Is abortion murder?

[cantata]

Well, as adamant as I am against abortion, I have to say that is the best argument FOR abortion, I have ever heard.

Lisa

Thanks!

I don't think of my argument as an argument for abortion. I think of it as an argument for choice. I simply don't see how dying, for a foetus, is such a bad thing; and I can't see how its being human makes its suffering any more important than the suffering of any other being with similar abilities to be aware of its surroundings, experience pain, and so on. Since I am willing to eat meat, and since I am aware of the fact that most of the animals I am willing to eat, when they are slaughtered, are considerably more well-developed and capable of feeling pain than a first- or even a second-trimester foetus, I think it would be inconsistent and hypocritical of me to object to abortion.

I understand that if you regard human life as sacred, or if you regard human beings as having a right to life, your feelings about this will be very different. That's something I can't really argue with you about. Both of those kinds of belief are completely outside my frame of reference. I don't really understand what's meant either by the notion of the sanctity of life, or by the notion of rights. So whenever I come up against those ideas, I have to agree to disagree with people. I appreciate, though, your acceptance that my argument is at least consistent within my worldview.

 

[Lisa0315]

Thanks!

I don't think of my argument as an argument for abortion. I think of it as an argument for choice. I simply don't see how dying, for a foetus, is such a bad thing; and I can't see how its being human makes its suffering any more important than the suffering of any other being with similar abilities to be aware of its surroundings, experience pain, and so on. Since I am willing to eat meat, and since I am aware of the fact that most of the animals I am willing to eat, when they are slaughtered, are considerably more well-developed and capable of feeling pain than a first- or even a second-trimester foetus, I think it would be inconsistent and hypocritical of me to object to abortion.

I understand that if you regard human life as sacred, or if you regard human beings as having a right to life, your feelings about this will be very different. That's something I can't really argue with you about. Both of those kinds of belief are completely outside my frame of reference. I don't really understand what's meant either by the notion of the sanctity of life, or by the notion of rights. So whenever I come up against those ideas, I have to agree to disagree with people. I appreciate, though, your acceptance that my argument is at least consistent within my worldview.

I was just getting ready to ask you about the distinguishment of second and third trimester abortions. So, are you against third trimester, partial birth abortions, then?

Lisa

 

[cantata]

I was just getting ready to ask you about the distinguishment of second and third trimester abortions. So, are you against third trimester, partial birth abortions, then?

Lisa

Well, before I answer your question, I must state that I believe "partial birth abortions" (a term which, by the way, is not recognised by the medical community) are relatively rare. Most women choose to have abortions long before this is necessary; the few third trimester abortions that do occur are usually not elective, but are performed for medical reasons. So they are not a major point of contention as far as I am concerned, although they are frequently raised by anti-abortion campaigners as particularly horrifying.

As to my position on elective third trimester abortions, I would say that I don't know enough about the differences in suffering for mother and foetus between third trimester abortion and giving birth. I am not a doctor. Speaking personally, I think I would probably not have a third trimester abortion unless it was for medical reasons. But on the other hand, I would not want to legislate the issue out of the hands of women, and I suspect that, at least until the pregnancy is extremely late, the suffering of the mother continues to outweigh that of the foetus, and again I feel inclined to leave the decision to her. I think in practice you would find that few women would opt for third trimester abortion. Of course, I fully support research into abortion techniques which make the experience less traumatic for both mother and foetus.

 

[LittleNipper]

Exactly what, if anything, does this diatribe have to do with the discussion at hand?

It has everything with defining morality and a seeming lack of understanding what determinds murder and why.

 

[LittleNipper]

Not a thing... but heres a tip for young players, when you find yourself on the loosing side of a discussion topic, rather than try to address the actual topic and convince people to change their position through reason and evidence based argument, its much easier and much more fun to make some general statements in an inflamatory way that will result in the absolute derailment of the thread.

What thread was that again?

Abortion, where legal, can never be murder.

Whose losing? Certainly not I. I expect to see a bright eternity. Maybe we might equate hell with a kind of abortion. The eternal abortion of souls from GOD who reject HIM ---- though the baby in the womb doesn't reject the mother. The mother rejects the baby.

 

[LightHorseman]

Well, as adamant as I am against abortion, I have to say that is the best argument FOR abortion, I have ever heard.

Lisa

reps for honesty

 

[LightHorseman]

Whose losing? Certainly not I. I expect to see a bright eternity. Maybe we might equate hell with a kind of abortion. The eternal abortion of souls from GOD who reject HIM ---- though the baby in the womb doesn't reject the mother. The mother rejects the baby.

None of which has anything to do with the topic.

 

[LittleNipper]

None of which has anything to do with the topic.

Morality apart from a SUPREME being does not exist ---- only various opinions from various people who happen to hold the power to control at the moment.

 

[CCGirl]

In Canada, there is no abortion law. It is left in the hands of the medical community, and rightly so, IMHO.

Do other people consider this position as a viable option at all?

 

[mattscot]

cruel cruel vain hearts out there that trust in their own delusions and proclaim to know what constitutes a living soul and without flinching would starve and unborn child

 

[Paulos23]

Morality apart from a SUPREME being does not exist ---- only various opinions from various people who happen to hold the power to control at the moment.

Then I feel sorry for you having to make up an authority figure to be good, instead of just being a good human being.

And where in the bible does it say abortion is immoral?

 

[karisma]

Answer yes or no. Did the woman consent to sex? If so, then, she consented to all the inherant risks including pregnancy. Stop making this the fetus' responsibility when it is the parent's responsibility to care for that child.

Think on this: One breath is the only legal distinguishment between citizen and parasite. One breath.

Lisa

It's not relevent. Parents of born children are not required by law to give blood or organs to their dying child. Forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies takes away their rights that other people enjoy. Thus, it's inconsistent and minimizes women.

 

[LightHorseman]

Morality apart from a SUPREME being does not exist ---- only various opinions from various people who happen to hold the power to control at the moment.

Still completely irrelevent to the topic...

 

[Lisa0315]

Then I feel sorry for you having to make up an authority figure to be good, instead of just being a good human being.

And where in the bible does it say abortion is immoral?

In Proverbs, as I have already cited in the other thread, it says that the slaying of innocent blood is one of the seven things that God hates.

Lisa

 

[Paulos23]

In Proverbs, as I have already cited in the other thread, it says that the slaying of innocent blood is one of the seven things that God hates.

Lisa

Fair enough, though is it slaying the innocent if it hasn't been born yet?

 

[Lisa0315]

Fair enough, though is it slaying the innocent if it hasn't been born yet?

Well, I take the Bible fairly literally. Some things, I know are symbolic but other things seem to be very clear. I think it is important that it is the slaying of innocent blood rather than stating man, woman, child, or soul.

To be fair, it could also be argued that since this is in Proverbs, it is a collequillism and is not supposed to be taken literally as in "blood". However, this phrase is used pretty frequently in Scripture and is also prophetic of the slaying of Christ.

I would err on the side of literal interpretation myself. It seems to fit best with the rest of Scripture since there is such a distinguishment between deaths caused in war and eye for eye kind of killing or even the death penalty. I think the keys are *innocent* and *blood*.

Other Scripture to consider are the ones that speak of God forming us in the womb and knowing us from the foundation of the earth. This to me refers to ensoulment. If none of us know exactly what moment ensoulment takes place, again, I would err on the most conservative side possible.

There is the Scripture in which John the Baptist leaps in the womb of Elisabeth with knowledge of God. I believe she was likely in her third trimester but still.

From a Christian perspective, it seems very risky to me to abort at any stage and I am prayerfully trying to consider this from both points of view. I just cannot rationally find any way to justify abortion from Scripture.

Lisa

 

[LightHorseman]

Well, I take the Bible fairly literally. Some things, I know are symbolic but other things seem to be very clear. I think it is important that it is the slaying of innocent blood rather than stating man, woman, child, or soul.

So, um... why does the Bible literally call for abortificient activities so frequently?

 

[Lisa0315]

So, um... why does the Bible literally call for abortificient activities so frequently?

I have heard this argument before but I have forgotten the details. Show me the Scripture, please and then, I will answer the question.

Lisa

 

[LightHorseman]

I have heard this argument before but I have forgotten the details. Show me the Scripture, please and then, I will answer the question.

Lisa

Hosea 9:11-16 Hosea prays for God’s intervention. “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer. Give them, 0 Lord: what wilt thou give? Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts. . .Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.” Clearly Hosea desires that the people of Ephraim can no longer have children. God of course obeys by making all their unborn children miscarry. Is not terminating a pregnancy unnaturally “abortion”?
Numbers 5:11-21 The description of a bizarre, brutal and abusive ritual to be performed on a wife SUSPECTED of adultery. This is considered to be an induced abortion to rid a woman of another man’s child.
Numbers 31:17 (Moses) “Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every women that hath known man by lying with him.” In other words: women that might be pregnant, which clearly is abortion for the fetus.
Hosea 13:16 God promises to dash to pieces the infants of Samaria and the “their women with child shall be ripped up”. Once again this god kills the unborn, including their pregnant mothers.
2 Kings 15:16 God allows the pregnant women of Tappuah (aka Tiphsah) to be “ripped open”. So, you know, seems God isn't quite as against innocent bloodshed in a literal Bible as you may think

 

[WatersMoon110]

In Canada, there is no abortion law. It is left in the hands of the medical community, and rightly so, IMHO.

Do other people consider this position as a viable option at all?

I do think that would have been the most rational option, and so I can see why Canada (a rather rational country, in my opinion) keeps it at that.

However, in the US, I don't think that abortion law could be reverted back to that. I sincerely feel that more regulation, and not less, is the solution to this controversial issue in the US. I think that too many people in the US are of the opinion that all abortion needs to be illegal, and too many people in the US are of the opinion that all abortion needs to be legal; that the only way to solve the issue is through a compromise of better legal regulation of the medical procedure.

Though, I have to say, I often wish I could just move to Canada. My Aunt and Cousin love it there, and I'm jealous of your country with fewer people and less crazy people in charge. *grin*