Is an Open Border Policy a Biblical Mandate?

Desk trauma said:

This isn’t facebook.

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Is that what facebook is like? People posting short statements as text gifs? ughhh.

Hans Blaster said:

Is that what facebook is like? People posting short statements as text gifs? ughhh.

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Often with pictures of Cillian Murphy for no reason.

Adam56 said:

The illegal ones were preferred because they could be paid under minimum wage.

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That's why Republicans don't like asylum seekers. They are here legally and are harder to exploit.

wing2000 said:

From my experience, the people who want hand outs or feel entitled are the Americans who were born here. Immigrants, legal or otherwise, understand the value of hard work. There's a reason American employers have sought them over the entire history of our country.

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Immigrants, legal or other-wise, come here for a variety of reasons. Some are hard workers. The hard workers are usually honest people and so they enter legally.

Employers sought them and still seek them because they can pay them less wages than American citizens, which undermines legal citizens' wage base. These same employers also dislike paying benefits.

Regarding the Holy Family:

They quickly traveled to Egypt because God commanded them to move there to protect Jesus' life because Herod wanted him murdered. I doubt they received hand-outs. The Magi had given them gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

The gold, if needed, could have been used to help support them until Joseph got established with his carpenter trade. I don't believe they arrived in Egypt and expected the Egyptians to immediately support them with food, shelter, and healthcare.

Vylo said:

Funny, I live in NJ, a heavily immigrant state since the country was founded, and we are fine (expensive to retire in, but otherwise definitely top 10).

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I doubt these immigrants came expecting a hand-out.

wing2000 said:

Immigrants, legal or otherwise, understand the value of hard work. There's a reason American employers have sought them over the entire history of our country.

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Yes, they're willing to undercut everyone else's wages, and employers like paying less.

...That's why Cesar Chavez despised illegal immigrants - He was for farmworker unions.

BCP1928 said:

That's why Republicans don't like asylum seekers. They are here legally and are harder to exploit.

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Do you not realize that many “asylum seekers” are lying about being asylum seekers?

Adam56 said:

Do you not realize that many “asylum seekers” are lying about being asylum seekers?

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Of course. But this is not really a discussion about the nuts and bolts of how their claims are being evaluated, is it.

BCP1928 said:

Of course. But this is not really a discussion about the nuts and bolts of how their claims are being evaluated, is it.

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It goes hand in hand with it. Everything is connected regarding immigration and the border.

Jan001 said:

So, if these "refugees" come to steal, kill, destroy, and outlaw Christianity, is that God's will? We should not prevent them from coming in?

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The fact that you jump to the conclusion of "come to steal, kill, destroy, and outlaw Christianity" speaks to a profound and detrimental view. That's the language of the scapegoatist who desires to demonize the other. That's the language of tyrants and fascists who seek to create a populism rooted in "us" against "them".

Learn the lessons of history, and do not repeat them. Or else the dire warnings in Pastor Niemoeller's poem will repeat themselves again and again, perhaps with different names, but the same results.

Tread cautiously, lest in a hundred years we have as the opening of a new poem, "First they came for the immigrants, but I was not an immigrant."

Behold your neighbor with eyes that see, and hear them with ears that hear. For the Lord Himself comes to us hungry, naked, thirsty, and as the foreigner. "I tell you, whatever you did unto the least of these, You did it unto Me". He comes to separate wheat and tare, sheep and goat, and to tread the winepress of God's wrath on the Last Day, when all shall be laid bare, everything done in secret and shadow shall be exposed to the light; and what is wicked shall be consumed in fire where there is gnashing of teeth. For the embittered will remain bitter, unless they open up their hearts to mercy, and bend the knee to Him who forgives them of all their unrighteousness; for without mercy we shall make ourselves kindling.

-CryptoLutheran

Adam56 said:

There is nowhere in the Bible that says wanting a stricter immigration policy is wrong.

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The question is less about what policy our government does or doesn't do. The question is the condition of our hearts in relation to God and neighbor. Those in power will enact policy--the question is, do you abide by the commandments of men, or the commandment of Christ your God? Who do you call lord, Christ or Caesar?

The Christian is called to something more than policy and partisan politics; the Christian is called to, and made subject to, to the kingdom of God.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

The question is less about what policy our government does or doesn't do. The question is the condition of our hearts in relation to God and neighbor. Those in power will enact policy--the question is, do you abide by the commandments of men, or the commandment of Christ your God? Who do you call lord, Christ or Caesar?

The Christian is called to something more than policy and partisan politics; the Christian is called to, and made subject to, to the kingdom of God.

-CryptoLutheran

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I obey God’s laws and the laws of the government.

ViaCrucis said:

The fact that you jump to the conclusion of "come to steal, kill, destroy, and outlaw Christianity" speaks to a profound and detrimental view. That's the language of the scapegoatist who desires to demonize the other. That's the language of tyrants and fascists who seek to create a populism rooted in "us" against "them".

Learn the lessons of history, and do not repeat them. Or else the dire warnings in Pastor Niemoeller's poem will repeat themselves again and again, perhaps with different names, but the same results.

Tread cautiously, lest in a hundred years we have as the opening of a new poem, "First they came for the immigrants, but I was not an immigrant."

Behold your neighbor with eyes that see, and hear them with ears that hear. For the Lord Himself comes to us hungry, naked, thirsty, and as the foreigner. "I tell you, whatever you did unto the least of these, You did it unto Me". He comes to separate wheat and tare, sheep and goat, and to tread the winepress of God's wrath on the Last Day, when all shall be laid bare, everything done in secret and shadow shall be exposed to the light; and what is wicked shall be consumed in fire where there is gnashing of teeth. For the embittered will remain bitter, unless they open up their hearts to mercy, and bend the knee to Him who forgives them of all their unrighteousness; for without mercy we shall make ourselves kindling.

-CryptoLutheran

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I did not jump to the conclusion I made. Muslims do exactly this when they become the majority population. Convert or die. Their plan is Sharia Law for the whole world.

A country is not a country if it cannot control who enters.

I am quite weary of being told that we must allow our country to accept and encourage immigrants, legal or otherwise, or else we will be consumed by fire. I think people may be consumed by fire for neglecting to protect and care for family members. It will be Jesus who will judge us.

1 Timothy 5:8 And whoever does not provide for relatives, and especially for family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Safety is a basic need of all humans.


If we do not stop what is happening to our country now, Christianity will be outlawed by the globalist one-worlders, communists, or Muslims.

If we do not change the trajectory of our country now, in a hundred years, no Christians will be alive to write poetry.

Persecution of Christians in the year 2019:

Link: Countries Where Christianity Is Illegal 2024


Hover over a country on the map and you will find the 2019 status of freedom for Christians in that country.

Since 2019, so-called first world governments used Covid to restrict Christianity, but not strip clubs. Slippery slope is getting much slipperier.

Jan001 said:

I did not jump to the conclusion I made. Muslims do exactly this when they become the majority population. Convert or die. Their plan is Sharia Law for the whole world.

A country is not a country if it cannot control who enters.

I am quite weary of being told that we must allow our country to accept and encourage immigrants, legal or otherwise, or else we will be consumed by fire. I think people may be consumed by fire for neglecting to protect and care for family members. It will be Jesus who will judge us.

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I suppose my problem, then, is two-fold:

1) I thought we were talking about people coming in through our southern border, predominantly those from Latin America. And, last time I checked, all of the Latin American countries are predominantly Christian, not Muslim.

2) Having a rudimentary understanding of Islam, and the diversity that exists within Islam; I find the idea that Muslims entering the country will be putting sharia into practice in the USA to be, frankly, absurd. That's post-9/11 anti-Muslim hysterics. When, in the strictest Muslim nations it is often Muslims themselves who suffer the most; and Muslims seeking life elsewhere are doing so precisely because they want to live somewhere that is religiously tolerant. Muslims, therefore, who come to the US are, therefore, quite devoted to principles of democracy and religious freedom and tolerance. In America, the thread of the US becoming an Iran or Saudi Arabia is--well--about as likely as pigs sprouting wings. The reasoning for which I say this is actually quite simple, and it goes back to my rudimentary knowledge of diversity within Islam. The religion of Islam is not a monolithic religion; not only can Islam be divided into two major branches: Sunni and Shi'a, but there are other forms out there as well; and within Sunni and Shi'a there is a multitude of traditions; the term "denomination" could be borrowed here, but that doesn't quite work. If you think, for example, than a Sunni in America would permit the country to be turned into a Shi'ite nation; or a Shi'ite would permit the country become a Sunni one, then you'd be crazy. This would be like a Catholic being completely okay with America becoming Fundamentalist Baptist, or a Fundamentalist Baptist being completely okay with America becoming Catholic. As though a Fundamentalist Baptist would ever accept, for example, if devotions and petitions toward the Virgin Mary become the law of the land; or a Catholic could ever accept belief in Transubstantiation becoming illegal and punishable. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.

America becoming a Muslim theocratic state just ain't in the cards. It's an irrational fear that is rooted in "Muslims are the boogeyman" rhetoric that took hold after 9/11, in which it was easier to simply hate Muslims without bothering to understand the more nuanced issues of terror in extremist groups; and that failure has allowed us to homebrew our own forms of religious extremism right here in the United States. And while there is no equivalent to the Taliban here in the US, all it would take is the right set of events; because the extremism, the rhetoric, the anger--it's all there. All the ingredients have been there stirring for decades, slowly stewing. And it won't be a Muslim group that takes America hostage, burns the Constitution, and destroys a nearly 300 year experiment in modern democracy; it will instead be a group waving an American flag and singing Amazing Grace.

Jan001 said:

1 Timothy 5:8 And whoever does not provide for relatives, and especially for family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Safety is a basic need of all humans.

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So whose love of their family is more important; mine or yours? Because here's the flipside: The person trying to make a better life for their family is doing just that. And, as you yourself just said, "safety is a basic need of all humans". Here's the question that I hope you ask yourself in the mirror: Why do you recognize the idea of safety as a basic need of all humans, but then not consider this when it comes to others?

When I talk about dehumanizing. This is what I mean. This isn't a problem unique to any person or any one group; the failure toward recognizing the intrinsic and basic humanity of others is, arguably, one of humanity's arch-sins. How else could Cain slay Abel, except that Abel ceased to regard his brother with fraternal affection, as a fellow son of Adam; a fellow image-bearer of the Creator.

As those who call ourselves by the name of Christ, while we are never immune to the deepest and darkest passions of our flesh, ought to at least be able to recognize the evil and wickedness of our passions.

Did not the Apostle himself say, "Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind"? Shouldn't we, who stand in the midst of the world claiming to be the city on a hill, the beacon of truth, who profess to follow He who is greater than every saint, prophet, sage, and philosopher; who has no parallel, for He is the very Son of God, the Divine Word HImself, come down from heaven and made in our likeness by way of the Virgin Mary; the Messiah, the Long-Awaited One. If we call ourselves this, say this, and with every audacity say the truth is in our midst and all ought to see this light, receieve their sight, and come to the waters of Holy Baptism, if nothing else, at least, be honest, consistent, and truthful about right and wrong, and about ourselves in our own struggles?

If salt loses its flavor, what use does it have anymore?

Jan001 said:

If we do not stop what is happening to our country now, Christianity will be outlawed by the globalist one-worlders, communists, or Muslims.

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And if you believe that, then you are spending far too much time listening idealogues and pundits, and not enough time listening to Christ, who speaks to you through His Word and in His Church.

You think that where Hell itself can't prevail that "globalist one-worlders, communits, or Muslims" will succeed? Christ our God said to St. Peter, "On this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it". Do you have so little faith in Christ, in His Church, or in His word?

Have you been so willing to believe the lies of men that you would turn a deaf ear to Christ?

Jan001 said:

If we do not change the trajectory of our country now, in a hundred years, no Christians will be alive to write poetry.

Persecution of Christians in the year 2019:

Link: Countries Where Christianity Is Illegal 2024

Religious freedom is not a given in many parts of the world. According to the Pew Research Center, more than 80% of the world's governments interfered with their citizens' religious worship in some way in 2019.​

Hover over a country on the map and you will find the 2019 status of freedom for Christians in that country.

Since 2019, so-called first world governments used Covid to restrict Christianity, but not strip clubs. Slippery slope is getting much slipperier.

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And the solution to the problem of religious intolerance is not Christian Nationalism. But, and here I do speak of policy and politics, being strongly on the side of the freedom of all people in a republic that doesn't discriminate.

Do you want your religion to dominate, or do you want democracy to flourish? You can't have both; and Christian dominionism is anti-Christ.

So if I have to choose sides, between de-humanizing immigrants and following in the way of antichrist; or confessing our mutual humanity which comes from God then it is a very simple choice I make.

-CryptoLutheran

Adam56 said:

I obey God’s laws and the laws of the government.

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And what does God, in His Royal Law, command? I trust that you are at least somewhat familiar with your Bible, so I hope you should know this one.

-CryptoLutheran

Broad and bland appeals to nationalism, to tribalism, and to mere kinship are not marks of Christianity, but are the antitheses of Christian ethics; which promotes the universality of man--dead to sin and in need of grace. For there is one Church and "Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." - Colossians 3:11

Build your foundation not on sand, but solid rock.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

And what does God, in His Royal Law, command? I trust that you are at least somewhat familiar with your Bible, so I hope you should know this one.

-CryptoLutheran

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2 John 5-6
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

ViaCrucis said:

Broad and bland appeals to nationalism, to tribalism, and to mere kinship are not marks of Christianity, but are the antitheses of Christian ethics; which promotes the universality of man--dead to sin and in need of grace. For there is one Church and "Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." - Colossians 3:11

Build your foundation not on sand, but solid rock.

-CryptoLutheran

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Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you."

Is your family, home, and nation supposed to be a holy place? You can bet your bottom dollar it is.

It's not like they are doing Christian immigration, they are emptying the prisons of South America into North America, some of these guys may profess Christ in name but overwhelmingly they do not follow Him and instead live a life of extreme sin and crime.

Adam56 said:

Matthew 7:6
“Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you."

Is your family, home, and nation supposed to be a holy place? You can bet your bottom dollar it is.

It's not like they are doing Christian immigration, they are emptying the prisons of South America into North America, some of these guys may profess Christ in name but overwhelmingly they do not follow Him and instead live a life of extreme sin and crime.

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Some of these people are merely fleeing failed, warlord dominated states which we helped ruin.