Is assurance of salvation possible?

[ExTiff]

What does that verse prove? It simply says that sinners were reconciled to God. There's nothing about falling away and coming back there.

What do you mean by 'falling away'? Falling away from what? If you mean 'falling away' from a literal fundamentalist interpretation of The Bible, then it is quite possible that you have fallen away from nothing worth attaining to in the first place. Christians could not fall away from any kind of interpretation of 'The Bible' for the first 300 years of the Church's existence. What they 'fell away from' if they actually did, was faith in the atoning power of Christ, whereby God no longer held their sins against them, and supplied such faith as was required to help them 'stand'. Rom.14:4.

 

[justbyfaith]

A person can think that they have fallen away when they really haven't. The devil is a liar.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Invalidusername, please look up Job 14:7-9, Psalms 31:22, Acts of the Apostles 27:20-22, Psalms 23:3, and Luke 1:37 (kjv).

 

[justbyfaith]

There is no verse that says, "As long as you're still alive there's hope."

Actually, it is implied in Genesis 6:3.

 

[Invalidusername]

You seem QUITE remorseful from where I'm sitting, dude .


Perhaps - but define 'fallen away'. What does that look like?


Untrue. You seem PRETTY convicted about both the doctrine of loss of salvation AND that you have lost it.

I know it appears that way.

 

[HatGuy]

I know it appears that way.

Sometimes you CAN judge a book by its cover .

 

[Invalidusername]

Sometimes you CAN judge a book by its cover .

Not in this case. My heart is hard as a stone. I can sin without the least bit remorse and I cannot stop sinning. I'm a condemned man and don't even feel bad about it. Everything I say and do here is intellectual but not from the heart. There is no truth left in me.

 

[HatGuy]

Not in this case. My heart is hard as a stone. I can sin without the least bit remorse and I cannot stop sinning. I'm a condemned man and don't even feel bad about it. Everything I say and do here is intellectual but not from the heart. There is no truth left in me.

A. A person who has truly fallen away would have no concept whatsoever of 'sin'. Sin is something the Holy Spirit tells us about. You wouldn't think of your 'sin' as 'sin'. Sin is not on the radar of someone who has fallen away.

B. You're expecting remorse to be a feeling. Why? You talk about being cold as as stone. Why? What have your emotions got to do with this?

Falling away is harder than you think. There are atheists who were once a Christian and they have dedicated their lives to destroying the faith. That's falling away. That's not you. The pharisees sinned against the Holy Spirit because they knew the truth and fought against it. You're not fighting against it, are you? If so, where? Not around here.

Ever wondered if God can remove your sin? You're so worried about how you're performing that you've lost sight of the fact that God is able to remove sin, not because you deserve it, but because he is full of grace.

Do you know what 'apostasy' means in Hebrews 6:6? It doesn't mean that sin has taken over. It means you actively renounce the faith and choose to have nothing to do with it.

Once again, I contend that you are not apostate. You are just depressed. You have just given up... but you haven't renounced the faith or gone to war against it. Depression sucks, but depression is not always emotional... it's often a state of numbness; a state of just letting your body rule over you because what's the use? It, and the devil, has won so many times, you might as well let it have free reign.

But that's not apostasy. That's depression. And God will never break a bruised reed. Neither life nor death, neither angels or demons, principalities nor powers, can separate you from God. Do you think sin can? Why is sin so powerful that God cannot break through it? Is sin some sort of kryptonite for God? Is he powerless against it? Is he unable to approach a human being with it and do something about it? Can the saviour who defeated death somehow not have the power to deal with sin, and to be with a person who is suffering under its powerful enslaving effects?

Jesus Christ is not so weak! What is sin to him? He pronounces forgiveness and pours out power just by the mere breath of his words. Why would he not reach in and destroy it? He can and he will. Just believe, and persist in believing, and see how even sin; how even cold hearts; how even ambivalence towards sin; how even depression and giving up; is no match for the One who has all authority in heaven and earth.

 

[Oldmantook]

I disagree with your assessment of Hebrews 6 but I respect your argument.

I countered your reply with my own. If you disagree, why?

There is two mistakes with that: habitual sin is not necessarily the cut off point when someone has fallen away. Sometimes Christians can fall into habitual sins and get convicted and struggle with it. As long as they are being convicted and urged by the Holy Spirit to stop the sin they are still saved. They only fall away when their conscience stops being prickled by their sins and they can sin without any inner resistance to it. This is evidence that the Holy Spirit has departed. Also the logic doesn't make any sense: if it is impossible to restore someone to repentance then he will never ever repent. Why would he repent if it's impossible to bring him around to his senses and the Holy Spirit is no longer convicting him?

Where or what is the scriptural basis for your opinion? Someone can be convicted of sinning but while they are still sinning, how can you claim they are still saved? Any scriptural basis for your unsupported opinion? I suggest you read Rom 8:13 as Paul's warning is very plain - IF you LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, you WILL DIE. It certainly does not say "if you are convicted aund urged by the Holy Spirit to stop the sin they are still saved." That is conjecture on your part. God is indeed patient but we should not presume upon his patience. I prefer to believe the words of Paul.
Regarding impossibility to repent. You totally misunderstand my point. I never wrote that it's impossible to repent. Repentance is only impossible because it is obvious that the person still sinning has not repented. One may have the desire to repent but that's inconsequential and of now use if one is still engaged in habitual sin. Repentance is not merely a change of mind but must be accompanied by deeds that demonstrate repentance at that is the gospel message that Paul himself preached- refer to Acts 26:20.

So I also disagree with your assessment of the prodigal son and etc. because parables are not necessarily literal. We all are prodigal sons. Every single one of us when we were unregenerate, we all were the prodigal son. Who were those who "needed no repentance" and who was the elder son? They were the pharisees and Jewish people that believed that they did not need God/Jesus. This is why God was more pleased with the prodigal son than the elder son. The elder son did not appreciate his father AND the elder son approved of splitting the inheritance with the prodigal son. "Why is it a big deal that the elder son approved of splitting the inheritance?" you may ask. Well in the Jewish culture, asking for your father's inheritance would be basically saying, "I wish you were dead and I want your stuff NOW." It was a severe form of rejection and the elder son participated in this. There are many nuances in that story that our culture would not understand and so thus that is one of the most widely misunderstood and misapplied scriptures ever. I am appalled by it to be honest.

Parables were Jesus' main vehicle for teaching spiritual truth so for you to discount them is quite telling. The notion that we were all prodigal sons when we were unsaved is a false assertion. You have continued to not explain how the prodigal was made alive again. An unsaved person is made alive in Christ the first time. He she is never made alive AGAIN as that can only apply to previously saved persons. Your lack of accounting for this undermines your whole argument.

The prodigal son DOES NOT go back out again and slop with the pigs. If he did his father would be done with him. There's no repeat prodigals. We are only prodigals ONCE.

Don't know where you got this from as I never claimed there are repeat prodigals. The prodigal was prodigal because he chose to depart from his father' house and squander his inheritance on sinful living.

Yes I did use a similar OSAS argument except OSAS people misapply it and say, "I believed in Jesus so NOW I'M FOREVER A SHEEP." What they don't understand is believing in Jesus is not the criteria for being a sheep... It's FOLLOWING Him. However the Bible does seem to indicate that if you are a sheep, you are a sheep. There's no conversion from goat to sheep and then back to goat. IF you fell away then you were always a goat to begin with. Does this mean you were never saved? Absolutely not but you did not remain to the end so you failed the trail of perseverance. "Whoever looks back while at the till does not deserve the kingdom of heaven."

There's no conversion from goat to sheep and then back to goat? Then one can never lose their salvation can they? Unless I'm missing something, you are contradicting yourself since you claim not to believe in OSAS.

The only criteria to be saved is to believe in Jesus and repent of your sins. HOWEVER it does not end there. That's where the OSAS people have it wrong. You must remain in that place and never waver from it. The devil will do anything in his power to deceive you, draw you in complacency, and make you fall off the narrow path.

No disagreement there except that in addition to Jn 3:16 which specifies believing, Heb 5:9 also specifies obeying as the criteria for eternal life.

I know you disagree with me with Hebrews 6 but think about WHY you disagree. Is it because you actually think your interpretation is correct or is it just because you don't like the idea of the fact it may be too late for some people? The bible indicates that DEATH IS NOT THE DETERMINING FACTOR of when it's too late. There is no verse that says, "As long as you're still alive there's hope." The determining factor is left to scripture and there is a too late in this life.

It is only too late IF you fail to repent. Repentance is a possibility as long as one is still alive but by no means a certainty. How can those in Heb 6 have repented when there very actions demonstrated that they have not repented. You have not explained this.

 

[Not David]

Not in this case. My heart is hard as a stone. I can sin without the least bit remorse and I cannot stop sinning. I'm a condemned man and don't even feel bad about it. Everything I say and do here is intellectual but not from the heart. There is no truth left in me.

I should recommend you to post about your problem in "Christian advice" because if you are not specific then nobody can help you with the sin that troubles you and yes it troubles you because otherwise you wouldn't care about it.

 

[Invalidusername]

I should recommend you to post about your problem in "Christian advice" because if you are not specific then nobody can help you with the sin that troubles you and yes it troubles you because otherwise you wouldn't care about it.

I apologize if I took over your thread. It was not my intention.

I countered your reply with my own. If you disagree, why?


Where or what is the scriptural basis for your opinion? Someone can be convicted of sinning but while they are still sinning, how can you claim they are still saved? Any scriptural basis for your unsupported opinion? I suggest you read Rom 8:13 as Paul's warning is very plain - IF you LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, you WILL DIE. It certainly does not say "if you are convicted aund urged by the Holy Spirit to stop the sin they are still saved." That is conjecture on your part. God is indeed patient but we should not presume upon his patience. I prefer to believe the words of Paul.
Regarding impossibility to repent. You totally misunderstand my point. I never wrote that it's impossible to repent. Repentance is only impossible because it is obvious that the person still sinning has not repented. One may have the desire to repent but that's inconsequential and of now use if one is still engaged in habitual sin. Repentance is not merely a change of mind but must be accompanied by deeds that demonstrate repentance at that is the gospel message that Paul himself preached- refer to Acts 26:20.


Parables were Jesus' main vehicle for teaching spiritual truth so for you to discount them is quite telling. The notion that we were all prodigal sons when we were unsaved is a false assertion. You have continued to not explain how the prodigal was made alive again. An unsaved person is made alive in Christ the first time. He she is never made alive AGAIN as that can only apply to previously saved persons. Your lack of accounting for this undermines your whole argument.


Don't know where you got this from as I never claimed there are repeat prodigals. The prodigal was prodigal because he chose to depart from his father' house and squander his inheritance on sinful living.


There's no conversion from goat to sheep and then back to goat? Then one can never lose their salvation can they? Unless I'm missing something, you are contradicting yourself since you claim not to believe in OSAS.


No disagreement there except that in addition to Jn 3:16 which specifies believing, Heb 5:9 also specifies obeying as the criteria for eternal life.


It is only too late IF you fail to repent. Repentance is a possibility as long as one is still alive but by no means a certainty. How can those in Heb 6 have repented when there very actions demonstrated that they have not repented. You have not explained this.

I think you misunderstood some of my points but I didn't explain them well. We can continue this on pm if you wish.

A. A person who has truly fallen away would have no concept whatsoever of 'sin'. Sin is something the Holy Spirit tells us about. You wouldn't think of your 'sin' as 'sin'. Sin is not on the radar of someone who has fallen away.

B. You're expecting remorse to be a feeling. Why? You talk about being cold as as stone. Why? What have your emotions got to do with this?

Falling away is harder than you think. There are atheists who were once a Christian and they have dedicated their lives to destroying the faith. That's falling away. That's not you. The pharisees sinned against the Holy Spirit because they knew the truth and fought against it. You're not fighting against it, are you? If so, where? Not around here.

Ever wondered if God can remove your sin? You're so worried about how you're performing that you've lost sight of the fact that God is able to remove sin, not because you deserve it, but because he is full of grace.

Do you know what 'apostasy' means in Hebrews 6:6? It doesn't mean that sin has taken over. It means you actively renounce the faith and choose to have nothing to do with it.

Once again, I contend that you are not apostate. You are just depressed. You have just given up... but you haven't renounced the faith or gone to war against it. Depression sucks, but depression is not always emotional... it's often a state of numbness; a state of just letting your body rule over you because what's the use? It, and the devil, has won so many times, you might as well let it have free reign.

But that's not apostasy. That's depression. And God will never break a bruised reed. Neither life nor death, neither angels or demons, principalities nor powers, can separate you from God. Do you think sin can? Why is sin so powerful that God cannot break through it? Is sin some sort of kryptonite for God? Is he powerless against it? Is he unable to approach a human being with it and do something about it? Can the saviour who defeated death somehow not have the power to deal with sin, and to be with a person who is suffering under its powerful enslaving effects?

Jesus Christ is not so weak! What is sin to him? He pronounces forgiveness and pours out power just by the mere breath of his words. Why would he not reach in and destroy it? He can and he will. Just believe, and persist in believing, and see how even sin; how even cold hearts; how even ambivalence towards sin; how even depression and giving up; is no match for the One who has all authority in heaven and earth.

I sinned for a long time and forgot I was even sinning.

 

[Not David]

I apologize if I took over your thread. It was not my intention.



I think you misunderstood some of my points but I didn't explain them well. We can continue this on pm if you wish.



I sinned for a long time and forgot I was even sinning.

I didn't say it in an aggressive manner, I just want to help but I don't know if this is the best place.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not in this case. My heart is hard as a stone. I can sin without the least bit remorse and I cannot stop sinning. I'm a condemned man and don't even feel bad about it. Everything I say and do here is intellectual but not from the heart. There is no truth left in me.

The fact that you understand that you are a sinner indicates to me that the truth is in you (1 John 1:8).

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If it isn't free, it isn't a gift.

A gift View attachment 244795 is something given willingly to someone without requiring a payment; a present. We can't buy what our Savior already purchased for us.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

View attachment 244796 View attachment 244797

The gift of God is eternal life.

Why did Jesus say literally, “count the COST?” Didn’t he know it was free?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Wages are earned; gifts are free.

Paul disciplined his body so that he would not be disqualified. Does that mean the reward he sought is earned or free?

God grants us repentance when He delivers us from the power of Satan!

And what about those He refuses to “grant repentance?” His fault they are lost, right?

Why do you ignore every proof of eternal security?

There aren’t any. To believe as you do one has to ignore Jesus’ warnings about many falling away FROM the faith they once had, ignore that while no one can snatch you, you can still leave.

doesn't start a work and then leave it unfinished.

If you refuse to be diligent and repeat but quench (put out) the Holy Spirit within, the work won’t be done.

2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

When everyone in the Bible preached repentance, none of them asked God to grant it. NONE

Do you acknowledge that in this verse, repentance or the “granting” of it depends ENTIRELY upon the actions of PEOPLE?? That is, Christians need to obey God, that is live as Jesus taught SO THAT God can act in the lives of unbelievers?? That’s what this verse says. Or do you edit out your part in God granting repentance theology?

 

[Invalidusername]

I didn't say it in an aggressive manner, I just want to help but I don't know if this is the best place.

I appreciate it. I didn't mean to bring the subject up and I am beyond help so I won't waste anyone's time.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why did Jesus say literally, “count the COST?” Didn’t he know it was free?

What He meant by that parable is that if we rely on our own resources, we will not be able to complete the work that we have started in beginning to follow Him. That salvation (righteousness) is a free gift is evident from Romans 5:15-19.

ignore that while no one can snatch you, you can still leave.

If the fear of the LORD is in you, you won't leave (Jeremiah 32:38-40).

repentance or the “granting” of it depends ENTIRELY upon the actions of PEOPLE??

No, people don't grant repentance to themselves. It is something that is given to them by God.

and I am beyond help

That is a lie from the devil that you have believed for some strange reason. Again, I say to you that Genesis 6:3 at the very least implies that as long as you have breath in you, there is still hope and you can still be helped. The Spirit will continue to strive with you as long as you are alive.

 

[justbyfaith]

Assurance of salvation is promised in John 5:24, John 6:47, John 10:27-30, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 28:20, etc.

You must lay hold of the promises in order for them to be yours, 2 Peter 1:3-4, Hebrews 11:33, 2 Corinthians 1:20, Romans 4:20-22.

When the apostles ministered to those who came to believe, it was with much assurance (1 Thessalonians 1:5).
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@Invalidusername, please look up Job 14:7-9, Psalms 31:22, Acts of the Apostles 27:20-22, Psalms 23:3, and Luke 1:37 (kjv).

I think you will see that all is not lost, even for you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What He meant by that parable is that if we rely on our own resources, we will not be able to complete the work that we have started in beginning to follow Him. That salvation (righteousness) is a free gift is evident from Romans 5:15-19.

This is how you negate the clear words of Jesus to count the cost even with examples. NOne of the example show people relying on themselves as something bad. It is actually the opposite. No where in any of the example of what he meant did he say the person counting the cost should rely on someone else. Your theology causes you to ignore the words and teaching of Jesus Himself. This is dangerous.

If the fear of the LORD is in you, you won't leave (Jeremiah 32:38-40).

OSAS means one does not have to have any fear at all and that is what I see in the posts of those who hold this teaching. No fear of GOd or fear of anything as the theology assure them fear is not necessary. They are in like flint.

No, people don't grant repentance to themselves. It is something that is given to them by God.

AH, as long as the Christians around them live godly lives. That is the price for God to grant the unbelievers repentance. You notice that? There are requirements for God to do this and it is your behaviour.

That is a lie from the devil that you have believed for some strange reason.

Nah, it is the truth as recorded in the BIble. I say again, assurance of salvation becuase of some act in the past is not there and no one preached assurance of salvation. That is a big lie of the Devil that has caused some believers to end up in hell. They were told they did not need to take care and did not.

Again, I say to you that Genesis 6:3 at the very least implies that as long as you have breath in you, there is still hope and you can still be helped. The Spirit will continue to strive with you as long as you are alive.

This is true but the day comes when you die and if you did not, you lost. God is long suffering but there is an end to this if one continues to quench and silence the holy spirit speaking to them. Sooner or leater GOd says to them "thy will be done" since they refuse to say to Him "thy will be done."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Untrue. You seem PRETTY convicted about both the doctrine of loss of salvation AND that you have lost it.

He realized that the doctrine about the loss of salvation is real and OSAS is a lie. He knows he has lost his relationship with the Lord that he once enjoyed. He has said so over and over again. He did not say he lost some theology. He lost his relationship with God. He believed OSAS and found out it is not true. God does not believe in OSAS and separated Himself from the man because of his sinful lifestyle that OSAS promised would not matter. It matters.