Irresistible grace?

[orthedoxy]

When a Christian sin isn't that resisting Gods will? Isn’t that resistible grace?
When the Holy Spirit tells believers don’t watch a certain movie but we do anyway isn't that resisting the Holy Spirit?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

When a Christian sin isn't that resisting Gods will? Isn’t that resistible grace?
When the Holy Spirit tells believers don’t watch a certain movie but we do anyway isn't that resisting the Holy Spirit?

Greeting Orthodoxy,

From your question it is clear that you don't understand what is meant by the term irresistible grace in Reformed circles.


Irresistible grace, in this context, has to do with salvation. What is meant is that those who are (from before the foundation of the world) elect unto eternal life will not ultimately resist the call of the Holy Spirit to come to Christ, because the Holy Spirit will give them a new heart, then they willingly turn to Christ in repentance and faith.

The term Irresistible Grace is not about our daily sins. This term came about from the Council of Dort’s response to the Remonstrance (or the Five point’s of Arminianism). This was a discussion of soteriology and must be kept in that context.


Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[Imblessed]

I think that about covers it.....

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

When a Christian sin isn't that resisting Gods will? Isn’t that resistible grace?
When the Holy Spirit tells believers don’t watch a certain movie but we do anyway isn't that resisting the Holy Spirit?

Good morning,

In the context of sanctification, I do believe that such things are resisting the Holy Spirit. I grieves me that I still sometimes resist God telling me through His Spirit that what I am doing or thinking is contrary to God's law. Just this Saturday I amused myself all day long rather than work on my statistics homework. Thank you for your open minded question.

 

[orthedoxy]

Thank you for your answers
when a Calvinist preaches to a nonbeliever is that the Holy Spirit doing the work?
When a nonbeliver rejects your preaching isn't he resisting the Holy Spirit?

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Thank you for your answers
when a Calvinist preaches to a nonbeliever is that the Holy Spirit doing the work?
When a nonbeliver rejects your preaching isn't he resisting the Holy Spirit?

When anyone preaches to a nonbeliever, God must regenerate the person through the Holy Spirit before the person can believe the Gospel.

When a nonbeliever rejects the free offer of the Gospel, he is not resisting the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not at work in the nonbeliever.

Basically, when God works in a person to believe the Gospel, He never fails. We believe that the act of salvation is entirely the Lord's doing. It comes not from the will of man, but the will of God. (John 1:13).

 

[ruby_redeemed]

When a Christian sin isn't that resisting Gods will? Isn’t that resistible grace?
When the Holy Spirit tells believers don’t watch a certain movie but we do anyway isn't that resisting the Holy Spirit?

There are two wills. God’s Moral will. An example of this would be that He doesn’t want anyone to sin, but we still do. Then there is God’s Sovereign Will. An example would be what happens is because God allowed it and you can’t change it.

 

[BBAS 64]

When anyone preaches to a nonbeliever, God must regenerate the person through the Holy Spirit before the person can believe the Gospel.

When a nonbeliever rejects the free offer of the Gospel, he is not resisting the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not at work in the nonbeliever.

Basically, when God works in a person to believe the Gospel, He never fails. We believe that the act of salvation is entirely the Lord's doing. It comes not from the will of man, but the will of God. (John 1:13).

Well said Wilfred, and all the people yell

Peace to u,

Bill

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Thank you for your answers
when a Calvinist preaches to a nonbeliever is that the Holy Spirit doing the work?
When a nonbeliver rejects your preaching isn't he resisting the Holy Spirit?

I concur with what has already been said, but I would like to add some to what has already been written.



God’s grace is irresistible. His elect will repent and believe on him. We believe that in our fallen nature NONE of us desire or seek God. We are all at enmity with Him. For those who are elect unto salvation the Holy Spirit changes their hearts of stone into hearts of flesh. This enables them to believe. They believe and turn to Christ BECAUSE the Holy Spirit has made them alive. Now alive we come to Christ. This is the irresistible grace we speak of.



All men, in their fallen nature, naturally reject God and the call of the Gospel. It is only when the Holy Spirit changes our heart and makes us a new creature that we respond to the Gospel from the heart.



I hope that helps some.



Dominus Vobiscum,

Kenith

 

[orthedoxy]

When anyone preaches to a nonbeliever, God must regenerate the person through the Holy Spirit before the person can believe the Gospel.

When a nonbeliever rejects the free offer of the Gospel, he is not resisting the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit was not at work in the nonbeliever.

Basically, when God works in a person to believe the Gospel, He never fails. We believe that the act of salvation is entirely the Lord's doing. It comes not from the will of man, but the will of God. (John 1:13).

One first hears the message then accepts then the spirit lives in them.
Jesus said: Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
I agree that salvation is Gods work he is the one that saves but according to John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
He saves those who receive him(his work), also God doesn’t foreordain us into salvation he simply ordains, from our point of view he foreordains.
The Gospel is the method of how God calls people into salvation by rejecting the Gospel people are rejecting God. Here is an example:
Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

I understand what you are saying and you sure have a way with words but the non believers are resisting God by not believing therefore I don’t think it should be called irresistible grace maybe it should be called something else

peace

 

[Beoga]

One first hears the message then accepts then the spirit lives in them.
Jesus said: Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

who was Jesus speaking to when he said those words?

I agree that salvation is Gods work he is the one that saves but according to John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

what does John 1:13 say?

He saves those who receive him(his work), also God doesn’t foreordain us into salvation he simply ordains, from our point of view he foreordains.

He doesn't?
Ephesians 1; Romans 8:29-30

The Gospel is the method of how God calls people into salvation by rejecting the Gospel people are rejecting God. Here is an example:
Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

Context?

I understand what you are saying and you sure have a way with words but the non believers are resisting God by not believing therefore I don’t think it should be called irresistible grace maybe it should be called something else

peace

are you allow scripture to interpret what you see in the world, or what you see in the world to interpret scripture?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

One first hears the message then accepts then the spirit lives in them.
Jesus said: Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
I agree that salvation is Gods work he is the one that saves but according to John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
He saves those who receive him(his work), also God doesn’t foreordain us into salvation he simply ordains, from our point of view he foreordains.
The Gospel is the method of how God calls people into salvation by rejecting the Gospel people are rejecting God. Here is an example:
Act 7:51 "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

I understand what you are saying and you sure have a way with words but the non believers are resisting God by not believing therefore I don’t think it should be called irresistible grace maybe it should be called something else

peace

Hello Orthedoxy,



I will assume that you don’t want to argue about the Doctrines of Grace (another title for our understanding of soteriology), so I will continue with the irresistible grace explanation.



We believe it is part of our fallen nature to not answer the call of the Gospel. We only respond rightly to the Gospel if the Holy Spirit does a work in our heart, then we respond.



Lets look at some of the verses you bring up. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” but if you continue to read we find “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”



We also read in I Cor 2:14 that “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The natural unsaved person can not believe things that are spiritual. His spirit must be made alive by the Spirit so that he can receive the things of God. When the Holy Spirit does this we come to Christ (irresistibly) because we have a new heart and then seek to know the true God.



Coram Deo,

Kenith

 

[orthedoxy]

who was Jesus speaking to when he said those words?

It doesn't matter who he is talking to because in the verse he says any man.

what does John 1:13 say?

I totally agree with vs 13 it's by his will we are saved. He saves those who receive him. You can't ignore vs 12 it says we become children after we receive him.

 

[orthedoxy]

Hello Orthedoxy,



I will assume that you don’t want to argue about the Doctrines of Grace (another title for our understanding of soteriology), so I will continue with the irresistible grace explanation.



We believe it is part of our fallen nature to not answer the call of the Gospel. We only respond rightly to the Gospel if the Holy Spirit does a work in our heart, then we respond.



Lets look at some of the verses you bring up. “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:” but if you continue to read we find “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”



We also read in I Cor 2:14 that “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The natural unsaved person can not believe things that are spiritual. His spirit must be made alive by the Spirit so that he can receive the things of God. When the Holy Spirit does this we come to Christ (irresistibly) because we have a new heart and then seek to know the true God.

I would agree with you that a man can't come to God unless the Holy Spirit calls them. This is done by God sending someone to preaching the Gospel but the person has to respond to the Gospel.
Act 2:37-38When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
These unsaved people heard the Gospel were cut to the heart, then they asked how do we get saved? Peter said repent and get baptized then you will receive the Holy Spirit(they can't have received the Holy Spirit then convicted).
Do you think God want anyone to parish if it's a matter of changing a person will then why doesn't he change every ones will?
2pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Jesus wanted all Israel to be saved but he couldn't do it because they were not willing to accept his message.
Matt 23:37“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
1Tim 2:3-4This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
God wants all men to be saved so why doesn't he use his irresistible grace on all men?
A question
We read in Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age
Were these people resisting the Holy Spirit?

God bless

 

[JamesCarter]

I know that irresitable grace is part of TULIP's five petals, but I prefer the wording "effective call" to irresistable grace. God's call to the elect is effectual. It will accomplish His purpose. Orthodoxy, certainly you could acknowledge that a Sovereign God's call to His elect is effectual, could you not? If not, what would you attribute the elect's salvation to, his/her superior intelligence or virtue? No, surely not. I think it's obvious it's because a gracious God's call is effectual. By the way, I have no quarrel with the fourth petal. I just prefer a different wording. In the final analysis, they are equivalent expressions in my opinion.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[Imblessed]

James,

You make a very good point. I believe that effectual call is a much better wording, but it would ruin our TULIP acronym wouldn't it?? LOL

Orthodoxy,
Perhaps you are confusing the outward call with the inward call? Everyone is called to repent. That is the outward call. That is our job as christians to boldly go and preach the Gospel to ALL. But only those with the "inward" or effectual cal are going to spiritually discern what they hear, and respond favorably. Some will hear the outward call and respond, but theirs is the faith that does not last. This is a reponse based on feelings, emotion, fear, even peer pressure. But not a response to an inward call. We only know if our response to the call is inward when it produces the fruit. We must constantly test our faith, and if we have fruit then we may REST in the knowledge that God has chosen us and will perfect our faith to the end. (but that's getting off the subject)


To many men, the idea of God choosing some and passing over others is extremely unfair. We cannot know the reasons for this, but the proof is in the bible. I don't like it, but I must accept it, for it is the truth.
Paul anticipated this very reaction "it's UNFAIR". He addresses it in Romans 9. I'll start with verse 18

18 "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He will He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His Will? 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this? 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and make His power know, endured with much longsuffering the vesses of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might made know the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

I believe that about sums it up. We don't know why God chooses to operate this way. But he does. It is evident that not all men are created equal in God's eyes. We have to accept God's ways, even if we cannot understand them...

 

[orthedoxy]

I know that irresitable grace is part of TULIP's five petals, but I prefer the wording "effective call" to irresistable grace. God's call to the elect is effectual. It will accomplish His purpose. Orthodoxy, certainly you could acknowledge that a Sovereign God's call to His elect is effectual, could you not? If not, what would you attribute the elect's salvation to, his/her superior intelligence or virtue? No, surely not. I think it's obvious it's because a gracious God's call is effectual. By the way, I have no quarrel with the fourth petal. I just prefer a different wording. In the final analysis, they are equivalent expressions in my opinion.

Soli Deo Gloria

The purpose of a call is to call one into salvation not to force a person to do a certain thing. What you are saying is if he tries to force a person to do something then he will accomplish it. That would be forced call if God forces us to love him that would be rape (forced love is rape).
We have free will would you agree? Free will is not free if you can't do otherwise; if you program a robot to come to you then you can't say the robot freely came to me. The purpose of freewill is to show love you can’t program a robot to love you.
Read 2pet 3:9 Does God want anyone to parish? If not then why do people parish?
1tim 2:4 does God want everyone to be saved? If so why doesn’t he save all?
Why do Christians sin why doesn’t God give us an effective grace? Do you think Christians have resistible grace that’s why we choose to sin? Certainly you don’t think God wants us to sin do you?

 

[orthedoxy]

James,

You make a very good point. I believe that effectual call is a much better wording, but it would ruin our TULIP acronym wouldn't it?? LOL

Orthodoxy,
Perhaps you are confusing the outward call with the inward call? Everyone is called to repent. That is the outward call. That is our job as christians to boldly go and preach the Gospel to ALL. But only those with the "inward" or effectual cal are going to spiritually discern what they hear, and respond favorably. Some will hear the outward call and respond, but theirs is the faith that does not last. This is a reponse based on feelings, emotion, fear, even peer pressure. But not a response to an inward call. We only know if our response to the call is inward when it produces the fruit. We must constantly test our faith, and if we have fruit then we may REST in the knowledge that God has chosen us and will perfect our faith to the end. (but that's getting off the subject)


To many men, the idea of God choosing some and passing over others is extremely unfair. We cannot know the reasons for this, but the proof is in the bible. I don't like it, but I must accept it, for it is the truth.
Paul anticipated this very reaction "it's UNFAIR". He addresses it in Romans 9. I'll start with verse 18

18 "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He will He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His Will? 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, Why have you made me like this? 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and make His power know, endured with much longsuffering the vesses of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might made know the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

I believe that about sums it up. We don't know why God chooses to operate this way. But he does. It is evident that not all men are created equal in God's eyes. We have to accept God's ways, even if we cannot understand them...

I believe the outward call has to be received before The Holy Spirit could work inwardly.
Here is a verse that implies that.
act 16:17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
The way Paul was to open their eyes is by preaching the Gospel.
Mark4:11-12 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, “ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
Here is another place shows the outward call causes salvation.

In regard to Rom 9 I completely agree with that I believe God will have mercy on whom he wills. This is why in our Church we pray for the loved ones that have passed away because we believe he could have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. We also always pray that God would have mercy on us. We leave all judgment up to God.
I don’t have a problem with why God does things but I do have a problem with the way Calvinist view God.
May God bless you and your beautiful kids.

 

[Beoga]

It doesn't matter who he is talking to because in the verse he says any man.

so do you disregard context whenever you read scripture?

 

[Imblessed]

I believe the outward call has to be received before The Holy Spirit could work inwardly.
Here is a verse that implies that.
act 16:17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
The way Paul was to open their eyes is by preaching the Gospel.

Yes, preaching the Gospel is how God uses us to call His people. But unless they have already been spiritually quickened, the Word(Gospel) will be foolishness to them.

Mark4:11-12 He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, “ ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!
Here is another place shows the outward call causes salvation.

don't you see the plain implication of this? If God wanted everyone saved, then Jesus never would have spoken in parables so that ANY person could understand. "ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding"--UNLESS God grants them the ability to see and understand

In regard to Rom 9 I completely agree with that I believe God will have mercy on whom he wills. This is why in our Church we pray for the loved ones that have passed away because we believe he could have mercy on whom he wants to have mercy. We also always pray that God would have mercy on us. We leave all judgment up to God.

So you do leave an option for God to "forcefully" save those who don't desire(your words from an earlier post) to be saved? You pray for the loved ones who have passed away--why? So God will save them? Wouldn't that be forced? If they have died in this earthly life without choosing Him, why would He feel the need to change that? and if He does, why doesn't He just change everyones hearts after death. Universalism sure is appealing....

I don’t have a problem with why God does things but I do have a problem with the way Calvinist view God.

I guess my problem with the way "arminianists" view things is that they rely on our ability to love God as He loved us. Human beings love conditionally, and we fall in and out of love so often, our love is not reliable. Some people plainly have a better ability to love more fully than others, but there is NO ONE who can honestly say that their love is an everlasting love, no matter what gets done with it. I've seen too many "good" people just not get it(the Gospel), and too many people who's lives have been changed by the Word who were running from it!!! Calvinism is the only theology that explains that(this is my opinion). You seem to believe that we "see God" negatively. How so? Just because we believe some are "pre-destined" for hell? You could say the same for any arminian who believes that we send ourselves to hell and God won't "do" anything about it. In fact, only Universalists could be said to have a positive "view" of God.

May God bless you and your beautiful kids.

thank you