• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is anyone else noticing a rapid and increasing anti-Christian sentiment?

Status
Not open for further replies.

PalmBayChuck

Newbie
Mar 18, 2009
1
0
✟22,611.00
Faith
Baptist
I notice this primarily on the web and am startled at the speed at which it's taking place. On social sites like Digg and Reddit (which I don't recommend to anyone here anymore), there is a huge increase in postings by atheists which seem to be increasingly aggressive and nasty. I see this also in newspaper articles. Just in the last 6 months or so, everything Christian seems to be under increased attack.

Is my perception accurate here? Or am I loony?
 

56Bluesman

Newbie
Jul 10, 2008
409
16
I live in beautiful Omaha Nebraska
✟23,252.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
I notice this primarily on the web and am startled at the speed at which it's taking place. On social sites like Digg and Reddit (which I don't recommend to anyone here anymore), there is a huge increase in postings by atheists which seem to be increasingly aggressive and nasty. I see this also in newspaper articles. Just in the last 6 months or so, everything Christian seems to be under increased attack.

Is my perception accurate here? Or am I loony?

No you aren't loony, maybe you haven't gotten around as much in the secular world as you have as of late, and it seems to be new to you.

Don't be surprised as our Lord warned us that the world hated him first, and we his followers can expect the world to hate us because of him. This will be a fact of life for every generation of beleivers until the Kingdom comes, to put it simply.

As for the atheists coming out, with vigor and venom, it's the latest trend of philosophical atheism to get militant with an evangelical zeal these days. Biologist Richard Dawkins has led the charge with his book ' The God Delusion ' with the notion that science can prove that God doesn't exsist, and of course one Christopher Hitchens also authored a popular book titled ' God Is Not Good ', which recycles the tired old atheistic apologetics 101 I was exposed to back in college in the 70's by the pot smoking intellects of the era. Trust me when I say that Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have brought nothing new to the debate that hasn't already been answered by christians involved with serious apologetics. Sadly however the atheists are getting the attention they crave so badly from the general secular culture. I hope this helps to explain what's been going on.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
This shouldn't be a huge surprise for a couple of reasons:

First, and this is the one that I think probably gets too much of the focus, Scripture tell us that those who speak the Truth are always going to make enemies, and that we are blessed when this happens to us. I, for one, don't want to get caught up in complaining about this, because it is part of being a follower of Jesus, and it is a source of blessing.

Second, nearly all people tend to judge groups by their most outstanding members (whether for good or for bad). Thus, many Americans assume that all (real) Muslims think along the same lines of Osama bin Laden (wheras, reality, those who do are a relatively small minority of the Muslim population). By the same token, we have some in leadership in the Church who are incredibly shallow, superficial, and unbiblial in the image they present to the world (such as the prosperity teachers); some who use their position in the Church to abuse (such as both Catholic and Protestant clergy who have sexually abused and/or assaulted parishoners); some who are downright bigoted and hateful (such as the "Reverend" Fred Phelps); and some who are manipulative and greedy (such as certain TV pastors making eight and nine figure incomes in the pastorate on the backs of the poor). As Christians, we know that these charicatures represent a very small minority. Nonetheless, it is not surprising that we are judged by them, especially when statistics bear out that we in the church show no great distinction in our conduct in regard to several important moral issues (such as divorce, porn addiction, and giving to the poor).

With these two factors in mind, I believe that we need to seriously consider how we go about defeating the sterotype that Christianity breeds bigotry, abuse, greed, and superficiality, while at the same time continuing to speak the Truth in love. There seems to be this mentality that we are blessed when we are persecuted and that it doesn't really matter why we are persecuted. So, some Christians will go out of their way to stir up "persecution." But, keep in mind, Jesus said "blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you, because of me." I believe that we are called to be the salt and light, to love in the face of abuses within the Church and speak the Truth in love regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

arunma

Flaming Calvinist
Apr 29, 2004
14,818
820
41
✟19,415.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I remember reading an article recently to the effect that the number of people who call themselves Christians in America has gone down from 86% to 75%. Most of them weren't Christian anyway, but the point is still clear. Apparently Christianity in the West is about to enjoy less popular acceptance than before. I think we're decades if not centuries away from anything that I would dare to call persecution. But America is genuinely moving into a post-Christian era.

This could be a good thing. In recent years American churches have produced weak theologies and outright heresies like the Emergent movement (no offense Dies3l, I do see the Rob Bell quote). These movements have created a false dichotomy between loving our enemies and God's wrath against unbelievers, and unbiblically open up the possibility that non-Christians can go to heaven. This hatred for the wrath of God has caused many churches to abandon fundamental doctrines like penal substitution. Maybe in a hundred years or so if the American church faces real persecution, we will start to cherish what the Bible teaches about the Lamb's wrath against those who do not believe in him, and our doctrine will be purified.
 
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
. In recent years American churches have produced weak theologies and outright heresies like the Emergent movement (no offense Dies3l, I do see the Rob Bell quote).

Certainly no offense taken (as long as you don't plan to burn me or ban me for disagreeing with you on this point ;) ), but I do suspect the comment comes from a lack understanding of the complexity and diversity of the emerging church movement (of which the Emergent Church is only one small part).

I would add, also, that I think this statement is a good illustration of the point that I made in my last post that we often judge entire groups by the actions or words that the group's outliers.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LiturgyInDMinor

Celtic Rite Old Catholic Church
Feb 20, 2009
4,915
435
✟7,265.00
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
"Stay Strong"
Lyrics by Newsboys | from the album The Ultimate Collection

You're in the moment now
A bitter root
A wandering eye and then
The ties that bind start wearing thin, thin

You're in the moment now
When all you've been blessed with
Is not enough
Here's where the ground gets loose
Here's where the devils call your bluff

Stay strong
You are not lost
Come on and fix your eyes ahead
There's a new dawn to light our day, our day
You've gotta stay strong
You and I run
For the prize that lies ahead
We've come too far to lose our way, our way

We've seen the tragic flaws
The tortured souls
The saints with feet of clay
Here's where sin becomes cliche'

We've come through wilderness and watched
The cloud by day
The burning sky into dawn
Have you forgotten who you are?
Did you forget whose trip you're on?

Stay strong
You are not lost
Come on and fix your eyes ahead
There's a new dawn to light our day, our day
We've gotta stay strong
You and I run
For the prize that lies ahead
We've come too far to lose our way, our way

Get up, there's further to go
Get up, there's more to be done
Get up, this witness is sure
Get up, this race can be won
This race can be won

We've gotta stay strong
You are not lost
Come on and fix your eyes ahead
Our Father's dawn will light our day, our day
Come on and stay strong
His grip is sure
And His patience still endures
There'll be no letting go today, no way

Come on, and stay strong
You and I run
For the prize that lies ahead
We've come too far to lose our way, our way.



God bless. :)
 
Upvote 0

icamewithasword

Mine enemy is the Enemy [and Lib Christian Theo]
Mar 17, 2009
440
33
Benton, AR
✟23,278.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I notice this primarily on the web and am startled at the speed at which it's taking place. On social sites like Digg and Reddit (which I don't recommend to anyone here anymore), there is a huge increase in postings by atheists which seem to be increasingly aggressive and nasty. I see this also in newspaper articles. Just in the last 6 months or so, everything Christian seems to be under increased attack.


Is my perception accurate here? Or am I loony?

Ohhh, I thought you meant on this site.....
Haven't been to those, thanks for the warning.
 
Upvote 0

Jeffersonian

Soli Deo Gloria
Mar 18, 2009
234
9
35
Santo Domingo
Visit site
✟22,910.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
God's Kingdom is already here.

Sorry but im not agree on that, this world is ruled by the principles of Satan. His Kingdom will be establish in the Second Coming...

Praise God! our King will return.
 
Upvote 0

LiturgyInDMinor

Celtic Rite Old Catholic Church
Feb 20, 2009
4,915
435
✟7,265.00
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God's Kingdom is already here.

Sorry but im not agree on that, this world is ruled by the principles of Satan. His Kingdom will be establish in the Second Coming...

Praise God! our King will return.


I agree with your disagreement of the first quote here.
Interesting topic for debate nonetheless...perhaps another thread for this one???
 
Upvote 0

Phileoeklogos

Alten Schule Baptist
Mar 8, 2006
603
98
OHIO
✟23,763.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The thing I find most interesting about all of this is the rise of atheistic evangelism, the preaching of the "good news" of atheism is in high gear, in every media, just look at the number of atheists converging on this forum. Statistically I wonder if Islamic, Hindu, etc,etc.... sites have the same atheist traffic as Christian sites have? I spend no time on knitting, fly fishing or atheist websites, and before I was saved I don't think I even spent 5 minutes debating anyone about what they believe, but these folks are quite religious about their atheism, it seems like their is an unseen power working in them, hmmm.......
 
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
I agree with your disagreement of the first quote here.
Interesting topic for debate nonetheless...perhaps another thread for this one???

You are right that it is off topic. But, I would like only to ask that you look at the following passages as a guide for understanding my prior comment:

Matthew 16:21-28
Mark 8:32-9:1
Luke 9:18-27

I think these are pretty clear, but if any discussion of these is warranted, then perhaps another thread is a good option.
 
Upvote 0

arunma

Flaming Calvinist
Apr 29, 2004
14,818
820
41
✟19,415.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I agree with your disagreement of the first quote here.
Interesting topic for debate nonetheless...perhaps another thread for this one???

I've studied this issue in some depth. It's actually a very important topic (I agree with you and Jeffersonian, by the way), because there is a theological conflict in the modern church over the issue of the Kingdom of God. The heretics of the Emergent church movement (including such theologians as Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Steve Chalke, and others) claim that the the Kingdom of God is already here in its fullness. Now, I want to be careful not to proclaim posters here guilty by association with these theologians, or by their adherance to this view of the Kingdom of God. So I want to be clear that I am not personally attacking Dies3l or passing summary judgment on him. I don't even know him well enough to do such a thing. But I do want to illustrate the problems with the Emergent view of the Kingdom of God, and why it can lead to heresy and apostasy.

I think most orthodox Christians here will agree with me that the Bible portrays the Kingdom of God as something yet to come, but also here in part. We must be careful to hold these two in tension. You obviously know of certain brands of "RaptureBaptists" who believe that the Kingdom is not here at all. The Emergers go the other way, and claim that the Kingdom is here in its fullness. This leads to problems. This part of the Emergent heresy is nothing new, because some of the Ephesians in the first century believed that the Kingdom had already come:
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
How could these two heretics say that the resurrection had already happened? Wasn't it clear that the dead had not been raised to life? Obviously, the problem with Hymenaeus and Philetus is that they misunderstood the nature of the general resurrection of the dead. Bible commentator Adam Clarke elaborates on why this theology is so deadly,
They had the truth, but erred or wandered from it, saying the resurrection was already past, and thus denying the resurrection of the body, and, by consequence, future rewards and punishments; and this necessarily sapped the foundation of all religion: and thus the gangrene had, in reference to their unhappy votaries, a rapid and unchecked operation.
So if you deny the resurrection, your likely motive is to deny the existence of a future heaven where all believers are predestined, and a future hell where all non-Christians will endure eternal conscious torment. Adam Clarke predicts that this theology saps the foundation of the faith. I find it interesting that Clarke's prediction finds its fulfillment in the Emergent church. Emergent theologians have called into question the doctrine that God sends all non-Christians to hell. And indeed they do sap the foundation of all religion, because they also deny penal substitutionary atonement. They deny the doctrine that God laid all our sins on Christ and nailed him to the cross, and imputed all of Christ's goodness to us. Without this doctrine, I don't know how you can even have a Gospel. So the issue of the Kingdom of God is very important, because incorrect thinking about it will invariably lead to heresy and denial of the faith.

So, what about the Gospel passages in which Jesus refers to the coming Kingdom? Let's look at one of them:
Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:28)
There is a certain sense in which the institution of the church at Pentecost inaugurates the Kingdom of God. As it says,
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Luke 17:20-21)
Some translations say that the Kingdom of God is "within you." In a way, the Kingdom of God is present in the church because of the ministry of the Holy Spirit working within us. But lest we forget that the Kingdom is also yet to come, Jesus says in the same breath,
For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. (Luke 17:24)
So there is a sign that attends the coming of the Kingdom, even though it has already come without a sign. The second coming of Christ will be unlike the first, because it will be unmistakable. No one will have any doubts as to whether or not Christ is who he says he is, and there will be judgment for those who didn't believe in him (= eternal hell).

Ultimately we don't want to hole ourselves up in a mountain with our families and wait for the rapture. But we also don't want to live as though the Kingdom is here in its fullness. The Emergent heretics started down their path with good intentions. They saw that the church wasn't doing enough about the environment, social justice, sex trafficking in other countries, etc. But then they got the false idea that loving one's neighbor is inconsistent with telling one's neighbor that he will go to hell if he doesn't give up his false religion and confess Jesus as Lord. So they resurrected (no pun intended) the theology of Hymenaeus and Philetus, and said that the Kingdom of God is already here. This serves their agenda in two ways. First, as Rob Bell puts it, it motivates us to bring heaven to earth, meaning that we should uphold social justice in God's kingdom. Second, it obscures the idea of a final judgment that is yet to come, so that we can believe that non-Christians might not go to hell (because the general resurrection has already happened, in a sense).

I believe that the Emergent heresy is ultimately self-defeating. If the Kingdom of God is already here, then we have to wonder why God hasn't righted all wrongs. This ultimately takes away our hope of ever fixing the problems of the world. Jesus himself said that although we must help the poor, we will never be able to end poverty (Matthew 26:11). But if we trust Jesus rather than invent our own theology, then we know that the Kingdom of God is here in part. So it is important that we uphold social justice. But we must also trust Jesus when he says that all non-Christians are going to hell, and this is unsettling to Emergents. We must never give up the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for all non-Christians. Jesus taught this doctrine, and we must take him at his word. Let us not stray into the ancient heresy of saying that the resurrection has already happened.
 
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
I've studied this issue in some depth. It's actually a very important topic (I agree with you and Jeffersonian, by the way), because there is a theological conflict in the modern church over the issue of the Kingdom of God. The heretics of the Emergent church movement (including such theologians as Rob Bell, Brian McLaren, Steve Chalke, and others) claim that the the Kingdom of God is already here in its fullness. Now, I want to be careful not to proclaim posters here guilty by association with these theologians, or by their adherance to this view of the Kingdom of God. So I want to be clear that I am not personally attacking Dies3l or passing summary judgment on him. I don't even know him well enough to do such a thing. But I do want to illustrate the problems with the Emergent view of the Kingdom of God, and why it can lead to heresy and apostasy.

I think most orthodox Christians here will agree with me that the Bible portrays the Kingdom of God as something yet to come, but also here in part. We must be careful to hold these two in tension. You obviously know of certain brands of "RaptureBaptists" who believe that the Kingdom is not here at all. The Emergers go the other way, and claim that the Kingdom is here in its fullness. This leads to problems. This part of the Emergent heresy is nothing new, because some of the Ephesians in the first century believed that the Kingdom had already come:
But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have swerved from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:16-18)
How could these two heretics say that the resurrection had already happened? Wasn't it clear that the dead had not been raised to life? Obviously, the problem with Hymenaeus and Philetus is that they misunderstood the nature of the general resurrection of the dead. Bible commentator Adam Clarke elaborates on why this theology is so deadly,
They had the truth, but erred or wandered from it, saying the resurrection was already past, and thus denying the resurrection of the body, and, by consequence, future rewards and punishments; and this necessarily sapped the foundation of all religion: and thus the gangrene had, in reference to their unhappy votaries, a rapid and unchecked operation.

So if you deny the resurrection, your likely motive is to deny the existence of a future heaven where all believers are predestined, and a future hell where all non-Christians will endure eternal conscious torment. Adam Clarke predicts that this theology saps the foundation of the faith. I find it interesting that Clarke's prediction finds its fulfillment in the Emergent church. Emergent theologians have called into question the doctrine that God sends all non-Christians to hell. And indeed they do sap the foundation of all religion, because they also deny penal substitutionary atonement. They deny the doctrine that God laid all our sins on Christ and nailed him to the cross, and imputed all of Christ's goodness to us. Without this doctrine, I don't know how you can even have a Gospel. So the issue of the Kingdom of God is very important, because incorrect thinking about it will invariably lead to heresy and denial of the faith.

So, what about the Gospel passages in which Jesus refers to the coming Kingdom? Let's look at one of them:

Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. (Matthew 16:28)
There is a certain sense in which the institution of the church at Pentecost inaugurates the Kingdom of God. As it says,
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Luke 17:20-21)
Some translations say that the Kingdom of God is "within you." In a way, the Kingdom of God is present in the church because of the ministry of the Holy Spirit working within us. But lest we forget that the Kingdom is also yet to come, Jesus says in the same breath,
For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. (Luke 17:24)
So there is a sign that attends the coming of the Kingdom, even though it has already come without a sign. The second coming of Christ will be unlike the first, because it will be unmistakable. No one will have any doubts as to whether or not Christ is who he says he is, and there will be judgment for those who didn't believe in him (= eternal hell).

Ultimately we don't want to hole ourselves up in a mountain with our families and wait for the rapture. But we also don't want to live as though the Kingdom is here in its fullness. The Emergent heretics started down their path with good intentions. They saw that the church wasn't doing enough about the environment, social justice, sex trafficking in other countries, etc. But then they got the false idea that loving one's neighbor is inconsistent with telling one's neighbor that he will go to hell if he doesn't give up his false religion and confess Jesus as Lord. So they resurrected (no pun intended) the theology of Hymenaeus and Philetus, and said that the Kingdom of God is already here. This serves their agenda in two ways. First, as Rob Bell puts it, it motivates us to bring heaven to earth, meaning that we should uphold social justice in God's kingdom. Second, it obscures the idea of a final judgment that is yet to come, so that we can believe that non-Christians might not go to hell (because the general resurrection has already happened, in a sense).

I believe that the Emergent heresy is ultimately self-defeating. If the Kingdom of God is already here, then we have to wonder why God hasn't righted all wrongs. This ultimately takes away our hope of ever fixing the problems of the world. Jesus himself said that although we must help the poor, we will never be able to end poverty (Matthew 26:11). But if we trust Jesus rather than invent our own theology, then we know that the Kingdom of God is here in part. So it is important that we uphold social justice. But we must also trust Jesus when he says that all non-Christians are going to hell, and this is unsettling to Emergents. We must never give up the doctrine of eternal conscious torment for all non-Christians. Jesus taught this doctrine, and we must take him at his word. Let us not stray into the ancient heresy of saying that the resurrection has already happened.

First, I want to say that I do not take any offense to anything you have said. Assuming that you are sincere in your presentation, and I believe that you are, it is obvious from your post that you are poorly informed about what I and some in the emerging church movement actually believe and teach. And, if upon understanding what I believe, you still choose to call me a heretic, I figure that that places me in the ranks of the Reformers of the Church and the members of the early Church, who were labelled as heretics/blasphemers for preaching the truth of God's grace. ;)

If we believe the teachings of Jesus (and John the Baptist), it is beyond reasonable debate whether the Kingdom has come to earth. Some believe that it came at the resurrection; some believe that it came at Pentecost, but regardless of which view one takes, as you seem to admit in the post, Jesus taught that it was to come during the lifetimes of those who walked with Him. If you can provide an alterantive intepretation of the passaged of Scripture I referred to above, then I would be happy to consider them. But, frankly, I don't see how these passages can be interpreted differently than I have.

You seem to mistakenly assume that emerging Christians deny the resurrection. As the emerging movement is quite diverse in its viewpoint, I cannot say that this untrue of all emergings. But, I can say for certain that this is untrue when it comes to preachers like Rob Bell, who is someone that I have quite a lot of respect for. Bell's theology of the afterlife, I undestand is based, in many ways, on the writings and teachings of N.T. Wright. Wright's criticism of the evangelical movement is that many within that movement deny the biblical teachings of bodily resurrection and the future restoration of the Earth. Neither he nor Bell (nor I for that matter) believe that the resurrection or that this restoration has already occured.

Another bit of confusion that you seem to bring to the discussion is the assumption that the coming of the God's Kingdom is the same thing as the resurrection. As I have pointed out already, it is clear from Scripture that God's Kingdom has already come. It is also clear from Scripture and by observation that the resurrection has not yet occurred, and God has not yet brought about the New Earth promised in Revelation 21. So, reason demands that these two events are not the same thing, and we need to be careful not to confuse the two.

So, this raises the question, if God's kingdom has already come, then why is there still so much evil in the world? This question inherently confuses the coming of God's kingdom with the restoration of Earth. By definition, a kingdom is nothing more than a structure of authority. To be valid, an authority structure, such as a kingdom does not need to be imposed by force to be valid; it need only be recognized as authority by those subject to it. I would argue that God's kingdom was established on the Earth upon the resurrection of Jesus, because it was this moment that a new power structure, that of a God of mercy of grace, was established for those who would accept it. This, however, is not the moment at which He has chosen to subject all Creation to the authority of the Kingdom by force. He has given us, His Church, time to preach the coming of His Kingdom and to make disciples of all nations.

In His grace and mercy, He has given us this opportunity to welcome others into His Kingdom, before that future date at which all other authorities will be destroyed and those who have rejected God's Kingdom will be destroyed.

The concept of eternal damnation and hell is not only, consistent with the view that I have elaborated, it is strengthened by it. In order for Creation to be fully restored, if God is merciful and gracious enough to allow us to choose to reject Him, there must exist a place in which God's authority is absent (i.e., Hell, Gehenna, Sheol, etc.). Clearly, this view is not an attempt to undermine orthodox teachings about hell and resurrection. Quite the contrary, it is an understanding of Scripture that takes into account the teachings and understanding of the early Church, in which the reality of hell, damnation, and destruction are entirely reconcilable with Gospel of God's Grace.

As this discussion is off topic, I am copying your quoted comment and my response to a new thread. Whether you choose to participate is up to you, but I don't want to derail this thread any further than I already have. (My apologies to the O.P.)
 
Upvote 0

Mykael

Member
Apr 11, 2009
11
3
✟22,647.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Greens
From what I've seen, most anti-Christianity on the internet is aimed at Fundamentalists and Biblical literalists; most of the netizens I know will respect moderate religions. I think this is because the average Internet user is rather skeptical (spiritually), and doesn't take well to the "do it this way or you go to hell" message.

Just my two cents.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.