Is all the Bible scripture?

Thunderchild · Feb 9, 2002

The only way to determine whether a translation is accurate, Hervey, is to compare it with the originals from which it was translated.

Unfortunately for your argument, the Koine Greek manuscripts with which I compare the translations are those of Stephen's "Textus Receptus" (1550) - those same manuscripts which the King James translators used. I am not well versed in Koine Greek - so I only refer to it when problems arise which cannot be resolved by recourse to English texts.

Hervey · Feb 9, 2002

Ed:

You can not be telling me, that you believe that the KJV does not have any flaws ?

It is a translation , and it was produced by men.

Error's indeed did creep into the KJV.

But it is still the best source of reference , compared to the other translations !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Thunderchild · Feb 9, 2002

Your statement that there were four others crucified with Christ quite clearly contradicts Luke ...
Luk 23:32-33 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death. And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.

Hervey · Feb 9, 2002

Hi Thunderchild:

You said >

Unfortunately for your argument, the Koine Greek manuscripts with which I compare the translations are those of Stephen's "Textus Receptus" (1550) - those same manuscripts which the King James translators used.

This is correct, but did you know, that the Stephen's "Textus Receptus" is a combination of "all" the manuscripts they took from, and put their findings into 'one' text, which is the Stephen's text ? The manuscripts were many, so the Stephen's text is not the authority either !!

IN Christ, IN Love -- Hervey

edjones · Feb 9, 2002

The KJV is Gods words, Pure and Preserved without any error or contradiction. Is that clear enough?

Show me one error.....if you want to.

What is your Final Authority? or Where is it?
Ed

Use the Bible God uses and Satan hates-AV1611KJV

Hervey · Feb 9, 2002

Hi Thunderchild:

You have been watching too much TV , or just not studying the Word of God enough to come up with the correct answers, as to how many were crucified with Christ !

One verse does not make a very good defence !

Even in this one verse -- it tells us --- that there were "two other "

Why did it not just say "two", why the use of the word "other" ?

I have the answsers because I have been studying the Word of God.

I can take this to the point, that you can not prove me wrong on this ! You may want to try, but it will show that you have not been studying the Word of God to show yourself approved , as a workman rightly dividing the Word of truth !

Shall we continue ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Thunderchild · Feb 9, 2002

Stephen's "Textus Receptus" (1550) does not include the latter day manuscripts that have been unearthed, Hervey. Look at the date... 1550

I am not checking my sources against the Westcott - Hort (1551)with NA variants.

Hervey · Feb 9, 2002

Thunderchild:

Of course the Stephen's text does not include the Latter day manuscripts ! Why would you make such a comment , anyways ?

Who wants the Latter day manuscripts anyways ?

Love IN Christ - Hervey

Thunderchild · Feb 9, 2002

Hervey, with Jesus were two others, malefactors, .... ONE was on the left .... ONE was on the right .... It is not possible that Luke meant that there were four.

Do any of the other gospel accounts say there were four? No...each says only that there were two. Why are you saying that there were four? Quite simply, that is the only possible way to pretend that there is no contradiction in the Bible with regard to the statements made by those who were crucified with Jesus - but the pretence that there were four even then fails on the record of Mark 15:32 They that were crucified with him reviled him It wouldn't matter whether there were 2 or 4 or 400 - according to Mark, they reviled him.

Hervey · Feb 9, 2002

Thunderchild:

Of course it matters if there were two or four !

We are dealing with the Word of God, not what one thinks is correct !

There were "thieves" and "malefactors" - these are two different greek words !

Thieves - "lestes"

Malefactor - "kakourgos"

Matthew 27:44 tells us that the (plural) thieves (2) cast the same in his teeth.

And in Luke 23:39 tells us that "one" of the malefactors which was hanged with him railed on him"

And in Luke 23:40 it tells us that the "other" rebuked the "one" who railed on him. This "one" malefactor who did not rail on him, was the one malefactor which Jesus told would be with him in paradise.

There were four (4) crucified with Jesus !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

lig75 · Feb 9, 2002

c 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

Ac 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Ac 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Ac 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Ac 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Ac 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Ac 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Jo 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Jo 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
I read some other versions of the Holy Bible also, but love the King James best. None can be fully understood without the Holy Spirit to guide one... in fact no one can come unto Salvation in Christ unless the Holy Spirit draw them. They hear the preaching but they must be drawn by the Holy Spirit. It may possibly extend out of the one witnessing, but it is the Spirit that draws them. It is unprofitable to use the Word of God as a sword fight. We need to do the things that edify, not divide. It is the sin in us that we must have put aside, and unless we are forgiven by the Lord Jesus Christ, the sins will keep us weighted down, bickering with one another etc. Good peaceful debate is good and acceptable for Christians, I see that here and like it. Peace and love to all, Gil

filosofer · Feb 9, 2002

There were "thieves" and "malefactors" - these are two different greek words !

Thieves - "lestes"

Malefactor - "kakourgos"

Matthew 27:44 tells us that the (plural) thieves (2) cast the same in his teeth.

And in Luke 23:39 tells us that "one" of the malefactors which was hanged with him railed on him"

And in Luke 23:40 it tells us that the "other" rebuked the "one" who railed on him. This "one" malefactor who did not rail on him, was the one malefactor which Jesus told would be with him in paradise.

There were four (4) crucified with Jesus !

Greetings, Hervey. While you may think that using different words makes your case for "four plus Jesus" who were crucified, there is much more to do than list the passages and words. Here is a possible starting method.

1. Why is it that Matthew uses LHSTAI in 27:44? Does Matthew use that anywhere else? How is each use compared to this one?

2. In Luke's Gospel, why is KAKOURGWN used? How does Luke use that word in the Gospel, and then in Acts, if at all? How do the contexts affect each one?

3. Does Matthew use KAKOURGWN? Where? In relation to context? Does he ever use the two words together? If so, what is the context?

4. Does Luke use LHSTAI? In what contexts? Does Luke use both words? If so, what is the context?

5. Check a Greek concordance to see how these words relate, if they do.

6. Check standard lexicons for uses:

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich-Danker (latest is 3rd ed.), often abbreviated BAGD.

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains, 2 Volumes by Louw and Nida (often referred to as GEL or Louw-Nida)

7. Search how exegetes of the past 1900 years have understood these terms, specifically related to these texts. Are there any who have come to this conclusion? How did they do it? What sources did they use?

Now, after all this, then we can begin to discuss whether there were "two others" or four. BTW, I am not being sarcastic in this. This is a genuine issue for you. I am treating it that way.

lig75 · Feb 9, 2002

There were two crucified with Jesus...

DINGO · Feb 9, 2002

Hi people,

Dont get me wrong, but

I understand the need to rightly divide the word of truth. I also understand the need to be right lest the things you hold in esteem be obliterated, along with a fragile psyche.

Can we cut this to the chase?

1). Is God the impetus behind the autographa?
2). Do you believe in God?

3). If you answer yes to these, then how do you justify your contention that He is unable to keep His creation as He wishes?

4) If you answer no the 1 or 2 then you have nothing to discuss.

Were there 2 or 4 thieves? Does it really matter? The fact remains we are told of two. If they are the only two that were deemed necessary, who are we to judge the authority of Gods chosen penman. We can argue (or you can argue) inerrancy and version preference till the day of glory and you will never change the mind of another. Why!, because first you must convince the other person that their faith has been in vain. Our arguing is self-serving. The gospel changes souls.

I appreciate the depth of the discussion here, the uses of the manuscript evidences, and the deep conviction to remain true the Holy Writ, but this road is a long one and the end thereof is for not. I have been there.

peace Matt.

filosofer · Feb 9, 2002

Were there 2 or 4 thieves? Does it really matter?

Worth asking the question. That answer is, "Yes, it does matter." If this ("it doesn't matter") approach were proposed in any other study of literature/history, we would be laughed out of the room.

God communicates in human languages. We approach that written Word as any other word, and yet as no other word.

Because the Bible is the revealed word of God we have to read and understand what was written. The minute we allow poor or improper methods of "interpreting" we have opened the door for the "text to say anything we want it to say." And that threatens the life-changing Gospel.

lig75 · Feb 9, 2002

Mt 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

Yes all of God's word does matter... but it doesn't mean that any one person is to know it all. The Lord gives each of us what He wants us to have and to use. The 10 commandments are prety simple to understand, even by a child. We Christians believe all the miracles that Jesus did are true, but we do not understand how He does them. We believe that Jesus will take us to Heaven, we believe in His suffering, His crucifixion as the ransom for our souls, in His resurrection as justification for Salvation, and our own resurrection. Don't knock your heads together trying to figure out things too big for you now... You will understand it better by and by. What you do, do in love and to edify, and to lift Jesus up so He can draw lost souls to Himself. For God is Love, Gil

Hervey · Feb 9, 2002

To say that one part of the Word of God is weightier than another part of the Word of God, is ludicrous.

The Word , was with God, and the Word was God - John 1:1

We are to worship God, in Spirit and in truth - John 4:24 - Not untruth !

Was there four (4) crucified with Christ, or two (2) ?

There were four (4), crucified with Christ ! !

If you say two (2), then you would have to alter the words within these records in the gospels, to make it say two (2) , instead of four (4) ! !

Love IN Christ - Hervey

edjones · Feb 9, 2002

None then? or did I miss it?
Ed

Thunderchild · Feb 9, 2002

Perhaps I was careless in my choice of words when I said "it wouldn't matter if there were 2 or 4 or 400, according to Mark, THEY were reviling him. The fact that I used the word, "wouldn't" rather than "doesn't" should have been enough to show that I was treating the concept of 4 criminals, for the sake of argument, as a theoretical possibility.

My intention should have been clear enough - According to Mark, they that were crucified with Jesus reviled him. In Mark's account, there is no margin for assuming that anyone who was crucified with Jesus did NOT revile him. So even assuming that there were two criminals (malefactors) + two robbers - (which is a ridiculuous assumption) - THEY that were crucified with him reviled him.

Yes, Ed Jones you missed it - the quotes being discussed were drawn from the King James. (Not that any other version is materially different)

lig75 · Feb 9, 2002

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Each of the 4 Gospels say two were crucpreach ified with Jesus and I believe it. God is true, why do people try to prove Him otherwise?
The early Church was no denomination. Those crept in unawares and have fought each other all this time. The Lord Himself built His Church and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it. The real Church is still not a denomination.
Do you know you are saved? If not then something is wrong!

Please go to my profile (see top of this to clik it) and see some of my preaching... pretty please. Love in Jesus

Is all the Bible scripture?

Sheep in Wolf's clothing

Well-Known Member

Sheep in Wolf's clothing

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Sheep in Wolf's clothing

Well-Known Member

Sheep in Wolf's clothing

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Member

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Sheep in Wolf's clothing

Active Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency