irrefutable proof?

[[serious]]

Hi serious,

I'm a bit confused as to how you are relating what you've shared here to the prophecy I mentioned.

In the prophecy, Daniel talked about the Messiah being "cut off" regarding a particular number of years. There is even an actual mathematical equation involved.

Can you comment on that? Thanks.

You lost me when you were converting between calendars. Of course, the day-year principle is dubious to me as well.

Ultimately, any date based prophecy is diluted by the number of ways you can calculate the date. This makes the Daniel prophecy rather weak evidence given the shear variety of places you can tweak the numbers, type of year (hebrew year, prophetic year, persian year, etc.), whether it's a day or a year, dates used for the allowance to rebuild, dates used for Jesus death, and so on.

Your date for crucifixion, for example, differs by 3 years from the most commonly accepted date of 33 AD, itself only an approximation.

 

[candle glow]

You lost me when you were converting between calendars. Of course, the day-year principle is dubious to me as well.

The prophecy says that "messiah" would be "cut off" 483 years after the decree to rebuild the temple. However, the history books, from the decree to rebuild the temple, up to 30ad, say it's 476 years. There is a discrepancy of 6 years between what the Bible says and what the history books say about that time period (i.e. from 447bc to 30ad)

The Bible says 483. The history books say 476. The discrepancy is explained by the differences in calenders being used. The history books use a solar calender of 365 and a quarter days. The bible use a prophectic year of 360 days.

So, multiply the number of days in a prophetic year, 360, times the number of years in question, 483. The sum is 173,880. This is the number of days according to the biblical account.

Divide this sum by the number of days in the solar year, 365. The sum of this calculation is 476, exactly the number of years the history books give for the same time period as what the Bible does, if we conclude that Jesus died in 30AD.

Your date for crucifixion, for example, differs by 3 years from the most commonly accepted date of 33 AD, itself only an approximation.

I don't know that you can say it's the most commonly accepted, though I can accepted that is is commonly accepted by some. 30AD is also commonly accepted.

The point is, if Jesus really did die in 30AD, the Bible predicted it 476 solar years before it happened.

Ordinarily I would say that Jesus' teachings alone are enough proof of God's existence, but that is more of a personal relationship which cannot be used to force other people to understand.

However, this prophecy is much more objective in that it does not depend on our personal interactions with God's values in order to "see" him.

 

[Littleautieboy]

Look up answersingenesis, it helping me.

 

[meredithraven]

There is no hard proof. If God wanted to show hard proof; he could. However, he doesn't. He doesn't want to prove Himself. Seeing something and believing it means nothing. He wants those who have nothing but faith but still choose to believe in Him, those are true believers.

 

[candle glow]

There is no hard proof. If God wanted to show hard proof; he could. However, he doesn't. He doesn't want to prove Himself. Seeing something and believing it means nothing. He wants those who have nothing but faith but still choose to believe in Him, those are true believers.

Hi meredith,

I get the feeling that you didn't quite read the study on the 70 weeks prophecy, which was the basis for me titling the thread "irrefutable proof".

Can you comment on the topic of the thread?

 

[meredithraven]

Hi meredith,

I get the feeling that you didn't quite read the study on the 70 weeks prophecy, which was the basis for me titling the thread "irrefutable proof".

Can you comment on the topic of the thread?

I read it, I just don't believe that there is any irrefutable proof. I don't think an atheist would believe just because of the prophecies.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[candle glow]

I read it, I just don't believe that there is any irrefutable proof. I don't think an atheist would believe just because of the prophecies.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Hi Meredith. Thanks for that explanation.

I'm actually of two minds on this. I personally feel the prophecy does offer some fairly hard evidence that there really IS something supernatural about the prediction offered.

However, I also feel that God deliberately does NOT provide absolute proof, because he is looking for people who are willing to follow the values of his kingdom because they genuinely appreciate those values, and not just because they are forced into it because there is no way they can deny his existence.

Does that make sense?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Was this post directed at atheists and other non-believers? You did post in a section where believers are supposed to do the answering. If however you were directing the post towards atheists, I'll gladly take a stab at answering.

Hi Ana,

I had atheists in mind when I posted, though I wouldn't say it was "directed" at atheists. It's just a topic for discussion.

Although I labeled the thread as "irrefutable proof?" (with a question mark) I do not believe this prophecy is irrefutable in the sense that people have no choice but to accept it, so I'm fine to discuss it and eventually agree to disagree if it comes to that.

There are also other non-Christian Religions, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhists etc. and there may be atheists that embrace a little bit of each of those in their lives, such as Yoga and Meditation. Just throwing that out there

 

[candle glow]

There are also other non-Christian Religions, Judaism, Islam, Hindu, Buddhists etc. and there may be atheists that embrace a little bit of each of those in their lives, such as Yoga and Meditation. Just throwing that out there

I think the more significant question is what is it they are embracing. I'm not opposed to finding truth in religions other than my own, but I do question the consistency of that truth.

Real sincerity will be able to get along with real sincerity no matter what label it's given.

 

[razeontherock]

Real sincerity will be able to get along with real sincerity no matter what label it's given.

Psalm 42:7 "Deep calleth unto deep"

However, I also feel that God deliberately does NOT provide absolute proof, because he is looking for people who are willing to follow the values of his kingdom

John 7:17 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine"

Mat 11:25 "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

Amazing how He does that!

 

[candle glow]

Yeah it is quite amazing. He's so smart!