Is all violence against Jesus' teachings?

[Chris†opher Paul]

Othniel-

Should we not have armed forces to protect our countries from aggression?

 

[Othniel]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Interesting.

Weren't there holy warriors though?

Yes and no.

The book of judges is one of the most difficult in the Bible.

Furthermore, we must always remember that we are not under the Old Covenant. We are not "a people" in the worldly sense, who need to remain a nation in a physcial form. The Jews were.

I don't ever recall the term "holy warrior", but there were those who rose up to free Israel from oppression. The Bible says these men were ordained by God to do so. They also lived under the "eye for an eye" covenant, which we do not. We live under the covenant of grace.

I have not the wisdom to go into detailed exposition of the many varieties of people who killed in the name of God in the OT. To me, trying to find reasons inthe OT for allowing violence is trying to avoid the more obvious teachings of the NT.

Yet, if you want a "holy warrior" who is played up by modern Christians, read Judges 13-16. If you are convinced that Samson was a righteous man, then you have your answer.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

 

[Othniel]

Originally posted by s0uljah
Othniel-

Should we not have armed forces to protect our countries from aggression?

I don't know. The more relevant quesion is: Are we a Christian nation? And the answer is "no." Then, the question is, should Christians force their morals through laws upon those who are not Christian? Again, the Biblical answer would seem to be "no." We are told to submit to rulers and authorities, and then to live lives for God, winning others for Christ by our godly lifestyle and love. If our country has an army, so be it.

There is another, even deeper question: Should a Christian in a pagan nation serve in that nation's military?

And friend, again, I am not in a place to claim to know God's anser for you. I believe He says no, but there are many who would disagree with me. There are many things which Christians do, which perhaps they should not. All I can do is quote the Scripture for you. On some issues the only one with an answer for you is going to be God.

Peace to all who seek it,
<><

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

 

[papakapp]

I still think we all agree

Othniel considers defending yourself a slippery slope that can easily lead to violence


sOuljah considers defending yourself imposible to avoid.

I could be way off and incredibly precsumtive putting words in you guys mouths...oh well...

For the record, I think you're both right.

by the way, My mom, with her dying breath quoted Acts 7:56 (without the 'he said' part)
So my original argument stands... If it is your time to die, you will know. Don't presume that because you read about Stephen dying that today is your day.
Although I do look forward to it.

Phil 1:21 To live is Christ but to die is gain.

 

[Othniel]

No doubt about that last part. And no...you're not putting word in my mouth. You did an adequate job, except on one part. That is not how I view violence. What I've been attempting to share is a hollistic Scriptural reading. My views are worthless if they are not in line with the Truth.

Peace, friends,
<><

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Originally posted by papakapp
I still think we all agree
I could be way off and incredibly precsumtive putting words in you guys mouths...oh well...

Nah, its all good. I think the distinction is between aggression and defense. But I totally respect Othniel's beliefs.

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Also, remember that Jesus went into a temple and threw out the merchants who were inside, buying and selling. He said to them, "It is written in the Scriptures, My house is the house of prayer: but you have made it a den of thieves."

 

[Othniel]

Yes, He did. He is God. He can make righteous judgments and carry out the penalty for them. When appears to me or in His Word says that I can carry out His punishments upon people I will obey Him. Until then, the Word of God is clear that violence is not condoned.

Peace,
<><

 

[sbbqb7n16]

I think that too many people read "turn the other cheek" for what it says not what it means. At the time when Jesus made this controversial statement, a slap to the face was more of a putdown than a violent act. Just a a woman slaps a man today, but does not (always) try to fist fight and beat him up. It is just a sign a disgracing someone. So when someone does that to you, turn the other cheek and let them do it again. The point was in context that it was better to be disgraced twice than take the matter to court.

Christ taught to take an attitude of love, but not necessarily passive attitudes about things. God is first and foremost Holy. Holiness cannot stand the sight of evil and therefore must punish it. But God is also love. So He will forgive if they turn back to Him. (2 Chronicles 7:14) But I can see where this is controversial because Isaiah 54:17 says that "'no weapon formed against you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses you. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and this is their vindication from me' declares the Lord."
This kinda goes to show that all attempts against you shall fail anyways so why go to war or use violence in the first place? Oh well the world may never know!

 

[Chris†opher Paul]

Great post sbbqb7n16, but of course we have to be careful not to take matters into our hands. The 9/11 terrorists did that.

I think the key is defense, not aggression.

 

[12volt_man]

Othniel-

A man punches a pacifist in the face.
The pacifist turns the other cheek.
The man punches him in the face, hard.
The pacifist turns the other cheek.
The man punches him in the face, harder.
Repeat this scenario.

At some point you have to defend yourself, don't you?

A tyrant kills innocent women and children.
The pacifist stands idly by and does nothing.
A tyrant invades another country that cannot defend itself.
The pacifist stands idly by and does nothing.
A tyrant kills more women and children and oppresses a people.
The pacifist stands idly by and does nothing.
A tyrant eventually attacks your country, your countrymen, your family and your freedom.
The pacifist stands idly by and does nothing.

At some point you have to have the moral clarity to stand up to tyranny, don't you?

 

[12volt_man]

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