Is anything <= God?

erealmz · Aug 30, 2017

Winken said:
God is Spirit (not "a" spirit). No "mind" functioning is involved. You wonder if God ever felt alone. Therein you identify God as the subject of your belief system. (Capital G).

I have the same thoughts about "Q" so I must believe in him as well.

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

No. Anything greater than than God would then be God, and God would then no longer be God. A primary attribute in traditional Abrahamic theism is that
A) There is nothing greater than God and
B) There is nothing equal or like God.

Could anything exist apart from him?

Not from the Christian perspective, we confess faith in "in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen", and in our Scriptures we confess that the Divine Logos is that which is the cause of all things and is that by which all things exist, "All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being."

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

Not from a Christian perspective. God is both entirely transcendent and fully immanent; thus God is above and beyond all things and simultaneously pervades all things. Nothing can exist apart from or outside of God, though God is other than and above all other things.

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

If there were a reality above and beyond God then yes, it would be greater than Him; and that would therefore be an obvious problem in which case God is no longer God.

Something akin to what is proposed by St. Anselm is taken as axiomatic: "God is that then which nothing greater can be conceived" followed by "God is that then which nothing greater can exist." While Anselm uses this as as part of his ontological argument, that's not my use here; but rather to provide a place for understanding how Christians typically and historically understand God. God is, in the Old Testament, is given the epithet shaddai, i.e., El Shaddai, "God Most Strong" or "God Most Powerful"; in Greek He is called Pantokrator, or "All-Ruler" or "Ruler of Everything", both are translated into Latin as Omnipotens, "All-Powerful", which is how English gets the word "Almighty". God is most great, most high, most strong (note that divine omnipotence isn't about God being able to do absolutely anything, e.g. create a square circle, but instead speaks of God as maximally powerful, maximally great, etc; there is nothing above, beyond, or beside God).

-CryptoLutheran

2PhiloVoid · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
Is that assuming "good" is objective? And for God to recognize it rather than create it means that it must outside him?

Not really. Even if the Good that God recognizes is subjective, we still need to realize also that if God Himself is, as Tillich would say, the Ground of All Being, then whatever 'Good' God recognizes is a part of that ground of being--not outside God, but inside.

If he can not experience such emotions as were mentioned, then how can he recognize them?

It is possible that God experiences various emotions that, however expansive and deep, do not weaken Him as they might us because He is not subject to mental disorder. Ay? What do you think?

erealmz · Aug 30, 2017

2PhiloVoid said:
Not really. Even if the Good that God recognizes is subjective, we still need to realize also that if God Himself is, as Tillich would say, the Ground of All Being, then whatever 'Good' God recognizes is a part of that ground of being--not outside God, but inside.

It is possible that God experiences various emotions that, however expansive and deep, do not weaken Him as they might us because He is not subject to mental disorder. Ay? What do you think?

Beautifully said. This is kinda how my cousin talks whenever we have debates. Nonetheless, I can not imagine a reality outside of God. This is one of the reasons I stopped believing in Hell on my road to athiesm. I would joke, "if nothing can exist outside of God than he probably has eternal heartburn". ;-)

erealmz · Aug 30, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
No. Anything greater than than God would then be God, and God would then no longer be God. A primary attribute in traditional Abrahamic theism is that
A) There is nothing greater than God and
B) There is nothing equal or like God.

Not from the Christian perspective, we confess faith in "in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen", and in our Scriptures we confess that the Divine Logos is that which is the cause of all things and is that by which all things exist, "All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being."

Not from a Christian perspective. God is both entirely transcendent and fully immanent; thus God is above and beyond all things and simultaneously pervades all things. Nothing can exist apart from or outside of God, though God is other than and above all other things.

If there were a reality above and beyond God then yes, it would be greater than Him; and that would therefore be an obvious problem in which case God is no longer God.

Something akin to what is proposed by St. Anselm is taken as axiomatic: "God is that then which nothing greater can be conceived" followed by "God is that then which nothing greater can exist." While Anselm uses this as as part of his ontological argument, that's not my use here; but rather to provide a place for understanding how Christians typically and historically understand God. God is, in the Old Testament, is given the epithet shaddai, i.e., El Shaddai, "God Most Strong" or "God Most Powerful"; in Greek He is called Pantokrator, or "All-Ruler" or "Ruler of Everything", both are translated into Latin as Omnipotens, "All-Powerful", which is how English gets the word "Almighty". God is most great, most high, most strong (note that divine omnipotence isn't about God being able to do absolutely anything, e.g. create a square circle, but instead speaks of God as maximally powerful, maximally great, etc; there is nothing above, beyond, or beside God).

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you. This is really insightful. I'm learning a lot here.

ViaCrucis · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
it makes me wonder if God ever felt alone and so created this dream to cope with that loneliness.

The Christian address to such a notion would involve speaking of the Trinity. There is no "alone" to speak of because the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are, eternally, together. This issue is also taken up by St. Augustine in his work On the Trinity in which he specifically addresses the topic of Divine Love, his argument being that for love to exist there must be three components: That which loves, that which is loved, and the love itself. The loss of any of these renders love deficient in some capacity; without that which loves there can be nothing which is loved or love at all; without that which is loved the love is bound to become selfish and thus not really love at all; etc. Instead we see that with God there is always Lover, Beloved, and Love; and this loving goes forth from One to Another--that is, the Father loves the Son, and the Son loves the Father, and the Spirit is between the two. This, fundamentally then, becomes the love we see expressed in the Incarnation and toward us; the love which God loves the world is a bringing of the world into the love which always has been: Here God brings what He has made into the reality of Himself as He has been for all eternity.

God has always been love, there has always been love, always been that which loves, is loved, and is love.

-CryptoLutheran

timewerx · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

You are now digging into the esoteric nature of God....

The answer is yes, a greater reality can exist outside of God....However, even that greater reality is still less than God....Does that make sense?

God (or the Kingdom of God) can also exist/manifest/make an abode/live within a person.

Does that mean the greater reality outside a person is greater than God? The answer is no.

Reference:

1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

2PhiloVoid · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
Beautifully said. This is kinda how my cousin talks whenever we have debates. Nonetheless, I can not imagine a reality outside of God. This is one of the reasons I stopped believing in Hell on my road to athiesm. I would joke, "if nothing can exist outside of God than he probably has eternal heartburn". ;-)

No problem there, erealmz. I'm an Annihilationist myself, so the topic of Hell isn't a frequent topic for me. (Moreover, CF doesn't allow discussion of my position in any forum other than one, and the Kitchen Sink isn't it. )

Anyway, I'm with you in that neither do I think there could be a reality outside of God. I've always kind of fancied that our universe was 'inside' God, kind of like a brain cell is inside the brain. But, who knows?

~Anastasia~ · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
Beautifully said. This is kinda how my cousin talks whenever we have debates. Nonetheless, I can not imagine a reality outside of God. This is one of the reasons I stopped believing in Hell on my road to athiesm. I would joke, "if nothing can exist outside of God than he probably has eternal heartburn". ;-)

There is a thought that hell is not a place of created fiery torment such as Dante described. Rather, "our God is a consuming fire" in the sense that He is love. If one enters into His presence in eternity, who completely rejects and despises Him, and yet ... God being everywhere present, pure love, and loving that one who hates Him, and the one who hates cannot escape Him or His love ... it would be reasonable for them to experience it as a fiery torment. But not because God has determined to punish them. Rather, it is a torment of their own making.

SkyWriting · Aug 30, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

Les than is incorrect...but a great headline. I think people headline with bad grammar on purpose sometimes.

God claims to be the "I AM" which would answer your greater than question , no.

Halbhh · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

It can help to understand presumptions of course. Consider this key one --

Naturalism: "a philosophical viewpoint according to which everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded..."

In other words, the assumption that God would have to be contained inside nature.

That God is inside/subject to physics. An assumption.

Of course, few people that presume naturalism even become aware of it as being an assumption or premise.

Obviously, if you presume naturalism then God is less than the totality of nature, then merely a part of the Universe, contained inside of it.

But the assumption contradicts what believers typically know about God, that He literally originated nature as we see it, all the Universe.

Now, the Universe is simply physics. (The Universe is merely physics in action) A person with a degree in physics that believes in God could say, like me, that God created physics (chose, fine tuned, built...or simply spoke it into being). He is above physics. Independent of physics.

But I don't think of God as merely outside or above the Universe, but instead, He is unknowable in totality, and we only sense Him in part, at most, and He is the ground of being, of existence itself. That something exists, instead of nothing.

If these words communicate something, that's great. But if not, they are merely words, yes? See? The transcendent isn't capturable by words ultimately.

Campbell helped point at this. To paraphrase, poor descriptions attempt to specify that which cannot be specified. A better description tries to suggest the ineffable. The best description (which mine here isn't) could help point towards the ineffable. Such as many of the Psalms, for instance. But, as Campbell said, even that is inadequate to capture the ineffable. At best, it helps us to connect to our own connection. If we are willing to find that. It's a seeking process.

13 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

Dave-W · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

You did. You have "less than or equal to.."

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

No.

Could anything exist apart from him?

No.

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

No.

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

No - it is contained in Him.

Silmarien · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

Nope. If there's a reality greater than God, then it's that reality that is actually God. This is why a lot of the polytheistic traditions start rethinking their cosmologies and end up with Vedanta's Brahman or the Greek God of the Philosophers.

Catherineanne · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

If there were anything/anyone greater than God then that thing or person would be God.

Therefore, by definition, no.

Catherineanne · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Thank you. So if there could be a reality outside of God, and he created this reality, then what had to exist before it in order for God to exist? Or did he just exist in a void?

We can ask such questions, but we have no way of knowing the answer.

In science there is the same problem if anyone asks what existed before the Big Bang; it is impossible to answer.

Catherineanne · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Now since he is spaceless and timeless, yet encompasses all existence, then there can be no reality outside of such existence. Since that must be the case, then all this is going on inside God's mind. Like a dream or hallucination. God is hallucinating us.

You can believe that if you want, but it is not a standard Christian interpretation of reality.

Catherineanne · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
But do not Christians do the same thing with their circular reasoning which they claim comes from their ability to understand scripture? What's the difference?

Try starting with St Anselm. He suggests that God is that, greater than which we cannot conceive.

In other words, our very best concepts of who and what God is have to be true. If we then refine our concepts and find a more humane, or more generous, or more loving version of God, then we have to refine our concept. God himself does not change, but our understanding of just how loving, generous and merciful he is change year on year as we gain in our own humanity.

Therefore a concept that was acceptable 2000 years ago may well be insufficient today. God has not changed; we have.

Some representations of God leave a lot to be desired, and very often when talking to those who claim not to believe in God they will describe one of these inadequate representations. They tell me that they cannot believe in a God who would sent people to eternal hellfire, for example.

The simple answer to that one is that the god they don't believe in is one I don't believe in either; it is an inadequate concept which fails Anselm's test. Is it possible to imagine a God more loving than one who tortures people endlessly? Of course it is; therefore the psychopath god is out; the Living God of love, mercy and compassion is in.

If you don't believe in God perhaps your imagination is letting you down; your idea of God is quite simply too small, too human, too fallible, too resentful or angry. God is none of these things.

toLiJC · Aug 31, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

there is nothing without God, i.e. every thing that is existing/present/available in the universe, including the universe itself, is existing/present/available not without Him - He is the heart of everything

what's the difference between one infinite/boundless universe and many (or countless) contiguous universes in the infinite/boundless space? - there is naturally one God and what He has found as rational is that there is no point in dividing the universe into many universes, i.e. there is one infinite/boundless universe and one (true) system Administrator(God) in/of it...

Blessings

quatona · Sep 3, 2017

erealmz said:
Edit: I got my math symbol backwards... I think.

Could there be anything greater than or equal to God?

Could anything exist apart from him?

Could there be a reality outside of God?... That he exists within?

If so, would this reality be considered greater than him since it contains him?

Define "great" for purposes of discussing your question.

erealmz · Sep 5, 2017

Catherineanne said:
Try starting with St Anselm. He suggests that God is that, greater than which we cannot conceive.

In other words, our very best concepts of who and what God is have to be true. If we then refine our concepts and find a more humane, or more generous, or more loving version of God, then we have to refine our concept. God himself does not change, but our understanding of just how loving, generous and merciful he is change year on year as we gain in our own humanity.

Therefore a concept that was acceptable 2000 years ago may well be insufficient today. God has not changed; we have.

Some representations of God leave a lot to be desired, and very often when talking to those who claim not to believe in God they will describe one of these inadequate representations. They tell me that they cannot believe in a God who would sent people to eternal hellfire, for example.

The simple answer to that one is that the god they don't believe in is one I don't believe in either; it is an inadequate concept which fails Anselm's test. Is it possible to imagine a God more loving than one who tortures people endlessly? Of course it is; therefore the psychopath god is out; the Living God of love, mercy and compassion is in.

If you don't believe in God perhaps your imagination is letting you down; your idea of God is quite simply too small, too human, too fallible, too resentful or angry. God is none of these things.

This is a beautiful concept. If God was presented in this way through a perfect system of faith that he truly created, then I would most likely still believe in him. But the fallible Bible does not hold up to such a system and so I do not believe it is truly his word.

Is anything <= God?

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"God"? What do you mean??

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