A) Please provide one verse that says there is not a pretribulation rapture.
B) I have provided multiple verses that show there is a pre tribulation rapture. If you take these verses and apply deductive reasoning you should be able to arrive at the correct conclusion, if you so choose.
C) Jesus tells us that we will not know when he will come. He will come in a hour that we think not. I believe Him.
Are you expecting Him to make that statement and then provide you with a scripture of exactly when He is coming.
Starting in Rev 5 we see 24 elders and the throne. They say they are redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
That has to mean He is coming more than once. He is coming Pre Trib and then He is coming immediately after the tribulation, Pre wrath.
In 1 Thes 4 he says those that are asleep He will bring with Him. They will rise again.......likely on a harvest feast. Jesus will bring them with Him in the clouds. When the pretribulation rapture occurs those that are alive will be caught up......with those in the clouds........to meet the Lord in the air. At this point both the barley and wheat harvest would have occurred.
1 Thes 4
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The Church will be gone pretrib as proven in Rev 5.
The 144,000 that are first fruits are a guarantee of a harvest.
We can see the Matt 24 event "immediately after the tribulation" occurring in Rev 6.
This is the fall fruit harvest. The righteous are gathered in the clouds. The unrighteous go through the wrath of God.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Salvation comes to the Gentiles pretrib.
Then the eyes of 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth are opened.
They go through the tribulation, but not the wrath of God.
The fall fruit harvest begins at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. Summer is near when the pretribulation rapture occurs.
Hi claninja,
Actually there is a scripture, Acts 3: 20 & 21.
`God.....may send Jesus Christ.....who heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)
Marilyn.
Daniel's Vision is essentially linear in time,
the heights of the various body sections of the statue correspond to almost exactly analogous amounts of time
all points to the "little horn" = Diocletian, "rock" ushering in Millennium = Church victory under Constantine in 312 AD
In another thread, people were claiming the 4th Beast is modern times, which would require the following:
insofar as "Gog & Magog" are non-faithful, non-believing, non-Chosen-by-God-in-heaven "non-spiritual-Israel" so-called "gentiles"... then maybe i guess so
but the "gentiles" of the Statue were bowled over by the Rock of Christ's Church in the 3rd-4th centuries AD
Christianity governed society for the next thousand years... until the conquest of Constantinople, Reformation & Renaissance (which explicitly sought to resurrect Classical Greco-Roman paganism, through Science, which is why we gave pagan names to all newly discovered planets, e.g. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto)
Hi marilyn,
The scripture you quoted (acts 3:20-21) no where mentions believers being caught up to God prior to the tribulation.
It only mentions heaven receiving Christ until the times of restoration.
That's correct.Hi Erik,
If the Gentile world rulers were all judged and dealt with by God, then we wouldn`t see another on the horizon.
Marilyn.
Hi marilyn,
The scripture you quoted (acts 3:20-21) no where mentions believers being caught up to God prior to the tribulation.
It only mentions heaven receiving Christ until the times of restoration.
That is adding a LOT of presumptions to the text in order to make it fit.Hi claninja,
It actually shows that Christ will leave the Father`s throne, (being sent) come for the Body of Christ, at the beginning of the times of the restoration of all things. From there we need to see what the old testament prophets spoke of regarding the restoration of all things.
The first restoration of all things is the worthy rulership in the third heaven.
`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit at my right hand til I make your enemies your footstool." The Lord shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!` (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)
Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ will have His `own throne` (authority and power) and begin ruling over His enemies and the overcomers will be with Him.
` To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with me on MY THRONE, as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)
Marilyn.
That's correct.
I know this is directed towards Erik, but I don't read in Scripture another judgement against those that killed the saints and Jesus. That's all behind us (and was AFTER His grace and salvation came in).
That is adding a LOT of presumptions to the text in order to make it fit.
Not "we". I'm not.Hi mkgal,
I actually meant that we are seeing another world ruler emerging. Sorry if it came over the other way.
Marilyn.
I agree - but what you posted was YOUR interpretation, not Scripture (IOW....you added a LOT of commentary to what's actually there in the text).Hi mkgal,
What the scripture tells us is the timing, the details are in God`s word regarding this most important topic.
Marilyn.
Not "we". I'm not.
I still see God as reigning and in control of this world (and believe He will continue to reign forever). Even though it may not appear that way, because of humanity's sin, He brings "shalom to the chaos" as Ray Vander Laan puts it. He has it worked out, I believe.
I agree - but what you posted was YOUR interpretation, not Scripture (IOW....you added a LOT of commentary to what's actually there in the text).
First, the 10 Kings come after. The 7 heads plus the body which is an eighth of the 7.I I would argue the kingdom was given to the saints when Jerusalem, and not diolcetian, was destroyed, based on what Jesus said.
Matthew 21:43-44 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”e
Daniel states the kingdom would be given to the saints when the dominion was taken away from the little horn.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment, and his dominion shall be taken away,
to be consumed and destroyed to the end.And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’c
The author of hebrews explicitly states the saints were receiving the kingdom in the 1st century.
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe
I also disagree with the diocletian being the 11th horn, because the kingdom doesn't turn from a rock to a mountain based on political power like constantine, but by the spreading of the power of the gospel.
Additionally, daniel is clear that 10 kings would come up from the 4th beast. Is it purely coincedence that there were 10 kings leading up to the fall of Jerusalem. Including 3 kings that abruptly fell during the jewish roman war (galba, otho, vitellius)?
It actually shows that Christ will leave the Father`s throne, (being sent) come for the Body of Christ, at the beginning of the times of the restoration of all things.
The first restoration of all things is the worthy rulership in the third heaven.
`The Lord (Father) said to my Lord (Jesus), "Sit at my right hand til I make your enemies your footstool." The Lord shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!` (Ps. 110: 1 & 2)
Thus we know that the Lord Jesus Christ will have His `own throne` (authority and power) and begin ruling over His enemies and the overcomers will be with Him.
First, the 10 Kings come after. The 7 heads plus the body which is an eighth of the 7.
The 7 heads were
Caesar. Augustus. Tiberius.
Caligula. Claudius. NERO 666
Galba Otho...
Jewish war resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified, AND the demise of the Julius Caesar Claudian Dynasty of emperors descended from Julius Caesar who is government had authorized the crucifixion.
After the dust settles, then the 10 additional Kings each rule for one hour. After 10 hours. The 11th King arises in the 11th hour. That's almost half of a biblical day. Arguably most of 400-500 years. If one biblical day equals 1000 years.
So we need to look centuries into the future from the first century.
fits the bill as the physical embodiment. Of Christ. Victory.
As for receiving the Kingdom in the first century. Paul may have said that they were receiving the Kingdom but I doubt he said they had already received past tense the Kingdom?
In any event, the Kingdom is not the same as the Millennium. The Kingdom came with Christ the Millennium of the Kingdom in power came with the Council of Nicea. Demonium is a stage or phase. Or age. Or era or epok of the Kingdom. It's not the whole entire Kingdom itself.
Actually God is bringing the Nations together for judgement against the great City/Harlot, 1st century Jerusalem........Hi mkgal,
Ok, however we wont have long to see it emerge. Yes I also see that God is reigning and in control, however I see that He is bringing the rebellious nations together for judgment.
Marilyn.
Good post...............I have a thread on those 10 kings if you and or others are interested:Possible interpretation
I agree
Scripture doesn't say the 10 kings each rule for 1 hour as in consecutively (10 hours). Scripture simply states that the 10 horns are 10 kings that rule for 1 hour WITH the beast, so that they have one mind.
Revelation 17:12-13 the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.
The purpose of the 10 horns giving their authority to the beast in order to have one mind, is divinely planned by God in order to carry out his will: to destroy the woman/great city/Babylon the great.
Revelation 17:16-18 And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the prostitute. They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out HIS purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
As we can see, it is a "single hour" in which judgment falls on the great city/the woman/Babylon. Thus, I would argue this 1 hour is the same as the 1 hour that the 10 horns given their authority to the beast to become one mind.
Revelation 18:10 They will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, “Alas! Alas! You great city,
you mighty city, Babylon! For in a single hour your judgment has come.”
Revelation 18:19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, crying out,
“Alas, alas, for the great city where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!
For in a single hour she has been laid waste.
Right after the woman/great city/Babylon is destroyed, a multitude in heaven rejoice that God has avenged the blood of his servants. Then multitude rejoices that the marriage of Lamb has come and the Bride has been made ready.
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints,
and of all who have been slain on earth.”
Revelation 19:1-2 After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality,
and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.
Revelation 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Using scripture to interpret scripture, we can see that this event (beast with 10 horns destroying the woman/Babylon/great city) is, in fact, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. For Jesus stated that 1st century Jerusalem (this generation) would be responsible for all the righteous blood shed. Additionally, Jesus also stated that the wedding feast would occur after the original invited guests, who rejected the invite, were destroyed.
Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 22:7-9 The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.
In regards to revelation 17 to the first half of 19, I would disagree for reasons stated above.
I disagree. I believe the types are found prior to Christ. Christ is the full embodiment (anti-type) of the types of the OT. I don't believe there is a future "type" of Christ, nor does scripture teach of a future "type" of Christ. Everything prior to Christ was the shadow. Now, Christ is the ever present reality.
Notice transferred is past tense. If you belong to his son, you belong to his kingdom.
Colossian 1:13 has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son.
Thus the time came when the saints were receiving the kingdom to be co heirs with Christ. Receiving is present tense in this passage
Hebrews 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.
Hebrews is dated as being written just before the Jewish Roman war, as the temple still stood. Thus, it would have been near for the kingdom being taken away from Israel and given to the saints.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.
Daniel 7:26-27 But the court shall sit in judgment,and his dominion shall be taken away, to be consumed and destroyed to the end. And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High;
I agree that the kingdom came with Christ. I disagree that it would come in power centuries later, for Jesus specifically states it would come with power during the generation of the 12 disciples
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”
I was looking at the 10 kings w/o a kingdom in Revelation 17 and something just stuck out a me.
I then remembered the Apostles asking Jesus about restoring the kingdom of Israel to them.
The northern house/kingdom/nation of Israel was divorced by God and
that left Judah, Benjamin and the priestly tribe of Levi, forming the southern house/nation/kingdom of Judah.
Before I go any further, would anyone like to discuss this view of the 10 kings being 10 tribes of Israel [as far fetched as it may be]?
Acts 1:
6 Then they gathered around Him and asked Him, “Lord! are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.
Revelation 17:12
And the ten horns which you perceived are ten Kings, who any a Kingdom not as yet received,
but authority as Kings one hour they are obtaining with the beast,
Jeremiah 3:8
She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce.
Yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot/harlot.
Keep the context in mind of Acts. Here's some background for you - and the context:
Hi claninja,
Actually there is a scripture, Acts 3: 20 & 21.
`God.....may send Jesus Christ.....who heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.` (Acts 3: 20 & 21)
Marilyn.
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