signified as a serpent, which is why serpents are referred to as being wise. Since wisdom and power is only God's, because of his prideful quest for lofty greatness, he is condemned to slither on his belly.

And as I recall, the Bible says "the high places will be made low" and "whoever is first will be last"

Lucifer is not a representation of man's vain search for wisdom. Lucifer is not a symbol of anything about man. Lucifer is more likely a symbol for how God makes mistakes, but that's horribly unfounded so let's not get into that. And what's this about "vain search for wisdom"? Since when is searching for wisdom vain? Men have wisdom.

Acts 7:22 - And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
1 Corinthians 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
1 Corinthians 2:5 - That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Wisdom

Noun

1. Accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment.

2. The trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight.

3. Ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.

4. The quality of being prudent and sensible.

Wisdom and Power doesn't only belong to God.

Matthew 9:8 - But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Now if you want to argue the difference between our wisdom and God's wisdom or our power and God's power. Or even if you feel like arguing that it's only wisdom given by God or power given by God, don't bother. I agree. I just wanted it clear that pursuit of wisdom and power is not vain and would probably be one of the biggest reasons I would seek God out.

Spyr · Mar 9, 2005

hartmanpeter said:
Lucifer is not a representation of man's vain search for wisdom. Lucifer is not a symbol of anything about man. Lucifer is more likely a symbol for how God makes mistakes, but that's horribly unfounded so let's not go into that. A what this about "vain search for wisdom"? Since when is searching for wisdom vain? Men have wisdom.

Acts 7:22 - And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
1 Corinthians 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
1 Corinthians 2:5 - That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Wisdom

Noun

1. Accumulated knowledge or erudition or enlightenment.

2. The trait of utilizing knowledge and experience with common sense and insight.

3. Ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight.

4. The quality of being prudent and sensible.

Wisdom and Power doesn't only belong to God.

Matthew 9:8 - But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Now if you want to argue the difference between our wisdom and God's wisdom or our power and God's power. Or even if you feel like arguing that it's only wisdom given by God or power given by God, don't bother. I agree. I just wanted it clear that pursuit of wisdom and power is not vain and would probably be one of the biggest reasons I would seek God out.

Yeah, ditto!

Motus · Mar 16, 2005

hartmanpeter said:
Lucifer is not a representation of man's vain search for wisdom. Lucifer is not a symbol of anything about man. Lucifer is more likely a symbol for how God makes mistakes, but that's horribly unfounded so let's not go into that.

Apparently I comprehend a level of symbolism you simply don't, but that's okay. Remember that scriptures are to be understood on multiple levels.

A what this about "vain search for wisdom"? Since when is searching for wisdom vain? Men have wisdom.

Acts 7:22 - And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
1 Corinthians 2:4 - And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power.
1 Corinthians 2:5 - That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

You're writing as if you think the wisdom of men is something to cherish, then you quote me verses that say the opposite of that. Did you just look up wisdom in your concordance or something? The passage you gave from 1 Corinthians talks about NOT relying on man's wisdom but rather on the power of God.

Wisdom

Click to expand...

Noun

Please spare me the dictionary.

Wisdom and Power doesn't only belong to God.

Matthew 9:8 - But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

The key word which should be bolded there is "given," not "power." God gives men power, they don't take it. Seeking for something one can never take is vain.

What happens when we mere mortals are left to take things?

Mark 6:22-24
The king said to the girl, "Ask me for anything you want, and I'll give it to you." 23 And he promised her with an oath, "Whatever you ask I will give you, up to half my kingdom."
24 She went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?"
"The head of John the Baptist," she answered.
NIV

God knows people are greedy. As the old saying goes "Power corrupts."

You also seem to blur the distinction between power and wisdom. I assure you they are two different things. If you still don't know, use that dictionary you love.

hartmanpeter · Mar 18, 2005

Motus said:
Apparently I comprehend a level of symbolism you simply don't, but that's okay. Remember that scriptures are to be understood on multiple levels.

Ok.

Motus said:
You're writing as if you think the wisdom of men is something to cherish, then you quote me verses that say the opposite of that. Did you just look up wisdom in your concordance or something? The passage you gave from 1 Corinthians talks about NOT relying on man's wisdom but rather on the power of God.

Compared to the "wisdom of God", man's wisdom is miniscule. I'm not saying it can be compared to God's wisdom or even that it is a great wisdom (I'm not not saying it, but whatever). The passage in Corinthians doesn't talk about not relying on man's wisdom. It simply states that his words don't come from man but from God. It doesn't belittle man's wisdom. It implies that the knowledge he obtain was from God and not man.

Motus said:
Please spare me the dictionary.

Why?

Motus said:
The key word which should be bolded there is "given," not "power." God gives men power, they don't take it. Seeking for something one can never take is vain.

Seeking for something you cannot have is vain. Not being able to take something, doesn't mean the quest for it is vain. Power can be given to us by God. Therefore, seeking it is not vain.

Motus said:
What happens when we mere mortals are left to take things?

Mark 6:22-24
The king said to the girl, "Ask me for anything you want, and I'll give it to you." 23 And he promised her with an oath, "Whatever you ask I will give you, up to half my kingdom."
24 She went out and said to her mother, "What shall I ask for?"
"The head of John the Baptist," she answered.
NIV

God knows people are greedy. As the old saying goes "Power corrupts."

Not all people are greedy. And power doesn't corrupt everyone. Just because 1 person or a million people do fall into those categories, doesn't mean most people do.

Motus said:
You also seem to blur the distinction between power and wisdom. I assure you they are two different things. If you still don't know, use that dictionary you love.

I do know that power and wisdom are two different things. I didn't imply that they weren't.

*Starlight* · Mar 19, 2005

Teh Wiccan said:
Astral Projection, astral travel, Out Of Body Experiences,, it goes by many names. It has happened twice that I know of in the bible, Paul experienced it (2nd Corinthians 12:1 thru 4) and Moses did. Moses also experienced it, (passage unknown, i did see it once before.)

Astral travel is, in essence, when your spirit temporarily leaves your body and you travel into the physical or spirit world.

So is something like this alright, if it is mentioned in the bible?
(Under the assumpption it exists)

Hi!

I've never did astral projection, but I don't think there's anything immoral in it. The only difference between astral travelling and normal travelling is that if you travel astrally, you travel without your physical body. It doesn't harm anyone. But I can be wrong, because I've never had an OOBE...

Starcrystal · Mar 19, 2005

starlight_86 said:
Hi!

I've never did astral projection, but I don't think there's anything immoral in it. The only difference between astral travelling and normal travelling is that if you travel astrally, you travel without your physical body. It doesn't harm anyone. But I can be wrong, because I've never had an OOBE...

I won't enter the debate going on about power and wisdom.
But I will say that astral travelling is not "immoral" unless the individual uses it for immoral purposes. As with anything God makes, it can be corrupted by man. But it shouldn't be denounced simply because it isn't understood. Paul definitely referred to out of body experiences, even though he wasn't sure if it was astral or physical. (2 Cor. 12)
Astral travel doesn't harm anyone as you say. It only can become harmful if used to enter spiritual realms of darkness, or to do dark things, like spying, or for immoral purposes. If done, I do believe it should be done with the shield of faith. But I pray a shield of faith for physical travel as well.

Is astral projection moral? (from a christian perspective)

Is astral travel morally right?

I am christian, and I believe so.

I am christian, and I dont think it is right.

I have another religon and I believe it is fine.

I have a different religon and I dont think its right.

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