Iran's 'Final Response' to the US on Al-Quds Day October 12, 2007

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Candide

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This is just my point. NOBODY speaks for the entirety of Islam. Just as NOBODY speaks for the entirety of Christianity (at least nobody alive. Mohammad did speak for Islam, as Jesus spoke for Christianity...but both of them are dead (or not here any more), and neither of their messages are being followed particularly well). My point is that there is a constant debate and discussion within the Muslim community about what those verses mean, in their historical context, when coupled with the verses in the Quran that encourage tolerance and peace (you know, the ones that people seldom quote).

And just because a practice is widely accepted in Muslim countries doesn't mean that it's Muslim doctrine. Again, slavery was practiced in many Christian nations. Does this mean slavery is Christian doctrine?

As well, Mohammad discouraged adultery or polygamy within the Ummah (though adultery moreso than polygamy). As Shaykh for his clan (the Ummah) Mohammad had to do certain things to ensure the stability and success of his tribe, such as making political marriages (as all of his many, except for the first, were). This is also where the doctrine of the Hijab comes into play. The Hijab was only intended to be a rule for the wives of the Prophet, not for all Islamic women, much as polygamy was necessary for Mohammad, but was discouraged for the rest of the Ummah, until way after Mohammad died when his "followers" decided to take what he said and taught about women and the Quran and everything, and flip it 180 degrees.
 
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Candide

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See the slavery example again.

Why didn't Christians of the time ban slavery, instead of using the Bible to justify it?

Because they had a pretty sweet system going, and they didn't want to ruin it. The same could be said for the people you're talking about.
 
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Candide

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How so? How am I wrong?

You asked why people still do these things, if they're contrary to Muslim teaching, and I responded that they do them because they have a pretty sweet system, and they don't want to lose it, like those who used the Bible to justify slavery. It's the same thing. Where am I missing the mark?
 
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Servant222

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Christians have in the past used the Bible to justify sinful acts- but that does not make them right, and the sin is eventually exposed for what it really is.

But the Qu'ran appears to condone actions that the Bible states categorically are sins, and so Muslims that carry out those sinfull activities do not realize they are doing something wrong.
 
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Candide

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And that's where you're wrong. We've gone over this time and time again. There are many Muslims who think that the things that the others are doing is wrong. The Quran doesn't condone those things any more than the Bible condones slavery. This has been my point all along. Those people that you speak of are interpreting the Quran in a way that is vastly different than Mohammad himself interpreted it, and the vast majority of Muslims interpret it.
 
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Servant222

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And again, show me where in the New Testament, murder, adultery, and pedophilia, as described in the following passages taken directly from Islam's most important reference books, are found. And show me where Jesus ever engaged in any acts of sexual immorality, as Mohammed did.

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Surah 5:72 and 73.
Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "Allâh is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship Allâh, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allâh, then Allâh has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers) there are no helpers.

Surah 5:51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong doers and unjust).

Surah 9:5
Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush.

Surah 2:191, 193, 194
And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisâs). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allâh, and know that Allâh is with Al-Muttaqûn

Surah 9:5
Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Surah 9:73
O Prophet (Muhammad )! Strive hard against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, - and worst indeed is that destination.



Surah 9:111
Verily, Allâh has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in Allâh's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'ân. And who is truer to his covenant than Allâh? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success .

Surah 9:122, 123
And it is not (proper) for the believers to go out to fight (Jihâd) all together. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth, that they (who are left behind) may get instructions in (Islâmic) religion, and that they may warn their people when they return to them, so that they may beware (of evil).

123. O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the Al-Muttaqûn.

Surah 47:4
So, when you meet (in fight Jihâd in Allâh's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islâm), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allâh to continue in carrying out Jihâd against the disbelievers till they embrace Islâm (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allâh's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allâh, He will never let their deeds be lost,


Tabari VII:7
"The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six." Ishaq:281 "When the Apostle came to Medina he was fifty-three." Tabari VII:6 "In May, 623 A.D./A.H. 1, Allah's Messenger consummated his marriage to Aisha."

Tabari IX:128
"When the Prophet married Aisha, she was very young and not yet ready for consummation."

Tabari IX:131 "My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old."
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Some Muslims may wish that their religion didn't describe these acts of murder and sexual immorality, they may wish that their religion didn't have such a controversial start, and wasn't in total conflict with Biblical standards- but the facts speak for themselves.

You say "There are many Muslims who think that the things that the others are doing is wrong". So back up that statement with some facts.

When you look at the almost weekly suicide attacks, and the rhetoric that Muslim groups in places other than North America or Europe spew, certainly my impression is that a large portion, and probably a majority, of Muslims do in fact support the Islamic teachings about how to deal with infidels and how to treat women.

For example, one recent poll (2005) found that 51% of Muslims in Pakistan support the terrorist actions of Osama Bin Laden. Only 12% felt the opposite.

The same poll found that 44% of Pakistanis expressed at least some support that violence against civilian targets, such as suicide bombings, is justified in the defense of Islam. In Jordan, the numbers were even higher- a staggering 88%, with only 11% expressing the opinion that violence was not right!!

Considering the number of Muslims in the world, these are pretty sobering statistics and suggest that tens of millions of them do in fact support the teachings of the Qu'ran with regard to violence.
 
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Candide

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You're right, you win.

At this point, I'll just be repeating everything that I've said in this thread, and then you'll repeat everything you've said, as you've been doing.

So I give up, you beat me. All Muslims are evil, and there's nothing positive about their religion at all. We should just hate them and call them names, because it's obviously very simple what they believe. They all believe the same thing, and interpret the Quran the same way, and they all want to kill us all so they can sleep with our nine year old sisters, simply because they're animals, and it can't possibly be true that this is a very complex, complicated issue...and you can't have just been looking at one side of this issue all along. :)
 
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Servant222

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I know you're being facetious, and I know that many Muslims do not in fact practice what their religion teaches them to do- but in my opinion, a disproportionate number do support terrorism, and do in fact suppress the rights of women.

So I have no problem respecting anyone who has religious beliefs different from my own- as long as they renounce violence and renounce adultery (polygamy), and other Biblical sins, and support freedom of religion, the rule of law, and democracy.

Every Muslim needs to re-examine the basic tenements and origins of their faith, and honestly reflect on whether or not they wish to ignore the unsavoury aspects of that faith, or else abandon those beliefs altogether and embrace a religion that has been around far longer than Islam, is based on the independent observations and writing of numerous scholars and individuals, and truly is based on a philosophy of peace and good will.
 
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