Is Abortion Murder?

[April Angel]

This is very nicely structured, and I think you may be right: The word 'Autonomous' is perhaps not the right term.

Thank you.

Does the fact that a being is living inside another person's body justify killing it?
It is a good question.

I think that whatever is growing within the body of a person by legal means is (to be blunt) their property.

You own your heart, lungs, kidneys, etc. etc...I believe that since the Z/E/F is growing within the body of a woman, it is in fact her property. We do have the right to destroy that which we own, and since I believe the Z/E/F is the woman's property, I believe that she has the right to destroy it.

The law only agrees with you upto a certain point. There are laws which protect the unborn human from being aborted or otherwise harmed after a certain gestational age. In France, Germany and Italy that point is 12 weeks gestation. In the UK it is 24 weeks gestation. After that gestational age, it does not matter that the fetus is living in someone else's body, it has human rights nevertheless.

In the UK we are trying to lower the age at which the unborn human maybe aborted. Hopefully the law will change so that the rights of unborn human beings will be recognised before the age of 24 weeks.

No, nobody wants to live in a society where you can just kill other people without fear of repercussion, but I don't want to live in a society where it is possible that women are going to be miserable by being forced into a pregnancy that they sincerely do not want. Abortion does not exist to protect women, it exists to protect the rights of the woman and even those of a whole host of people. In a lot of cases I consider it better for the child. I don't want to see women have the right to make choices concerning their own bodies taken away, and people tend to forget that an unwanted pregnancy affects many people beside the woman.

Abortion does too. What about the father and the grandparents? Do they get a say in whether their unborn relative lives or dies? Very often not.

I regret that unwanted pregnancy happens. Nobody would deny that it would be better if there was no NEED for abortion, but the fact is that these things happen and there needs to be options.

There are always options and not all of them need to end in death. Before abortion was legalised 40 years ago, there were many more children who were adopted and went on to live happy and fulfilled lives.

Which brings us to the contraception thing...
Well, we all know that no contraception is foolproof, and accidents happen all the time.

I don't think abortion requires an excuse. There are so many different reasons why women choose this option, and they do not need to excuse themselves for excercising their own rights over their bodies.

Up to a certain point. And then they need to recognise that there is another human person to consider.

 

[Miracle Storm]

Nah, it's not good , but it's not murder. Murder has to be killing someone who came out of the womb. before they come out of the womb, they don't have a soul. the soul is in the lungs, and the lungs don't breath in the soul until the baby is born, thus that is when life begins, with a slap on the babys rear from the doc.

Are you serious?

before they come out of the womb, the don't have a soul.

Then you go on to say

the soul is in the lungs

Right after that

lungs don't breath in the soul until the baby is born

and then

life begins, with a slap on the babys rear from the doc.

Maybe some more research on your part would be helpful.
Just a suggestion.

 

[Ave Maria]

No abortion is not murder because the fetus is not a person. See the links below for more information.

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Personhood.pdf

http://www.rcrc.org/pdf/RCRC_EdSeries_Fetus.pdf

 

[MoNiCa4316]

No sane pro-choicer would deny that they are living humans since conception. They are, but it's about the value of a fetus vs. an autonomous human being.

Forget lung transplant, smoking kills your soul!!!

Hey, I guess people define "being" differently...

I read somewhere that the essence of 'person' or 'being' is relationship..because God is the Trinity. I'm not sure how to explain it. Well in the Bible it says that God knew us even before we were born...so I've always been drawn to the idea that a fetus is a person too.

Do you believe in the soul? If you do, when would you say the soul enters the body?

By the way, "smoking kills your soul"..hahaha

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Good point!

The fetus is a human being. When there is a body and it is human, it is a human being.

The stage which it goes through before beginning to form its body i.e. during the first two weeks after conception, are less important than the later stages. During these early stages anything could happen. The early embryo could divide into two, three or four individuals. Alternatively, it could join with another fertilized egg and become one person with two different sets of DNA. So, I would argue that personhood is less likely at this stage.

However, once it begins to form into a particular being, it becomes more important. Then, at 8 weeks gestation the formed embryo starts to look like an actual baby and is referred to as a fetus. At this stage it has a formed human body.

That's kinda how I see it too.... I would say though that even during the first two weeks it is a being, because even though it doesn't look like a human all the genetic information is already there...it just needs time to develop...By the way, I'll ask you the same question I asked LunarPlexus.. when would you say the soul enters the body? I'm just interested what people think about this.

 

[Ave Maria]

I think I must slightly change my position. The fetus is not a person until viability. This means that partial birth abortion is wrong and should be banned except in cases where the mother's life is at risk.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I think that whatever is growing within the body of a person by legal means is (to be blunt) their property.

You own your heart, lungs, kidneys, etc. etc...I believe that since the Z/E/F is growing within the body of a woman, it is in fact her property. We do have the right to destroy that which we own, and since I believe the Z/E/F is the woman's property, I believe that she has the right to destroy it.

I see what you are saying here...if it is indeed the woman's property, then she does have the right to destroy it. I would argue though that we are not our own, and that our bodies belong to God, who made them...so technically we do not 'own' our heart, lungs, kidneys, or Z/E/Fs. This means that we don't have the right to destroy them. But of course that's based on my beliefs. if your beliefs differ naturally you would come to a different conclusion on abortion.

 

[Ave Maria]

I see what you are saying here...if it is indeed the woman's property, then she does have the right to destroy it. I would argue though that we are not our own, and that our bodies belong to God, who made them...so technically we do not 'own' our heart, lungs, kidneys, or Z/E/Fs. This means that we don't have the right to destroy them. But of course that's based on my beliefs. if your beliefs differ naturally you would come to a different conclusion on abortion.

Based on your logic, one cannot get a heart transplant because their heart belongs to God. Sorry but that is flawed logic.

Yes, our bodies belong to God. However, he as given us free will and the choice to do what we want with our bodies.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Based on your logic, one cannot get a heart transplant because their heart belongs to God. Sorry but that is flawed logic.

Heart transplants are different, because in that case you're not destroying the heart...it's already not working properly.

Yes, our bodies belong to God. However, he as given us free will and the choice to do what we want with our bodies.

Sure, we can commit suicide if we want to. We have free will. But that doesn't mean that there is no right and wrong, or that all choices are right. Think of it this way. A person is standing on top of a building..they have a choice whether or not to jump down. But if they do, they'll die, because they can't reverse gravity. That's how it is with our moral choices. Some are sin and lead to spiritual death, because just like natural laws there are spiritual laws in this world. Some are in accordance with God's will.

So sure we can do anything with our bodies, but that "anything" is divided into 'right' and 'wrong'. And if we are Christians, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit - God Himself. "Therefore glorify God with your body".

God bless.

monica

 

[Ave Maria]

Heart transplants are different, because in that case you're not destroying the heart...it's already not working properly.



Sure, we can commit suicide if we want to. We have free will. But that doesn't mean that there is no right and wrong, or that all choices are right. Think of it this way. A person is standing on top of a building..they have a choice whether or not to jump down. But if they do, they'll die, because they can't reverse gravity. That's how it is with our moral choices. Some are sin and lead to spiritual death, because just like natural laws there are spiritual laws in this world. Some are in accordance with God's will.

So sure we can do anything with our bodies, but that "anything" is divided into 'right' and 'wrong'. And if we are Christians, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit - God Himself. "Therefore glorify God with your body".

God bless.

monica

Yes, and the fetus can be considered to be a parasite on the mother. After all, that's what it really is in a sense.

Of course there is such a thing as right and wrong but still God, gave us free will to do what we want with our bodies. If we want to tattoo our bodies, we can do that. If we want to pierce our bodies, we can do that. If we want to have an abortion, we can do that!

 

[April Angel]

Yes, and the fetus can be considered to be a parasite on the mother. After all, that's what it really is in a sense.

Of course there is such a thing as right and wrong but still God, gave us free will to do what we want with our bodies. If we want to tattoo our bodies, we can do that. If we want to pierce our bodies, we can do that. If we want to have an abortion, we can do that!

God also said: "Thou shalt not kill".

 

[Fantine]

Our Constitution says, "All men are created equal."

But in real life--or even in real murder--that isn't always true.

If a young prostitute working the mean streets in a large city is murdered, the amount of manpower devoted to apprehending her murderer is usually not nearly as great as it would be if she were a young college student on a suburban campus.

And if a suspect is apprehended, a more experienced DA will probably be assigned to cover the murder of the college coed. More press and TV will come to publicize the event.

Sadly, more people will usually mourn.

In the case of abortion, there tends to be two extremes. There are the pro-choicers, who look at the event as regrettable but necessary and give it little thought. Then there are the pro-lifers, who look at the death of a fetus as a more serious type of murder than the murder of the prostitute, the murder of the college coed, or a wartime bombing in which innocent civilians are killed...

So asking whether it's murder or not is superfluous, since murders themselves are valued subjectively in our society.

We can watch a whole village of starving African babies on TV, shake our heads and change the channel.

But we can live next door to a child who needs a kidney transplant and organize a fundraiser to help the family with medical expenses.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Good point

I think we should just try to view all people as God sees them..having value in that they were created by Him and have a purpose for living. Our society tries to tell us the "worth" of someone based on externals...but in the end, everyone has the same worth. The murder of a prostitute is as sad and regrettable as the murder of a college student....about abortion, I think it's just as bad as any other murder. Not better, not worse. Some people try to justify it by saying that the mother is somehow more important because she is "alive"...but the baby is alive too. In the end, every human life is equally precious to God.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Yes, and the fetus can be considered to be a parasite on the mother. After all, that's what it really is in a sense.

I'm not sure where you're going with this...?

Of course there is such a thing as right and wrong but still God, gave us free will to do what we want with our bodies. If we want to tattoo our bodies, we can do that. If we want to pierce our bodies, we can do that. If we want to have an abortion, we can do that!

But tattoos and piercings aren't like abortion at all. In the case of abortion, someone dies. That's a pretty big difference. Technically we "can" get abortions, but that doesn't mean we should. It's better to go by what we should do, not by what we can do...because technically we're given free will to do anything, including being mass murderers. I have the free will to be the next Hitler, but that wouldn't justify my actions. Free will is NOT an excuse for evil, it's only an opportunity to CHOOSE to love God and others, and to participate in His plan. Free will exists to make goodness meaningful and to glorify God. Not so that we would do whatever we want, regardless of the consequences.

And I would still say that our bodies aren't "ours".

 

[Servant222]

One of the biggest problems with pro-abortionists is that they are in denial about the fact that life begins at conception. To try and counter this misconception, ask pro-choicers the following question:

Should parents have the right to abort a foetus based purely on its sex?

Most, especially strong feminists, will indignently say "of course not; that's outrageous!"

But, hey, pro-choice is pro-choice- you either support it or you don't- so if a mother decides to abort purely on the basis of gender, then what business is that of anyone else?

Another question to ask is:

Should parents have the right to discard their foetus a day before it is due to be born?

Again, the answer is usually an outrageous "Of course not!!".

And my answer is similar: abortion is not murder ONLY if you believe that life begins at birth (that is, not at conception). So whether a foetus is one second old or 9 months minus a day old isn't relevant if you believe in pro-choice.

The Chinese have it right: the birthday of a person is measured by when they were conceived, not by when they were born.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I agree

 

[Servant222]

We are rapidly approaching the point where we will have the ability to "design" what type of baby parents can have: blue eyes, brown eyes; blond hair, red hair; free of hereditary diseases or not; maybe even pre-disposed to be smart and/or athletic or not. Some even claim that sexual preference is in the genes (no pun intended)- so what will parents decide?

So we'll have to decide: who is in charge- God or us?

 

[Ave Maria]

God also said: "Thou shalt not kill".

He actually said "Thou shalt not murder." There is a huge difference between killing and murdering. If we were not allowed to kill, we wouldn't have any meat!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

He actually said "Thou shalt not murder." There is a huge difference between killing and murdering. If we were not allowed to kill, we wouldn't have any meat!

Would you say that abortion is killing or murdering?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

We are rapidly approaching the point where we will have the ability to "design" what type of baby parents can have: blue eyes, brown eyes; blond hair, red hair; free of hereditary diseases or not; maybe even pre-disposed to be smart and/or athletic or not. Some even claim that sexual preference is in the genes (no pun intended)- so what will parents decide?

So we'll have to decide: who is in charge- God or us?

I honestly hope that never happens!!