Is abortion better than the alternative?

[gallykid08]

It depends I would never ridicule someone who chooses to abort because their child carries a degenerative & fatal genetic disorder. There are diseases that are completely debilitating, painful and there are not courses of treatment - it should not be a crime to spare a child that.

and although a condition may be tough...you think that it shouldnt be a crime to brutally kill the child before birth. what about sparing the child a brutal death before birth? like it or not...abortion does cause pain to the unborn baby. research has proved that. and just by looking at a picture of aborted babies shows it. it shouldnt be allowed for unborn babies to be killed unmercifully like that. it isnt a mercy to abort a child because it may have spina bifida (which by the way can be fixed BEFORE birth, making the unborn child an actual medical patient), or downs syndrome...or even more severe cases such as tay sachs etc.

all children with disabilities can live good lives when given the chance, no matter how short that life may be.

doctors should be focusing on ways to save the mother and child. and to help children with disabilities. they shouldnt be focusing on killing all the defective children.

the doctor's code of ethics states that they can NOT give harm to the patient...however, did you see that surgery that was done on a child BEFORE he was born to fix spina bifida? he is a believe 5 years old now and doing perfectly fine. and in that case...it proves that an unborn child can be a patient. so for doctors to abort children...it starts to go against that code of ethics.

 

[holyorders]

How would you feel if one day you found out that your daddy was a rapist? How would that make you feel when the other kids at school were talking about thier parents? How would you feel if you knew that your own father was someone who destroyed other people's lives. Id rather be dead

Believe me I have had a very hard life and I still do. My own presance, at a time in my life, caused my mother extreme pain (I won't go into details). It took time but things worked out well. I think you need to understand that no matter how much a person will try, pain cannot really be separated from life. Its far better to be given a chance to overcome the pain/disability of a person (it may be a very slim chance) than to take it away. What you described in your story is really just a extremely late-term self-abortion. Did that person have mercy on himself for killing himself? It takes a real man or woman to be given a very difficult situation in life and to be able to overcome the problem. Any coward can kill as a solution, it takes strength of character to attempt to bring a baby into the world despite great great difficulties.

 

[Seeking...]

and although a condition may be tough...you think that it shouldnt be a crime to brutally kill the child before birth. what about sparing the child a brutal death before birth? like it or not...abortion does cause pain to the unborn baby. research has proved that. and just by looking at a picture of aborted babies shows it. it shouldnt be allowed for unborn babies to be killed unmercifully like that. it isnt a mercy to abort a child because it may have spina bifida (which by the way can be fixed BEFORE birth, making the unborn child an actual medical patient), or downs syndrome...or even more severe cases such as tay sachs etc.

all children with disabilities can live good lives when given the chance, no matter how short that life may be.

doctors should be focusing on ways to save the mother and child. and to help children with disabilities. they shouldnt be focusing on killing all the defective children.

the doctor's code of ethics states that they can NOT give harm to the patient...however, did you see that surgery that was done on a child BEFORE he was born to fix spina bifida? he is a believe 5 years old now and doing perfectly fine. and in that case...it proves that an unborn child can be a patient. so for doctors to abort children...it starts to go against that code of ethics.

Can you understand and accept that whatever your feelings may be - they are simply not everyone's reality?

I specifically stated degenerative and fatal genetic disorders that are completely debilitating, painful and lacking helpful courses of treatment. I'm not talking about Down's Syndrome or physical/neurological disabilities. Visit a couple of families with a 3 year old with Tay Sachs and then tell me how happy the family is - try and compare it to Down's Syndrome. They are apples and oranges from different planets! Not every child has a good life. Some children with certain disorders will never leave the NICU, never open their eyes, never respond to light or touch - except in pain. Again, make the determination for your own life & stay out of other women's wombs.

If you are worried about fetal pain - then maybe we should research ways to anesthetize the fetus before aborting.

 

[Lokisdottir]

Here's an issue that usually gets brought up at some point, but hasn't yet (as far as I can tell):

Wouldn't an aborted fetus go straight to heaven? It hasn't had a chance to sin yet. If so, wouldn't abortion be a good thing? We're basically giving the kid a "go to heaven free" card.

If not, where do they go? Hell? If so, I don't think I need to point out how unfair that is.

 

[Seeking...]

Believe me I have had a very hard life and I still do. My own presance, at a time in my life, caused my mother extreme pain (I won't go into details). It took time but things worked out well. I think you need to understand that no matter how much a person will try, pain cannot really be separated from life. Its far better to be given a chance to overcome the pain/disability of a person (it may be a very slim chance) than to take it away. What you described in your story is really just a extremely late-term self-abortion. Did that person have mercy on himself for killing himself? It takes a real man or woman to be given a very difficult situation in life and to be able to overcome the problem. Any coward can kill as a solution, it takes strength of character to attempt to bring a baby into the world despite great great difficulties.

Your suggestion that either a raped woman who aborts or a child of rape who suicides is less than a real man or woman is pathetic and displays your lack of empathy for and understanding of human beings. There is no single proper way to be a real man or woman. We are all unique beings in this world struggling to make our own path. No two people react or handle situations the same - nor were we designed to. What exactly gives you the right to call someone a coward? Have you lived their life? I don't mean do you share a few details in common - I mean is your life a mirror image of theirs? If you haven't had their every experience, dream, nightmare, hope, joy, and failure then you don't know what they were going through and you have no right or authority to pass judgement on them. It isn't even your job to do and I don't think your God needs your help. Few options in this life are truly easy - except for those watching from the sidelines watching the decisions being made.

 

[holyorders]

The point is to go through life taking the time and doing things that are difficult. The rewards for overcoming great odds are always worth it. Pain and suffering is just a part of life. Do we run from life like cowards? Or do we stand up and fight back? Isn't the real enemy within one another's heart to not to love anymore?

Most atheists still value love. What kind of a person wouldn't?

 

[Chloe Williams]

Here's an issue that usually gets brought up at some point, but hasn't yet (as far as I can tell):

Wouldn't an aborted fetus go straight to heaven? It hasn't had a chance to sin yet.

Yes I believe the baby would go straight to heaven.

If so, wouldn't abortion be a good thing?

No. Just because the baby would go to heaven doesn't justify abortion.

We're basically giving the kid a "go to heaven free" card.

Everyone has a "go to heaven free" card, just some people choose not to accept it.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

 

[Chloe Williams]

Some children with certain disorders will never leave the NICU, never open their eyes, never respond to light or touch - except in pain.

It is true that some babies will never leave the NICU, but that doesn't mean their life still doesn't have a purpose. For example, my sister was in the NICU all of her short five month life, but she still touched a lot of people's lives. She led three people (that I know of) to Christ. One person we didn't even know! We were attempting to e-mail my cousin (to tell him about my sister), got the address mixed up and some man in the military stationed in Germany found God because of my sister. So you see, even if they don't ever leave the hospital, they still have a purpose.

*~*Chloe Williams*~*

 

[Seeking...]

The point is to go through life taking the time and doing things that are difficult. The rewards for overcoming great odds are always worth it. Pain and suffering is just a part of life. Do we run from life like cowards? Or do we stand up and fight back? Isn't the real enemy within one another's heart to not to love anymore?

Most atheists still value love. What kind of a person wouldn't?

But what is your point. Your assumption is that the action taken is easy - but that is not neccesarily so. The choice for many is between those things that are difficult/painful and those things that seem impossible/painful - so don't oversimplify the actual decision being made. Yes pain and suffering are a part of life - you accept what you can and move on - most of us are not interested in volunteering to add a great heaping portion to the load we are already carrying though. That isn't running away - that is making sure you can handle what you already have before you go looking for more.

I don't even undersatand your statement about not loving anymore. You are not in the position to define acts of love for everyone. What you see as being unloving someone else may see as loving - just not a love you approve of or understand. For me it would be an act of love for the child if I were abort a fetus with a fatal, painful and untreatable genetic disorder. For me (personal opinion) it would be selfish to bring a child into this world who would be in constant pain and unable to experience life at all. What right do I have to force a being into this world who will experience none of its joys just so I can hold him and call him mine?

 

[Seeking...]

It is true that some babies will never leave the NICU, but that doesn't mean their life still doesn't have a purpose. For example, my sister was in the NICU all of her short five month life, but she still touched a lot of people's lives. She led three people (that I know of) to Christ. One person we didn't even know! We were attempting to e-mail my cousin (to tell him about my sister), got the address mixed up and some man in the military stationed in Germany found God because of my sister. So you see, even if they don't ever leave the hospital, they still have a purpose.

I'm sorry for the loss of your sister.

You and I see the value of human life differently. I don't care whether a person's life has purpose or not - except to them. In the absence of consciousness and the ability to communicate - I would have to make that call for any life in my womb. If my life consisted of constant pain, unable to communicate with or experience my surroundings except through expressions of pain, and for that be unchangeable would make my life purposeless to me. I would not sentence a child to that so their pain could touch others lives...

 

[FieryKnight]

You already have preconceived unchangeable ideas - THAT is why you are here - to try to recruit for your already declining "culture of death." I didn't need to tell you to peddle your wares somewhere else. Most teens out there already think of the friend they never had, because that person was aborted, or the wife or husband, they may never have, because they were aborted. How many Einsteins, and Salks, and Rosa Parks, and Rembrandts, have been aborted, even if the babies come from poor families - You Cannot say they will grow up to be nothing! What about George Washington Carver, and Harriet Tubman, and Abraham Lincoln (who was born in a log cabin) - God determines the steps of righteous men and women. I was trying to save you the embarassment of this "death rattle" you are making - as you must one day come face to face with the end of the "Right" to kill innocent babies. And if you disagree that you were here to persuade people that it is just fine to suck the brains out of a kid - after you poke it through the back of it's skull, and it jerks from the pain - just look at the percentage of the posting on this thread - you have continually tried to dominate, bully, scare, berade, and belittle, the beliefs and believers who didn't agree with you.

But don't worry, at 17 you can find a new cause - like trying to take away the right to bear arms, or churches tax-exempt status, or maybe manipulate judges - so that it doesn't matter what they people of a state say - one or a handful of judges can overrule it. By the way, I don't know if anyone posted this - but the 2 women who were involved with Roe v. Wade - the law that makes it legal to perform abortions - vehemently disagree with the law and are pro-life instead of pro-death.

i don't even know you, but the difference is - no i wouldn't have wanted your sister to die because of medical complications - because all people have worth because they were made in the image of God , on the other hand - you seem to think that it is just dandy that 30,000,000 (that's 30 million) babies (women and men) have been aborted since the law was passed in 1973. It seems pretty obvious your value of human life.

Nothing man makes lasts forever...not even great evil.

Pardon my French, but Ill peddle where I like. This IS the D&D forum, the appropriate place for debates about such topics as abortion. And I would appreciate it if you refrained from talking to me like Im too young to understand anything about the world. I dont know how old you are nor do I know how much experience you have in this world, but however much it is, it does not grant you the right to speak in a condescending manner to those younger than yourself. I take the time to listen to other's points of view, if I didnt, I wouldnt be here.

No I dont know what its like to have a child of my own, but having been there for close friends and family members, if abortion were illegal I would have lost a sister to a pregnancy death by the way, that I can form conclusions based on what I see and what others tell me. And having to act almost like the father for a close friend's child gave me plenty of insight.

Fantastic, Im happy for the girl and her mother. But in my experience, those two are the exception rather than the rule.

Let me tell you a story, one you may find equally interesting. There was a young man who went to school with me about 3 or 4 years ago. Very nice, very smart and very likeable, just one thing, he had no father. His mother had been raped while she was visiting New York. She didnt have the heart to go in for an abortion and told her son that his father had died in an accident when he was young. This young man's mother was very disturbed, the memories of the incident haunted her every night and she had become dependant on anti-depressants. The young man tried to help his mother, untill one night when she was admitted to the hospital for trying to cut her wrists open, she told him the truth. Her depression was caused by her son who looked so much like his father. He went home so full of guilt that he was doing this to his mother, that he shot himself.

How would you feel if one day you found out that your daddy was a rapist? How would that make you feel when the other kids at school were talking about thier parents? How would you feel if you knew that your own father was someone who destroyed other people's lives. Id rather be dead

 

[Lokisdottir]

Most teens out there already think of the friend they never had, because that person was aborted, or the wife or husband, they may never have, because they were aborted.

I, on the other hand, think of the rapist I will never encounter because he was aborted, or the car thief I will never encounter because he was aborted. It works both ways.

How many Einsteins, and Salks, and Rosa Parks, and Rembrandts, have been aborted, even if the babies come from poor families - You Cannot say they will grow up to be nothing!

How many Hitlers, Pol Pots, Jeffrey Dahmers, and John Wilkes Booths have been aborted? Again, it works both ways.

 

[xhristlives]

who is to know whether a child will grow to become An Albert Einstein or a Hitler?

This automatically brings up the point that Christians should be actively working also as a youth ministry to stop any youngsters from being led astray
NEVER FORGET-THERE IS GOOD IN EVERY ONE OF US- but by making prejudgments we can aggravate and therefore take away that chance for that goodness to develop

 

[Phred]

If Einstein needed a blood transfusion and I was the only person who matched... would you force me to donate? Why should a woman be forced to donate her body, time and future when she doesn't want to? What the child might or might not become is irrelevant.

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[xhristlives]

R u suggesting that your, and everyone elses life is irrelevant-what if that child was you?
Sometimes one small sacrifice (rejecting abortion) can lead to greater rewards (a child who whether disabled etc will love us )

If we don't give them that chance, we are cheating ourselves..

 

[If Not For Grace]

" Why should a woman be forced to donate her body, time and future when she doesn't want to? "


IF that women were to value life, she would realize that Life is the greatest GIFT of ALL, how can she deny LIFE to another person in good conscience once the process has begun.

Even RAPE/Adultery can be turned into a positive with pregnancy.
EXAMPLES:
Haggar---

Many black people today are decended fron non-consentual sex. Had you been a slave would you have wanted a baby by the "white master". Well there are people I am glad are alive today who were decended from that.

There is no case sufficient for abortion...

However, Please know for those of you who have had them, it is not a sin to great to be forgiven. PLEASE if you are pregnant, see an attorney, arrange an ADOPTION...It can be done at no cost to you. (Even your medical expenses can be covered)....

 

[Lokisdottir]

There is no case sufficient for abortion...

What if the mother's life is in danger?

 

[~RENEE~]

It depends I would never ridicule someone who chooses to abort because their child carries a degenerative & fatal genetic disorder. There are diseases that are completely debilitating, painful and there are not courses of treatment - it should not be a crime to spare a child that.

So then just because I was born with spina bifida, arthritis and a bad heart my mother should have killed me:o . I'm grateful even with the pain that my mother allowed me live and did not believe in abortion. I thank God that I'm alive. I can live with this pain I have for 37 Years almost 38. And I don't think that my life is any less important than anyone elses.

 

[Phred]

IF that women were to value life, she would realize that Life is the greatest GIFT of ALL, how can she deny LIFE to another person in good conscience once the process has begun.

I told you how. For the same reasons I might choose not to donate my kidney to someone who will die without it. You're making an argument based upon your version of morality. It applies only to you, not to everyone.

Even RAPE/Adultery can be turned into a positive with pregnancy.
EXAMPLES:
Haggar---

Irrelevant. If the woman doesn't want to donate her blood she has a right not to.

Many black people today are decended fron non-consentual sex. Had you been a slave would you have wanted a baby by the "white master". Well there are people I am glad are alive today who were decended from that.

Irrelevant. The good and bad things people do after they are born has no bearing on a decision one makes about ones own body.

There is no case sufficient for abortion...

Then don't have one.

However, Please know for those of you who have had them, it is not a sin to great to be forgiven. PLEASE if you are pregnant, see an attorney, arrange an ADOPTION...It can be done at no cost to you. (Even your medical expenses can be covered)....

This is an option to those who wish it.

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[Phred]

So then just because I was born with spina bifida, arthritis and a bad heart my mother should have killed me:o . I'm grateful even with the pain that my mother allowed me live and did not believe in abortion. I thank God that I'm alive. I can live with this pain I have for 37 Years almost 38. And I don't think that my life is any less important than anyone elses.

"should have"... no. Could have... yes. I could make a pretty long list as to why you might have been aborted. None of it matters if your mother decided she wanted you. Get it? This isn't about you...

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