Irreducible Complexity and the Orgin of God.

[Foreshadow]

Irreducible Complexity is a simple concept. The idea is something can be so complex it simply can not come into being by evolution. It is a main argument by prominent creationists to refute evolution. One example of this can destroy evoultuion. But no one example examined closely can be considered a by product of Irreducible Complexity. However what you creationists are missing is the fact that Irreducible Complexity applies to every living thing, every organism, every plant. God is a living thing. In order for something to have the means to create a universe and every inside it would have to be complex. In fact I could easily say that you would have to be Irreducible Complexity. That means God would have had to be created by another being of similar origin. All this begs a simple Question who created God? No matter how powerful you are, you can not simply be just there. It is just not possible. You have had to come in being by some secondary source. God can not create himself. Also there is a alterante to Intelligent Design. Contray to popular belief atheists don't believe that everything happened by chance. Natural Selection is the backbone of Evolution and is ignored by many young and old Christians alike. Christians seem to think that you can not survive with half a lung or half a wing. That is not the case. For a bird, half a wing can slow the fall and thus save a bird's Life. Half a eye means you can see shapes, and general outline, this is still very useful. Also you(Christians) willfully believe in faith. The definition of faith is belief without evidence. Just because that plant other there seems too complex to be a product of evolution doesn't mean it is Irreducibly Complex. Over a period of time that plant grew larger and larger, and more complex. For example, in the beginning moss was common place. Then more complex plants appeared. These plants were ferns. Then came the pine trees. And then at the end of the cycle is the oak tree and redwood. So no evidence for god is not around us.

 

[drich0150]

God is a living thing.

By who's definition?

 

[Foreshadow]

God is not dead. Therefore he is living. He living, therefore he is a living thing. He is not a object, so again he is a living thing.

 

[Joveia]

I think one helpful way of thinking about this issue hinges on whether God is infinite. We know that in the finite 'world', any kind of thinking or computing requires a lot of complexity. From a calculator to a human brain, finite intelligence needs to be pretty complex to do stuff. The key is whether 'infinity' brings a whole other group of considerations into play. So for example, infinite stuff doesn't behave like finite stuff. Infinity plus infinity plus infinity equals infinity, but 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. Georg Cantor hinted that infinity might be a kind of existence without distinctions (like 1, -1, 2, -2, 3) that somehow contained every possibility in its being in an absolute unity. A personification of that reality - God - would be 'everlasting to everlasting' and would know everything without being complex.

 

[Foreshadow]

Our universe is finite. There is a begining and a end, but our universe is expand so fast that those start points and end points are changing all the time. God created the Universe. The universe is in fact finite. The universe is everything. God can not be outside the universe, for the universe is in effect the plane of exsistance. However if the universe was infinite, it would be infinitely complex, "Which means it would have to be created by God" God can not be simply for the same reason a muti-cell being can not be single celled. Now like most atheists, I dont know the meaning of life, so I am sure you could stump about some subject I havent learned in school yet. If so, please do, I love to research.

 

[Joveia]

If the universe was infinite in the sense of being infinitely old then it would be infinitely complex. There would be an infinite number of things that have happened in the past. This is one kind of infinite, and seems to create a lot of paradoxes. When we try to imagine an infinite that is built out of finite things then it is a lot like trying to imagine the highest number. It's arguable we can't really imagine it. The other kind of infinite tries to treat the infinite as a completely different sort of number or (if you talk about 'infinite reality') plane of existence. In the second approach, by saying that the infinite is fundamentally different to the finite, it does sort of make sense without some of the difficulties of the first approach. The second sort of infinite might help God 'escape' the complexity problem, by making it so that we can't talk about complexity in the usual way there.

 

[Foreshadow]

Complexity is complexity, no matter what plane of exsistance you are in. Figures dont change as mathematical equations don't factor in environmental variables.

 

[Joveia]

Well, no matter what universe you're in, 1 + 1 + 1 always equals 3. No matter the environment. But if infinity actually exists (and isn't just an idea in people's heads) then in 'infinity reality' 1 + 1 + 1 = 1. Infinity plus infinity plus infinity equals infinity. So assuming the reality of infinity, there can be some very strange stuff going on mathematically.

 

[Foreshadow]

Mathematically but not physically

 

[kevlite2020]

All this begs a simple Question who created God? No matter how powerful you are, you can not simply be just there. It is just not possible. You have had to come in being by some secondary source. God can not create himself.

This is a pretty big claim of understanding of the entire universe. Just because God must be complex does not mean He cannot just exist and that He had to be created. In fact, Him just existing and not being created is just a part of His complexity.

 

[drich0150]

God is not dead. Therefore he is living. He living, therefore he is a living thing. He is not a object, so again he is a living thing.

Is He of flesh, or even made of any kind of Matter as we know it?

For example, God "lives" in a place we can only experience after we die, so when die do we still fit your definition of living? How can one live and still be dead? How can God live in a place only the dead can reach?

My point is you are not going to be able to classify God, or quantify Him so easily, as to place Him in a box and fit Him with a simple chain of logic. If you think you can, you truly don't understand just Who or what God is.

 

[Foreshadow]

How can God just exist without a starting point? He would have to be created or be born or come into being at some point?

 

[Foreshadow]

Is He of flesh, or even made of any kind of Matter as we know it?

For example, God "lives" in a place we can only experience after we die, so when die do we still fit your definition of living? How can one live and still be dead? How can God live in a place only the dead can reach?

My point is you are not going to be able to classify God, or quantify Him so easily, as to place Him in a box and fit Him with a simple chain of logic. If you think you can, you truly don't understand just Who or what God is.

And you can? Do you know the God personally? If so what does he look like? I was trying to stay clear of this subject but it has to be said that there are so many "I saw Jesus and/or god" stories, but none of those stories involving the description of God, what he is like, or anything that has to do with God's description. It is something that every christian conveniently leaves out. God would still be living, he simply be on a different plane of existence , as after death, life and death are subjective terms.

 

[drich0150]

And you can?

No but at the same time I have not made such a presumptuous claim. I merely pointed out that your definition does not fit. There for the following chain of logic does not apply.

It is something that every Christian conveniently leaves out.

The reason we can not give an answer is because we have not been given one.. If we have not been given an answer, then how can we truthfully relay an answer to your question?

This is where is "religion" differs from the others. We can't simply manufacture truths as the needs arise.

God would still be living, he simply be on a different plane of existence , as after death, life and death are subjective terms.

If your willing to acknowledge a different plane of existence, then why would you presuppose that the rules to this plane of existence would apply to that one? (Like the need to have a beginning and an end) If this plane of existence and that one operated on the same principles then how/why would they be different?

 

[Foreshadow]

No but at the same time I have not made such a presumptuous claim. I merely pointed out that your definition does not fit. There for the following chain of logic does not apply.



The reason we can not give an answer is because we have not been given one.. If we have not been given an answer, then how can we truthfully relay an answer to your question?

This is where is "religion" differs from the others. We can't simply manufacture truths as the needs arise.



If your willing to acknowledge a different plane of existence, then why would you presuppose that the rules to this plane of existence would apply to that one? (Like the need to have a beginning and an end) If this plane of existence and that one operated on the same principles then how/why would they be different?

I actually do not acknowledge a different plane of existence, I was simply using it as a agrument point because the Majority of Christendom thinks God must be in a different plane of existence. And as a matter of fact you can manufacture truths as the needs arise. The whole story about Jesus's Virgin birth was manufactured because of a mistranslation in the original text. Many gospels were phased out of the bible in the 5th century, and Deuteronomy and Leviticus are considered not to be cannon by modern day chrisitan leaders simply because of the brutal things mentioned and alluded to in those chapters, as well as showing the culture that existed in the time that the Bible was written by Man, guided by God or not. I am late in posting this because of school. Sorry about that.

 

[Joveia]

Mathematically but not physically

But if there is really a God then infinity is not an idea in people's heads but is 'out there'. Infinity could not be contained in a trillion multiverses. It would exist, but would be 'too much' to be contained in physical reality. We could not know it through finite reason except in the most general way.

How can God just exist without a starting point? He would have to be created or be born or come into being at some point?

It's always strange to finite reason for something to always exist because finite reason starts at '0' and goes upwards forever (1, 2, 3, 4, etc), from the starting point of nothing. But maybe the infinite 'starts' at the infinite ∞ and never changes, so to God maybe it is puzzling that humans ask why there would need to be a starting point for everything.

 

[Foreshadow]

Look I would love to debate on this matter but I am starting to get way out of my league here, as you can see from my age. My point is that even infinite has to have been finite at one point. What I mean is there must have been a point in time when everything was finite, for then from that finite point infinite would been created or evolved over time to the point of what it is today.

 

[kevlite2020]

Look I would love to debate on this matter but I am starting to get way out of my league here, as you can see from my age. My point is that even infinite has to have been finite at one point. What I mean is there must have been a point in time when everything was finite, for then from that finite point infinite would been created or evolved over time to the point of what it is today.

I don't mean any offense with this post, but if you are over your head in this conversation, how can you still continue to claim that it's factual that God had to be born at a certain time to have existed.

I believe that God created time, space, and matter, along with everything else we know as humans. If that line of thought is correct (which you or I will not be able to ever say one way or another factually), then God exists outside of those things. Obviously He would have to to be able to create it. So if God is outside those things, those things are not necessary to have created God. Meaning God exists outside of time and instead of being born, He just is, has been, and always will be.

It's really silly for us as humans to try and think we can understand how God must have been created, or in what form/forms He exists. Even the smartest man/woman alive would say they don't know a majority of the things about this universe, let alone what may or may not be outside of it.

 

[Foreshadow]

How can you just be? This kinda goes against your logic doesn't it. You know the"Nothing can come from Nothing" little dance that you Christians do.

 

[kevlite2020]

How can you just be? This kinda goes against your logic doesn't it. You know the"Nothing can come from Nothing" little dance that you Christians do.

"something always is" is different then "nothing from nothing." I'm not trying to say that nothing created God, I'm trying to say that God always was and always will be, in other words, He is outside of creation, you can't try to pull God into our universe and slap our physical laws on Him to say He can't just exist. He exists outside of the world and outside of these physical laws, as He is the one who created them.