Is assurance of salvation possible?

[Dorothy Mae]

The answer does not come from what people think, but what the Word of God says.

Jesus taught us both the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

But first, we must establish WHEN a person actually possesses eternal life, which is not when they leave this life and enter eternity itself.

Jesus taught that "whoever believes has (present tense) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47.

The apostle John reiterated that same teaching in 1 John 5:11 and 13. Note particularly that in v.11 John says "has given us eternal life", so the argument about not having eternal life until eternity is refuted.

Now that the issue of WHEN one possesses eteranl life has been established, let's look at the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Notice that I have color coded the words, for ease in following my explanation.

The red words indicate the CAUSE of possessing eternal life, which is Jesus Christ himself. He is the One who gives the gift of eternal life.

The blue words indicate the EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which is to never perish.

Notice also that Jesus provided no conditions between the giving of eternal life and the result of having (effect) eternal life.

So, we could say that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Now, some will quote v.27 as a condition for never perishing; that is, the believer must "follow Him". But there is no language of either verse that legitimately allows for such an argument.

In fact, v.27 is simply a description of Jesus' sheep. It's what they DO. It's not HOW they become His sheep.

Jesus addressed how to become one of His sheep back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Jesus used a metaphor to indicate that saving faith in Him results in being saved, which also means having eternal life.

Jesus never spoke about cause and effect. Never. He spoke about relationship. He actually said eternal life is knowing God. To listen to you one would think eternal life is an effect that comes from something like pushing a button.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I ceased sinning but that is not repentance. Repentance is NOT just "change of mind" like many simplistic people say it is. Repentance is when you truly understand the evil you have done and from genuine sorrow turn from it. My repentance is entirely intellectual. There is no emotions behind it. I wish there were and I constantly try to force myself to feel sorry but I am unable to.

So you do not sin any more at all? Is that what all the people who live and work with you say? That you never sin? I find that hard to believe.

Also about your thing that "my words have no anointing". This is not something you actually know. Honestly you do not know for 100% if I have the Holy Spirit or not.

Anyone who has discernment knows this about someone else. YOu say you have no remorse whatsoever for the wrong you did to people. That tells me that the Holy Spirit is not within you as his job is to convict of sin. You say you have no sin. This also tells me the same thing. It is actually not that difficult if one reads enough of what the other writes. One cannot help but reveal the heart.

I would bring up the story about Paul and the believers who maliciously preached about Jesus in order to get Paul in trouble. Paul simply says:

"But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice," Phil 1:18

Paul knew what they were preaching. We have no idea what you say to unbelievers. SO far your words lay everything at God's doorstep. Does not sound like the Gospel to me.

So clearly God can even use people who preach Christ with false motives so why couldn't He use me? That's putting serious limitations on God.

As I say above, I have no idea if you are preaching the Gospel or not. So far you seem to say God will save you or not and it all depends upon Him.

Specifically 1 John says that if someone does a sin that leads to death(spiritual death) there is no reason to even pray for it. The person is done.

DId you do that?

I know we want to believe that God is truly merciful(and He is) but He is also a very harsh God. Eternal torment is harsh no matter how you want to twist it around.

This is why I question that you preach the gospel. You do not seem to know it. He is not harsh. But there are those who do not want him or the life he requires of us (loving God and man) and so where else are they to go except elsewhere and there is only one elsewhere.

Romans 11:22

" Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Severity is not harsh.

We tend to say "God is love" but that is a 100% false claim. God has love. God has wrath. Those are attributes that God possesses. He is NOT an attribute itself.

I agree. He is not love and love is not God.

However God is love in the sense that there is no love outside of God since only God Himself can provide us with true love.

No, atheists love too.

God has just as much wrath as He does love. God's love is beyond our comprehension but so also is His wrath. Unfortunately some people will be vessels of wrath in order for God to display His glory and some people will be vessels of mercy in order for God to display His grace and also glory.

Romans 9:21-23

"21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel 1for honorable use and another for common use?

22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,"

No one endures what they themselves made. God did not make those vessels but rather they made themselves and He endured what they made out of themselves. Now mainly he is talking about the Jews in that century. They made themselves freely into vessels of wrath which he, Jesus, endured until the time when God's wrath was poured out. They got what they had deserved. God merely endured them. He did not make them. He has that right. This is why I do not trust what you are telling unbelievers. Your picture of GOd is off and it is Calvinistic and therefore mean and low, your picture of God that is, not you.

I know you believe 100% free will from what I've read of your posts around this site but the reality is while we have free will, there is also God's sovereignty that comes into play.

He sets borders in his sovereignity. WHat we do within those limits are from our own free will. All of the writers of the Bible knew we have free will.

God could've prevented me from falling away.

God prevents no one from falling away. No one. That you blame God for you falling away shows that you have not repented, are not free of sin but resent Him not doing something you expect him to do.

It was entirely 100% in His power to do so but He didn't.

I know his ways and he does that for no one. None.

Same with Judas. God stops certain people from falling away(King David) and allows some others to continue in their sins(King Saul). Some of it depends on free will and some of it depends on God simply allowing it to happen.

It is always free will and God allows free will and the choices we make to happen.

God is all powerful and has complete control.

He only sets borders. He does not control us. THis is part of the problem. You blame GOd and not yourself. As long as you blame God, he will not change your situation. This is because if he would touch you, you would think He does it all and He does not. He told Cain that he, Cain, had to master sin. He never promised that he, God, would control the matter for Cain.

He does not exercise it completely but He certainly exercises it more than we give Him credit for.

He exercises it a lot less than men blame Him for....a lot less. I know his ways and they are not what you seem to think.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Believe for them was more than give mental agreement.
They actually joined the church and changed their ways.

Though they did take action, the meaning of "believe" doesn't include taking action.

To believe is to agree with something. To believe in something is to agree with something. Let's not twist the meaning of words to mean something else.

For the first century christians, believing meant a change in behaviour.

No it didn't. The meaning of the word has never changed.

For modern man it merely means giving mental agreement without any change in behaviour lest one be relying on "works" (heaven forbid!!)

Are you aware that the Bible commands believers to change their behavior? Why would that be?

Because salvation is through faith in Christ, and rewards are through obedience and faithfulness (change in behavior).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus never spoke about cause and effect. Never.

By that, I must assume you mean that He didn't use those specific words.

So, that is why I color coded my explanation of John 10:28.

So, since you seem to be in disagreement, please address my color coded explanation and PROVE that the red words do NOT state the CAUSE of possessing eternal life and then PROVE that the blue words do NOT state the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

Unless you can do that, your disagreement has no support from Scripture.

He spoke about relationship. He actually said eternal life is knowing God.

Of course. But are you disagreeing with John 5:24 and 6:47 where He specifically said that whoever believes possesses eternal life?

Or 1 John 5:11 and 13 where John said the same thing?

To listen to you one would think eternal life is an effect that comes from something like pushing a button.

This is silly. I've quoted and cited verses that actually SAY what I believe.

Can you provide any verse that very plainly tells us that salvation can be lost?

I know that cannot be done. All I've seen from over a decade of posting on these forums are verses that use metaphors, which are not to be taken literally.

John 10:28 is THE MOST CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD verse on eternal security in the Bible.

But, you are free to prove that my color coded explanation is incorrect.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Though they did take action, the meaning of "believe" doesn't include taking action.

Yes it does.

To believe is to agree with something. To believe in something is to agree with something. Let's not twist the meaning of words to mean something else.

If your actions do reflect that you believe, you don’t.

No it didn't. The meaning of the word has never changed.

If we look at the lives of those who believed, it shows it was quite different. Jesus said if we deny him, he’ll deny us. Doesn’t sound like merely agreeing mentally is the standard.

Are you aware that the Bible commands believers to change their behavior? Why would that be?

”If you love me you’ll keep my teaching.”

Because salvation is through faith in Christ, and rewards are through obedience and faithfulness (change in behavior).

Shaky ground. Jesus said many would say “Lord lord” thinking they’re saved but Jesus denys them entry. He didn’t say there are just no rewards.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

By that, I must assume you mean that He didn't use those specific words.

So, that is why I color coded my explanation of John 10:28.

So, since you seem to be in disagreement, please address my color coded explanation and PROVE that the red words do NOT state the CAUSE of possessing eternal life and then PROVE that the blue words do NOT state the EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

Eternal life is a gift which means it cannot be an effect. Gifts aren’t given from a cause having been initiated or finished.

Jesus actually said eternal life is knowing God. That’s not an effect. I actually think your view is insulting to God who said relationship is eternal life:

Unless you can do that, your disagreement has no support from Scripture.

I quoted to you what eternal life is.

Of course. But are you disagreeing with John 5:24 and 6:47 where He specifically said that whoever believes possesses eternal life?

Jesus said eternal life is knowing God, not something you possess whether God is involved or not.

Can you provide any verse that very plainly tells us that salvation can be lost?

”Many will fall away from the faith.” No faith= no salvation.

I know that cannot be done. All I've seen from over a decade of posting on these forums are verses that use metaphors, which are not to be taken literally.

Fall away from the faith is not a metaphor.

John 10:28 is THE MOST CLEAR AND STRAIGHTFORWARD verse on eternal security in the Bible.

Not at all. God promises no eternal security no matter what evil you do. You can jump out of his hand any time you want. This you ignore. You can turn back. You can stop believing amy time it gets tough.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes it does. If your actions do reflect that you believe, you don’t.

You have not shown from any lexicon that your "meaning" is the same meaning in the Greek.

If we look at the lives of those who believed, it shows it was quite different.

You didn't answer my question of WHY are believers commanded to obey and be faithful? Yet, none of the commands include anything about being saved. They are commanded to people already considered to be saved.

Jesus said if we deny him, he’ll deny us. Doesn’t sound like merely agreeing mentally is the standard.

Didn't you read the whole verse, for context?

2 Tim 2:12 - if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us;[/QUOTE]
OK, 2 conditional statements.

What is "enduring" but remaining faithful, right? And the result? To reign with Him. Doesn't say "to get or stay saved". So reigning with Christ is a reward for enduring.

Don't you realize that if "enduring" was required for salvation, then salvation would be by our own efforts. That is works salvation, not salvation by grace.

Now, in the SAME CONTEXT, the 2nd conditional statement is if we don't endure (which means to deny Him), we will be denied.

Does the verse say "denied salvation"? No, that is a forced assumption.

What will be denied for those who don't endure (deny Him) is to be denied the privilege of reigning with Him.

Unless you think I'm just making up this explanation, there is another verse that says basically the same thing.

And I'll color code my explanation of the verse, for ease of following my point.

Rom 8:17 - Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

The red words speak of our inheritance (entering heaven on the basis of being God's children. No further conditions mentioned.

The blue words speak of our inheritance (co-heirs with Christ) on the basis of sharing in His sufferings. This is the same as "enduring" in 2 Tim 2:12a.

The result of sharing in Christ's sufferings (enduring) is that we will share in His glory, which is just another way to refer to reigning with Him.

I was disappointed that you didn't engage my color coded explanation of John 10:28. Did you realize that you are unable to refute either point?

Hopefully, you will engage this color coded explanation of 2 Tim 2:12 in concert with Rom 8:17, since both are referring to the same thing.

But feel free to challenge my color coded explanation if you can.

”If you love me you’ll keep my teaching.”

True statement. But, do all believers actually keep all Jesus' teaching?

How would that be possible given the commands by Paul to stop grieving (Eph 4:30) and stop quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit? How is that keeping Jesus' teaching?

Shaky ground. Jesus said many would say “Lord lord” thinking they’re saved but Jesus denys them entry. He didn’t say there are just no rewards.

Correct. However, again, I must ask if you read the whole context?

So, here it is, color coded:
Matt 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The red words refer specifically to John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

iow, entering heaven is based on believing in Jesus Christ.

The blue words are the claims of a crowd on Judgment Day.

The green words are the specifics of their claims: prophesying and driviing out demons and performing miracles, all in Jesus' name.

The purple words show Jesus reply to them; He NEVER knew them.

Now, if any of this crowd had EVER believed in Him, how could He say He NEVER knew them? That would be a lie. So v.23 proves that no one in this crowd ever believed in Him, nor received the gift of eternal life.

What this passage shows is that religious people do a lot of things that look and sound "Christian", but they are doing them in the mistaken belief that they are pleasing God and earning salvation, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

I color code my explanations in order to make it very easy to respond to my posts and deal easily with my points.

I hope you will do that, since you seem to disagree with my position.

I want you to know that I don't want to be wrong any more than you do. So, if you are able to refute any of my points, I would appreciate it.

Wouldn't you want to know if your ideas were wrong?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Eternal life is a gift which means it cannot be an effect.

In spite of color coding my explanation, you still do not understand. I never said that eternal life is "an effect". What I said, and you missed, was that the possession of eternal life is the effect of Jesus giving the gift to believers.

As to never perishing, that is the effect of possessing eternal life.

Now, try again.

Gifts aren’t given from a cause having been initiated or finished.

I don't know what this means or refers to.

Jesus actually said eternal life is knowing God. That’s not an effect.

Why can't you just deal with John 10:28, where Jesus SAID He gives them (believers) eternal life? That's the issue here.

I actually think your view is insulting to God who said relationship is eternal life:
I quoted to you what eternal life is.

And you seem to want to ignore what Jesus said in John 10:28.

”Many will fall away from the faith.” No faith= no salvation.

This seems to suggest that if faith ceases, then one loses salvation.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Pet 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

The red words in both verses clearly state who will be condemned: those who NEVER BELIEVED.

So, if one loses faith, it cannot be said of them that they "never believed".

And your view is in direct opposition to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, the verse that you keep ignoring.

Fall away from the faith is not a metaphor.Not at all. God promises no eternal security no matter what evil you do.

Eternal security is promised by Jesus clearly, plainly and directly in John 10:28, the verse that you just don't want to deal with.

And I even color coded it for easy understanding of my points.

 

[Invalidusername]

So you do not sin any more at all? Is that what all the people who live and work with you say? That you never sin? I find that hard to believe.
Anyone who has discernment knows this about someone else. YOu say you have no remorse whatsoever for the wrong you did to people. That tells me that the Holy Spirit is not within you as his job is to convict of sin. You say you have no sin. This also tells me the same thing. It is actually not that difficult if one reads enough of what the other writes. One cannot help but reveal the heart.Paul knew what they were preaching. We have no idea what you say to unbelievers. SO far your words lay everything at God's doorstep. Does not sound like the Gospel to me.
As I say above, I have no idea if you are preaching the Gospel or not. So far you seem to say God will save you or not and it all depends upon Him.
DId you do that?
This is why I question that you preach the gospel. You do not seem to know it. He is not harsh. But there are those who do not want him or the life he requires of us (loving God and man) and so where else are they to go except elsewhere and there is only one elsewhere.
Severity is not harsh.
I agree. He is not love and love is not God.

No, atheists love too.
No one endures what they themselves made. God did not make those vessels but rather they made themselves and He endured what they made out of themselves. Now mainly he is talking about the Jews in that century. They made themselves freely into vessels of wrath which he, Jesus, endured until the time when God's wrath was poured out. They got what they had deserved. God merely endured them. He did not make them. He has that right. This is why I do not trust what you are telling unbelievers. Your picture of GOd is off and it is Calvinistic and therefore mean and low, your picture of God that is, not you.
He sets borders in his sovereignity. WHat we do within those limits are from our own free will. All of the writers of the Bible knew we have free will.
God prevents no one from falling away. No one. That you blame God for you falling away shows that you have not repented, are not free of sin but resent Him not doing something you expect him to do.
I know his ways and he does that for no one. None.
It is always free will and God allows free will and the choices we make to happen. He only sets borders. He does not control us. THis is part of the problem. You blame GOd and not yourself. As long as you blame God, he will not change your situation. This is because if he would touch you, you would think He does it all and He does not. He told Cain that he, Cain, had to master sin. He never promised that he, God, would control the matter for Cain.
He exercises it a lot less than men blame Him for....a lot less. I know his ways and they are not what you seem to think.

Are you dense? Obviously I still make mistakes and sin. But I'm not living in gross unrepentant sins. That's the point of being handed over to Satan for. Jeez you seem unable to understand things within context of a conversation.

Clearly you know what I'm saying to unbelievers. I'm telling them to worship Moloch and sacrifice their new born babies. Are you dense? I was once enlightened(Hebrews 6) and once you've been enlightened with the truth you never forget it. There's no being unenlightened. You know I'm telling them the correct gospel message but you're just being a difficult woman as you always are.

YES it is clearly the Holy Spirit's job to convict of sin. That's the first biblically correct statement I've ever heard you say. However you could argue that I'm being convicted on an intellectual basis and that is impossible without the Holy Spirit. You do not know for certain so swallow a humble pill.

Actually if anything YOU seem unable to understand the gospel message. You seem to think it's a mixture of good works and a vague faith in Jesus. This is why I suspect you've fallen from the faith as well.

 

[Invalidusername]

So you do not sin any more at all? Is that what all the people who live and work with you say? That you never sin? I find that hard to believe.
Anyone who has discernment knows this about someone else. YOu say you have no remorse whatsoever for the wrong you did to people. That tells me that the Holy Spirit is not within you as his job is to convict of sin. You say you have no sin. This also tells me the same thing. It is actually not that difficult if one reads enough of what the other writes. One cannot help but reveal the heart.Paul knew what they were preaching. We have no idea what you say to unbelievers. SO far your words lay everything at God's doorstep. Does not sound like the Gospel to me.
As I say above, I have no idea if you are preaching the Gospel or not. So far you seem to say God will save you or not and it all depends upon Him.
DId you do that?
This is why I question that you preach the gospel. You do not seem to know it. He is not harsh. But there are those who do not want him or the life he requires of us (loving God and man) and so where else are they to go except elsewhere and there is only one elsewhere.
Severity is not harsh.
I agree. He is not love and love is not God.

No, atheists love too.
No one endures what they themselves made. God did not make those vessels but rather they made themselves and He endured what they made out of themselves. Now mainly he is talking about the Jews in that century. They made themselves freely into vessels of wrath which he, Jesus, endured until the time when God's wrath was poured out. They got what they had deserved. God merely endured them. He did not make them. He has that right. This is why I do not trust what you are telling unbelievers. Your picture of GOd is off and it is Calvinistic and therefore mean and low, your picture of God that is, not you.
He sets borders in his sovereignity. WHat we do within those limits are from our own free will. All of the writers of the Bible knew we have free will.
God prevents no one from falling away. No one. That you blame God for you falling away shows that you have not repented, are not free of sin but resent Him not doing something you expect him to do.
I know his ways and he does that for no one. None.
It is always free will and God allows free will and the choices we make to happen. He only sets borders. He does not control us. THis is part of the problem. You blame GOd and not yourself. As long as you blame God, he will not change your situation. This is because if he would touch you, you would think He does it all and He does not. He told Cain that he, Cain, had to master sin. He never promised that he, God, would control the matter for Cain.
He exercises it a lot less than men blame Him for....a lot less. I know his ways and they are not what you seem to think.

Also you have provided ZERO scripture to support any of your arguments. Just a "I know God better than you."

Sorry to rain on your parade... but no you don't.

Provide one scripture that says you can be unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved

Oh what what's that? You cannot? Aww

 

[Eloy Craft]

Provide one scripture that says you can be unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved

There is sin that is deadly but can be forgiven. The Christians taught by the Apostles were not OSAS. If they were Peter sent Ananias and Sapphira to heaven and there would be no great fear experienced by the whole Church and beyond.


1 John 5:16
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Acts 5
How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!” 5 Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things.

 

[Invalidusername]

There is sin that is deadly but can be forgiven. The Christians taught by the Apostles were not OSAS. If they were Peter sent Ananias and Sapphira to heaven and there would be no great fear experienced by the whole Church and beyond.


1 John 5:16
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Acts 5
How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!” 5 Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things.

I'm not OSAS. I believe you can lose your salvation and once that has occurred you cannot get it back. Hebrews 6:4-6

You have not been reading ANY of my posts if you think I'm OSAS

 

[Eloy Craft]

Sorry about that brother.

The sin unto death in John 5-16 is unforgivable?

 

[Invalidusername]

Sorry about that brother.

The sin unto death in John 5-16 is unforgivable?

To be honest I don't know but I think so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm not OSAS. I believe you can lose your salvation and once that has occurred you cannot get it back. Hebrews 6:4-6

You have not been reading ANY of my posts if you think I'm OSAS

Well then, why did Jesus speak untruth in John 10:28?

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

So, if salvation can be lost, then one who used to have it WILL perish.

Hm. Believe Jesus, or believe IUN? I know Jesus is God and is therefore perfect, and while I don't know IUN, I know you aren't God, and therefore aren't perfect, I will stick with what Jesus said.

But everyone else is free to believe whatever they want to.

btw, Heb 6:4-6 isn't even close to referring to loss of salvation. It's about those who turn from grace back to the law will not repent.

And while I'm at it, 1 John 5:16 refers to God's discipline for believers who are going off the rails. He takes them home.

Paul included the sin unto death when he was chastising the Corinthians for their horrible actions during Communion in 1 Cor 11.

v.30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Do you see the sequence here? Weak, then sick, then death.

Sound like fun, anyone?

Ananias and Sapphire were made examples of in the early church. Yes, they did go to heaven, but not as a reward.

Oh, and speaking of reward, they got none there. For eternity.

Rev 22:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

2 Jn 8 - Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Bottom line: if salvation can be lost for any reason, Jesus lied in John 10:28 and He didn't die for every sin.

Chew on that.

 

[Invalidusername]

Well then, why did Jesus speak untruth in John 10:28?

"I give them eternal life and they shall never perish."

So, if salvation can be lost, then one who used to have it WILL perish.

Hm. Believe Jesus, or believe IUN? I know Jesus is God and is therefore perfect, and while I don't know IUN, I know you aren't God, and therefore aren't perfect, I will stick with what Jesus said.

But everyone else is free to believe whatever they want to.

btw, Heb 6:4-6 isn't even close to referring to loss of salvation. It's about those who turn from grace back to the law will not repent.

And while I'm at it, 1 John 5:16 refers to God's discipline for believers who are going off the rails. He takes them home.

Paul included the sin unto death when he was chastising the Corinthians for their horrible actions during Communion in 1 Cor 11.

v.30 - That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

Do you see the sequence here? Weak, then sick, then death.

Sound like fun, anyone?

Ananias and Sapphire were made examples of in the early church. Yes, they did go to heaven, but not as a reward.

Oh, and speaking of reward, they got none there. For eternity.

Rev 22:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

2 Jn 8 - Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

Bottom line: if salvation can be lost for any reason, Jesus lied in John 10:28 and He didn't die for every sin.

Chew on that.

The problem is you take a verse and don't apply it the way it is intended. I agree with you that when you are saved you do possess eternal life. That's a fact. You believe, receive the Holy Spirit, are reborn, and have an inheritance. However WHILE WE ARE IN THIS LIFE we always have free will. We can turn into sin and reject that gift.

John 15 about the vine makes it perfectly clear when He says that people are cut from the vine if they are not abiding in Christ. This means we must remain in the vine to be saved.

The sad thing is I was enlightened and had that new nature but gradually over time my heart grew hard and I began to love sin more than God. This is why Jude warns us to "remain in his love" and the Bible also states to "make sure of our election".

Christ did die for every sin that is forgivable. Did Christ die for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? Clearly He didn't since that sin is unforgivable. Did Christ die for people who commit the Hebrews 6 apostasy? Clearly not. Did Christ die for the sin of rejecting Christ? No He did not, otherwise universalism would be true.

We have eternal life and will never perish... As long as we remain in that state in this life.

 

[SeventyOne]

There is sin that is deadly but can be forgiven. The Christians taught by the Apostles were not OSAS. If they were Peter sent Ananias and Sapphira to heaven and there would be no great fear experienced by the whole Church and beyond.


1 John 5:16
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Acts 5
How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!” 5 Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things.

There's nothing in those passages to presume such people go to hell other than desire that was the case. Those people just witnessed Peter pronounce God's judgment on two people and saw them drop dead at his feet. A quick vindication of the Gospel message, the messengers, and a reminder that God isn't fooling around. Their response is understandable.

Could you imagine if God were to strike down everyone who had ever stood in a pulpit and uttered a lie? At some point, no one would ever set foot behind one again, even if there were a chance of slipping up.

In contrast, what you are teaching is that if a person even lies, they will go to hell. Forget the gospel, it's too fragile to help. What Jesus did wasn't sufficient enough to cover it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In spite of color coding my explanation, you still do not understand. I never said that eternal life is "an effect". What I said, and you missed, was that the possession of eternal life is the effect of Jesus giving the gift to believers.

Let us apply your word play to real life. Do you tell those you love to whom you give a present that their possession of that persent is an effect that comes from the cause of you giving it? Do they like this description of them receiving a present? That them having it is an EFFECT That proceeds from a CAUSE? Do you see the problem here? Do you that you reducing having what is given to a EFFECT that proceeds from a heartless and humanless CAUSE eliminates love? And the focus is you POSSESSING the matter and not the matter (salvation) itself.

As to never perishing, that is the effect of possessing eternal life.

That which is possessed can be lost. And, in fact, anything possessed can be lost. The whole idea of it being possessed means it can be lost. You have ensured that the matter can be lost.

Why can't you just deal with John 10:28, where Jesus SAID He gives them (believers) eternal life? That's the issue here.

Why you deal with the fact that that which is possessed can assuredly be lost? To use biblical terms, one can shipwreak ones salvation. One can neglect it. ONe can walk away from it. It does not mean that it is merely not going well.

And you seem to want to ignore what Jesus said in John 10:28.

And you seem to want to ignore what Jesus said when he said that many will fall away FROM the faith. Means the faith is lost. Why is this not clear?

This seems to suggest that if faith ceases, then one loses salvation.

That is true. When one no longer believes, one has lost salvation. One gave it up and jumped out of the hand that held them where no one can snatch them. Jesus said why and it is always the reasons he suggested. Life is too difficult or too pleasurable, in short. They jumped out of the hand. IT happens.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Pet 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

If this is describing the end of a life. The person did not believe at the end, the stand condemned. Does not matter if they believed during their life. Their faith did not endure for the reasons Jesus said would happen. I have know a few cases and all of them are for the reasons Jesus said.

The red words in both verses clearly state who will be condemned: those who NEVER BELIEVED.

Where is the word "never" is those verses? "Have not believed" is the past tense but does not cover the whole life. It covers the end and endurance is required. Jesus said he who endures to the end will be saved.

So, if one loses faith, it cannot be said of them that they "never believed".

The bible does not use the word "never" as to believed. That plays no role, frankly speaking. If one repents of not believing and believes, one can be saved. If one believes but repents of believing and decides not to believe, they are lost. Losing faith requires having it first. You need to drop "never" as God looks at the life, all of it, and not just the bits you like, such as the years one believed.

And your view is in direct opposition to what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life in John 10:28, the verse that you keep ignoring.

No, you have to add words to the Bible like "never believed" which is not there, anywhere, to make your theology work. The warnings of Jesus you ignore. You do not have to take care lest you stumble and fall in your OSAS theology.

Eternal security is promised by Jesus clearly, plainly and directly in John 10:28, the verse that you just don't want to deal with.

Neither Jesus nor anyone in the Bible promises eternal security nor anything close to is. YOu think because no one can snatch you out, that you cannot leave. I assure you, you can and many have. Jesus said many would fall away from the faith they had. They lost what he had possesed and were lost.

And I even color coded it for easy understanding of my points.

You can add three more colors and it does not change all the warnings that every writer of the NT wrote, warning believers of losing the eternal life they possessed by falling away from the faith, neglecting their salvation, shipwreaking their faith, and so on. For you and other OSAS adherents, these words are not for them. Who they are for is a mystery but not for them. For OSASers, they are in like flint even if they decide not to believe anymore cause it gets too difficult or costly.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm not OSAS. I believe you can lose your salvation and once that has occurred you cannot get it back. Hebrews 6:4-6

You have not been reading ANY of my posts if you think I'm OSAS

There ought to be a thank you button instaed of the funny one.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Also you have provided ZERO scripture to support any of your arguments. Just a "I know God better than you."

Not true. I told you that Judas walked away and Jesus did not prevent him from doing so. Do you really need the scripture for that? I told you the 70 walked away and Jesus did nothing to pevent them from doing so. Do you need the scriptures for that? Jesus said all of the disciples would fall away and abandon him and they all did. They repented and came back. But Jesus did not prevent them from falling away. What more do you need?

Sorry to rain on your parade... but no you don't.

You don't even cast a shadow on my parade. You know too little.

Provide one scripture that says you can be unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved unsaved then saved then unsaved then saved

Again, you know too little to discuss this. NO one says the ABOVE. No one. But Jesus said many would fall away from the faith and that happens. Do you need the scripture for that? YOu might because you do not seem to know the scriptures well.

This is how I know the Holy Spirit is not within you, your attitude and words. This is also how it is clear that you have not repented. You are sorry for what you gave up that you once enjoyed. True. But that is not sorry for what you did. This attitude I have not seen.