Is a creationist a creationist because they feel it makes sense?

[DrkSdBls]

Where did God come from?
As I said before, Occams Razor tells us to favour the simpler solution. Since the solution without God is simpler than the solution with God, the Razor tells us to favour the former. Of course, the latter may be possible, but it is as probable as my atoms spontaneously existing in South Africa.

Although, It isn't exactly true to say that "Without" God is simpler then "With God."

By Excluding God, You eliminate one Variable to the Equation but you forget that by doing so, you change the End Result because there's still an unknown Variable to that equation.

With God: 2 + 3 + ? = 8

Without God: 2 + 3 = 8

Obviously, Something's not right there so you still have to put that "?" back into the Equation before you can find the Missing Figure. Just because one person's answer to the "?" is (8 - 1 * 4 + 5 / 11) doesn't mean that it simpler just to exclude the "?" from Equation.

"a few acids in a pool of chemicals = Life"

Is certainly not the full Equation.

"a few acids in a pool of chemicals + a deity = Life"

May be postualating a Random Figure to account for the unknown Variable, but it's certainly not making the Equation any more Complex then it already is.


The real problem of Supposing a Factor such as God as a possible answer to the Missing Variable is that one can not calculate the Value of God to make the Equation Make sense. That's because, to do so, either one would first have to calculate the Equation that Sums up God (which is an Impossible to Solve Equation itself) or we would have to know the Sum the Universe Entirely to Reverse Calculate where in the Equation that God fits before we can Extrapulate God's Sum Total.

(Forgive me, it's been many years since Math Class so I can't remember how to express my Math Terminology correctly. Hope you get my point.)

 

[Oncedeceived]

My dear, if I had conclusive proof that your god existed, I would still be ethically opposed to it. I know Hitler existed (for given values of 'know'), yet I am not inexplicably infatuated with the man.

That is your choice. But you must admit that your feelings for God has nothing to do with the fact that He exists (my claim).

Either He is or is not and feelings for Him or against Him have nothing to say as to truth. Don't you agree?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Although, It isn't exactly true to say that "Without" God is simpler then "With God."

The latter has unneccesary entities in it's explanation. Therefore, from a purely parsimonious view, the former is simple, and hence more likely to be true.
Of course, this is all meta-theory.

By Excluding God, You eliminate one Variable to the Equation but you forget that by doing so, you change the End Result because there's still an unknown Variable to that equation.

With God: 2 + 3 + ? = 8

Without God: 2 + 3 = 8[/quote]
As a mathematician, I find your analogies less than accurate.

Obviously, Something's not right there so you still have to put that "?" back into the Equation before you can find the Missing Figure. Just because one person's answer to the "?" is (8 - 1 * 4 + 5 / 11) doesn't mean that it simpler just to exclude the "?" from Equation.
Is certainly not the full Equation.

First, it is grossly ignorant to equate this with a mathematical equation. Second, even if it could be analogised in such a way, we do not even have the 'full equation'! We have, at most, f(x) = g(y).

May be postualating a Random Figure to account for the unknown Variable, but it's certainly not making the Equation any more Complex then it already is.

Capitalising key words does not make your case any more substantiated. You have yet to demonstrate how this 'unknown variable' is known to exist.

The real problem of Supposing a Factor such as God as a possible answer to the Missing Variable is that one can not calculate the Value of God to make the Equation Make sense. That's because, to do so, either one would first have to calculate the Equation that Sums up God (which is an Impossible to Solve Equation itself) or we would have to know the Sum the Universe Entirely to Reverse Calculate where in the Equation that God fits before we can Extrapulate God's Sum Total.

(Forgive me, it's been many years since Math Class so I can't remember how to express my Math Terminology correctly. Hope you get my point.)

Your terminology is the least of your problems here.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That is your choice. But you must admit that your feelings for God has nothing to do with the fact that He exists (my claim).

I conceded this in my last post:
f I had conclusive proof that your god existed, I would still be ethically opposed to it.
That is, my feelings towards it are unaffected by the proof, or absence thereof, of it's existance.

Either He is or is not and feelings for Him or against Him have nothing to say as to truth. Don't you agree?

I do not understand the statement. Could you rephrase?

 

[Oncedeceived]

I conceded this in my last post:
f I had conclusive proof that your god existed, I would still be ethically opposed to it.
That is, my feelings towards it are unaffected by the proof, or absence thereof, of it's existance.


I do not understand the statement. Could you rephrase?

It doesn't matter because you conceded to the point that I was making.


This is really a very important point as well. There are many people who feel this way. In the end they will be able to tell God just how they feel about His actions.

 

[DrkSdBls]

The latter has unneccesary entities in it's explanation. Therefore, from a purely parsimonious view, the former is simple, and hence more likely to be true.
Of course, this is all meta-theory.

Of course, It's Meta-Theory. That's kind of why I took the Liberty with it as I had.

But, as for as such entities being "Unnessacary," you'd first have to prove that such entities are truely Unnessacary before making such an Assertion.

Just because you can reasonably conclude that the Universe could have Formed, as with all Life within it, all on it's own, that doesn't mean that that is how it did happen nor even if it's the most likely possibility.

I'm not saying It didn't nor am I saying that it Did. But you don't yet know exactly what is required for The formation of the Unverse or for Life so to say that God is not required is more of a Belief then a Fact.

As a mathematician, I find your analogies less than accurate.

As a non-mathematician, I don't doubt it.

But hey, you're the one who like's things simple.

First, it is grossly ignorant to equate this with a mathematical equation.

Hey. I had a Thought so I ran with it. I was hoping it would have came out a little better then it did. Forgive me if I don't have full Knowledge of a topic I'm talking about but I couldn't just let the thought Slide. The Only way to keep the Mind in Working order is to Excersize it, even if that does mean I'm wrong. I have no fear of Failing.

Second, even if it could be analogised in such a way, we do not even have the 'full equation'! We have, at most, f(x) = g(y).

Which is kind of my point. We know that there is an Equation. We don't know How long it is, what it's composed of, or even if it uses the same Math as we do but part of the whole adventure of life is to discover these things; To learn things we never knew that we never Knew!

Capitalising key words does not make your case any more substantiated.

Wasn't trying to. I do that Naturally when I type. Bad Habit I have. I think it happens everything time I stop on a word thinking of how I'm going to finish the Sentence (or, most often, when I have to think about how a word is spelled.)

You have yet to demonstrate how this 'unknown variable' is known to exist.

Deductive Reasoning. Obviously a pool of Chemicals can't spontaniously create Life without a "Yet to be Explained Force" (e.g. Unknown Variable) or else we'd be seeing it everyday (And that Peanut Butter Guy would be more Crediability.) There is most certainly an Unkown Varible (or in all likelyhood, several of them) that cause the building blocks of Life to form in a Pool of Chemicals. Just because it has yet to be observed doesn't mean that it probably doesn't exist.

Your terminology is the least of your problems here.

Ouch! Harsh! But aren't you taking this a little too personally? It's not like I was trying to Mock you or something.

 

[automan]

He wants to make sure that you have a choice. He wants us to love Him on our own terms. If there was no way around it and you knew God existed whether you wanted to or not you would have to do as He said...He's God. But if you do what God wants and do so based on your own experiences with Him, you can love Him because of Him and not that He is God and you must worship Him.

Where did you get this idea from?
as the man said, more than half of the people who live on this planet have never heard of Jesus or Christianity,
if you had been born one of them you would believe something completely different,
so how can you be so sure you are praying to the right God?
you were born lucky I suppose, you could have been born a Muslim and never even
thought about Jesus being your saviour and dying on the cross, you could have been on your knees five times
a day facing Mecca and as a woman had very few rights at all, you were just lucky.

It's sad when religion comes down to the luck of the draw, I think if it was so important it would not be so hit or miss,
but it's always been so and I suppose it always will, they will never know which is the right one to follow because no one comes back from the dead to let them know.

 

[Oncedeceived]

S

The latter has unneccesary entities in it's explanation. Therefore, from a purely parsimonious view, the former is simple, and hence more likely to be true.
Of course, this is all meta-theory.




With God: 2 + 3 + ? = 8

Without God: 2 + 3 = 8

As a mathematician, I find your analogies less than accurate.


First, it is grossly ignorant to equate this with a mathematical equation. Second, even if it could be analogised in such a way, we do not even have the 'full equation'! We have, at most, f(x) = g(y).


Capitalising key words does not make your case any more substantiated. You have yet to demonstrate how this 'unknown variable' is known to exist.


Your terminology is the least of your problems here.

Did you feel this was polite? I know that sometimes we forget to do as we say others should do, so just a kind reminder.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Where did you get this idea from?
as the man said, more than half of the people who live on this planet have never heard of Jesus or Christianity,
if you had been born one of them you would think something completely different,
so how can you be so sure you are praying to the right God?
you were born lucky I suppose, you could have been born a Muslim and never even
thought about Jesus being your saviour and dying on the cross, you could have been on your knees five times
a day facing Mecca and as a woman had very few rights at all, you were just lucky.

Most Muslims know very well that Jesus according to Christianity is the Savior and know the gospel. There are many Muslims that have converted in fact, not that that makes it true but it is possible for them to make their own decisions. That being said, many have lost their lives for doing so because it is a serious thing to do. They usually lose everything they have and many their lives for doing it.

It's sad when religion comes down to the luck of the draw, I think if it was so important it would not be so hit or miss,
but it's always been so and I suppose it always will, they will never know which is the right one to follow because no one comes back from the dead to let them know.

Every person has a mind in which to evaluate their beliefs and opinions. Each person has the ability to make a decision based on information available. That includes those of other religions. I researched other religions, the same is true of those who follow Allah.

 

[arensb]

He wants to make sure that you have a choice. He wants us to love Him on our own terms. If there was no way around it and you knew God existed whether you wanted to or not you would have to do as He said...He's God.

Again, Satan is said to have irrefutable proof (FSVO "proof") of God's existence, and was still able to rebel against him, and not love him.

Are you saying that we have less free will than Satan does?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Again, Satan is said to have irrefutable proof (FSVO "proof") of God's existence, and was still able to rebel against him, and not love him.

As we have seen in this thread, people have said that they feel God is immoral or evil and would not worship Him even if they knew for sure He existed. That is free will.

As far as Satan not loving God we can't say for sure, he just loves himself more.

Are you saying that we have less free will than Satan does?

Nope.

 

[automan]

Every person has a mind in which to evaluate their beliefs and opinions. Each person has the ability to make a decision based on information available. That includes those of other religions. I researched other religions, the same is true of those who follow Allah.

Are you saying that people think about their religion to such an extent that if another religion seems more relevant they would change,
I think not, most people are brought up to believe a particular one and they stick with it through thick and thin,
if they thought about things a creationists would see sense and change, being knocked back every time they open their mouth doesn't change their minds so thinking about it certainly won't.

You are never going to change your mind about your religion, come hell or high water, you will be what you are until the day you die and nothing or nobody will ever change your mind, peoples ideas might change but the bible will still be the same, and so will you.

Have you ever wondered why most Mormons are from Salt Lake City? and most Muslims are from the middle east?
and most creationists are from America? I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with indoctrination, these people have all decided to be what they are for themselves.
The fact that they happened to be brought up in these places and decided to adopt the religions of that area was completely by chance.

 

[arensb]

As we have seen in this thread, people have said that they feel God is immoral or evil and would not worship Him even if they knew for sure He existed. That is free will.

If you think they're right, then that contradicts your assertion that if God showed himself, we would have no choice but to love and obey him.

If you think they're wrong, then it's not clear why you bring them up.

As far as Satan not loving God we can't say for sure, he just loves himself more.

Does Satan love God the way God wants to be loved? If not, and since you say humans have at least as much free will as Satan, then God can show himself without violating our free will to refuse to love, obey, and worship him. So why doesn't he show himself?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Are you saying that people think about their religion to such an extent that if another religion seems more relevant they would change,
I think not, most people are brought up to believe a particular one and they stick with it through thick and thin,
if they thought about things a creationists would see sense and change, being knocked back every time they open their mouth doesn't change their minds so thinking about it certainly won't.

Yes, if people look for the truth they will find it.

I am a Creationist and so far your arguments have not knocked me down so your statement is untrue. Not only with me but others as well.

You are never going to change your mind about your religion, come hell or high water, you will be what you are until the day you die and nothing or nobody will ever change your mind, peoples ideas might change but the bible will still be the same, and so will you.

Of course, I know that God is real. Why would I change my mind? That being said, I change my mind about a great deal of things as well as I am sure you do. I was not a Christian by birth (at least humanly) and came to my "religion" by God's hand. It did not immediately bring me to Christianity either.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Have you ever wondered why most Mormons are from Salt Lake City? and most Muslims are from the middle east?
and most creationists are from America? I can assure you it has absolutely nothing to do with indoctrination, these people have all decided to be what they are for themselves.
The fact that they happened to be brought up in these places and decided to adopt the religions of that area was completely by chance.

By chance? That goes against what you are claiming doesn't it?

 

[Oncedeceived]

If you think they're right, then that contradicts your assertion that if God showed himself, we would have no choice but to love and obey him.

No, I said that you would have no choice but to know He exists and obey but you would not love Him the way you would if you were not forced to. In fact, it is doubtful that you would love Him at all at that point.

If you think they're wrong, then it's not clear why you bring them up.

I'm not clear with what your problem is with this?

Does Satan love God the way God wants to be loved? If not, and since you say humans have at least as much free will as Satan, then God can show himself without violating our free will to refuse to love, obey, and worship him. So why doesn't he show himself?

WE have free will now and so does Satan but when the Bible prophecies are fulfilled that will not be the case. Satan will not have any free will at all.

 

[WatersMoon110]

I know He exists from many things in my life, but God leaves an open door so that anyone can walk away as well. As you have heard on this forum alone, many people who once believed they had experiences that were from God only later when doubts crept in they explained it all away. It is a choice.

I could give you all the same experiences/evidences in my life but without you being the one living them and experiencing them it would be rather empty.

I think the real problem is that you have personal evidence that the Christian God exists, but such evidence does nothing to convince anyone but you (and other who believe the same as you) about the existance of the Christian God.

Just about anyone who believes in a deity (or deities) has personal evidence of that deity's (or those deities') existance. But, as you said, others would not take such personal evidence as proof of the existance of that deity (or those deities) because they have not lived the life of that person.

But you can't very well expect others to take your word that the Christian God exists, even though your personal experiences have led you to know of (believe in) His existance. Anymore than you would take my personal evidence of my deity to be proof of my deity's existance.

Remember, reality (for you) is what your brain interprets it to be. Because you see the Work of God in, say, a sunset or in the smiling faces of your children (just examples - I don't mean to presume that you do, in fact, feel this way), does not mean that others would, or even could see things that way.

 

[TinkaBella]

Every person has a mind in which to evaluate their beliefs and opinions. Each person has the ability to make a decision based on information available. That includes those of other religions. I researched other religions, the same is true of those who follow Allah.

You know, for those of us on this forum it's hard to realize and remember that most of humanity never gives much thought to their religion, much less researching every one out there before making their choice.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Please take my word for it, there is God and He is the Christian God; and my word is as good as any one else's.

See, this is almost silly. Since many people in this thread do not believe in the existance of the Christian God, they very well cannot take your word for His existance.

It would be like an atheist telling you to "take their word" that the Christian God doesn't exist. You wouldn't believe them, because you already believe that the Christian God exists.

 

[arensb]

No, I said that you would have no choice but to know He exists

This doesn't seem like a bad thing.

and obey

And yet Satan managed to disobey God, didn't he?

As did Adam and Eve, two other characters with irrefutable evidence of God's existence.

but you would not love Him the way you would if you were not forced to.

Are you now saying that if I knew for sure that God existed, I would be forced to love him? Why, exactly?

In fact, it is doubtful that you would love Him at all at that point.
[...]
I'm not clear with what your problem is with this?

You've said that the reason God hides is that if he were to show himself, we'd have no choice but to love and obey him. But I've just mentioned three Bible characters who knew God intimately and still disobeyed him.

Oh, and I might add the entire Hebrew nation: they follow Moses in the desert, where God manifests himself the whole time as a pillar of smoke by day, and a tower of fire by night; he sends them manna; Uzzah gets killed for touching the ark of the covenant; and so on. They certainly had much better grounds for believing in God than we do. Yet as soon as Moses goes up the mountain, they break the first and second commandments and start worshiping a golden calf.

And what about Judas Iscariot? What about the Pharisees, the Romans, and anyone else involved in Jesus' crucifixion?

We're up to, what, 15,000 or so people in the Bible who knew for a fact that God existed, yet went against him anyway. I think you need to find yourself a new argument.