Iran

[SolomonVII]

Cold war hindsight by the way is what is 20/20. When the cold war warrior JFK stared down Russian missiles in the Caribbean, he had no way of knowing how nihilistic his athiest enemy might prove to be in the confrontation either.

 

[Latreia]

I'm not a dispensationalist. Actually I can't stand dispensationalism.

I recognize that the Church is the continuation of the assembly of God's congregation.

The covenant God made with Abraham was a covenant of faith. Thus the children of that covenant, the children of abraham, are all those who have faith.

That, however, does not preclude, or nullify all the promises that God made to the other patriarchs, and to the people of Israel down through the ages. It doesn't change the fact that Paul says Israel will be restored. God has veiled Israel because of their unbelief (that obviously doesn't refer to the Church) and is using the unbelief of the Jews in order to save the gentiles. He is using the faith of the gentiles to make the Jews jealous, and when the harvest of the gentiles is finished, the Jews will be brought into the Kingdom of heaven, into the Church. Within the Church we are all children of Abraham.

Dispensationalism has a lot of problems because it imposes a completely man made foreign structure over the bible, one which often times doesn't make a lot of sense to the actual bible.
It does recognize a few important points, but on those points it usually goes way too far and as a result even ruins those things.

the relationship between Israel and the Church is one of those things. Dispensationalism recognized that there is a distinction between physical Israel and the Church and that physical Israel still has a destiny and they are still chosen.
They go way over board by imagining, completely contradictory to the bible, that there is a seperate gospel for the Jews and the gentiles, that God deals with them in significantly different ways. God deals with them in exactly the same way and within God's kingdom they are one. Physical Israel is suffering judgement as a result of their unbelief, just as happened numerous times in the old testament. They will be brought back to faith, however, and when they are, it will be through Jesus Christ just as the gentiles are.

May I observe that neither Israel nor the Jews have been the only victims of the Isalmic terrorist scourge?

Who can deny that thousands of Christians, non-Christians, atheists, and above all, millions of Muslims are all victims, in many different ways.

It is beyond me to imagine that our Lord God is manipulative and punitive with an anti-Semitic bias.

Let such ideas serve those who wish to embrace them.

I cannot and never shall.

 

[Latreia]

Sunni Saudi Arabia certainly won't use their petro-dollars to keep Iran from falling, and it not because they won't have enough money. They represent radically different forms of Islam.

As far as covert military actions go, this is very cheap, and Iran is the main state player behind most of this, be it Hezbollah, or Hamas anyways. There will always be enough money for this kind of mayhem. The terrorist activity though is ideology driven, and this is where the petrodolars are mainly spent ie in cultural activities in western mosques and madrassas to indoctrinate the next generation of whackos.

The point is that the economy of Iran is falling right now, with the public service not getting paid from the government, and no country is going to step up to the plate and pay Iran's debts for them.

This does not seem very significant or encouraging. Iran might fall economically, but it will be taken over by militants and they will still be Islamic.

It could become the scapegoat that Bin Laden created of Afghanistan.

What a stroke of genius that was.

Complete havoc and direct impact upon the United States politically and many other negative fallouts.

History, remember it.

 

[psalms 91]

This does not seem very significant or encouraging. Iran might fall economically, but it will be taken over by militants and they will still be Islamic.

It could become the scapegoat that Bin Laden created of Afghanistan.

What a stroke of genius that was.

Complete havoc and direct impact upon the United States politically and many other negative fallouts.

History, remember it.

While I believgew that the government has an obligation to protect our interests and act accordingly I will trust the Word of God and when I read about tribulation and the alignment of nations against Israel I know that no matter what we do will change one word of what God has ordained. This is why I would wait, besides if they become that big of a threat I gaurantee that Israel will hit them first.

 

[Cromwe11]

May I observe that neither Israel nor the Jews have been the only victims of the Isalmic terrorist scourge?

Who can deny that thousands of Christians, non-Christians, atheists, and above all, millions of Muslims are all victims, in many different ways.

It is beyond me to imagine that our Lord God is manipulative and punitive with an anti-Semitic bias.

Let such ideas serve those who wish to embrace them.

I cannot and never shall.

I wasn't referring to Islam specifically as the judgement. I'm well aware that Islam is the enemy of the entire western world.

I think everything that has happened to the Jews in the last 2000 years is the direct result of their rejection of God.

If you don't think that God would use such things, just read the Old Testament. The things that have happened to them have not really been anyworse than the things that happened to them in the old testament, they have just been in exile much longer.

Think about this, God punnished them so severly in the old testament that 10/12ths of the hebrew people are still 'lost' to this day, and have never been fully rediscovered since the assyrian conquest of Israel.

think about Jesus' parable of the vinyard in which the tenants of the vinyard (the Jews, the vinyard being the land). The punnishments the Hebrews suffered in the old testament were the result of beating, and mistreating God's messengers because of their unbelief.. how much greater do you think their punnishment would be for willfully killing the vinyard owners own Son?

The fact that I believe the misfortunes of the Jewish people are judgement for rejecting God, does not mean I applaud them, or think those who mistreate the Jews are justified. Again, look at the old testament punnishments. God used Assyria, and he used Babylon to chastise the Israelites, but when those people's rejoiced at the suffering of the hebrews, and delighted in afflicting them, God punished them as well.

I think we tend to forget that God governs the affairs of men and he directs history. We attribute too much power to the enemy. The enemy is not able to do anything, except what God allows. Thus the sufferings o the Jews, though undoubtedly accomplished by the enemy, have been directly allowed by God and whether they were his desire or not, they will serve God's purposes as does everything.

 

[BelindaP]

Also, never forget that even though God used the Assyrians and others to punish Israel, He turned around and punished them for harming Israel. Those who would justify harming Israel based upon Jesus' crucifixion should think about that.

 

[Cromwe11]

Also, never forget that even though God used the Assyrians and others to punish Israel, He turned around and punished them for harming Israel. Those who would justify harming Israel based upon Jesus' crucifixion should think about that.

indeed

 

[Latreia]

I wasn't referring to Islam specifically as the judgement. I'm well aware that Islam is the enemy of the entire western world.

I think everything that has happened to the Jews in the last 2000 years is the direct result of their rejection of God.

If you don't think that God would use such things, just read the Old Testament. The things that have happened to them have not really been anyworse than the things that happened to them in the old testament, they have just been in exile much longer.

Think about this, God punnished them so severly in the old testament that 10/12ths of the hebrew people are still 'lost' to this day, and have never been fully rediscovered since the assyrian conquest of Israel.

think about Jesus' parable of the vinyard in which the tenants of the vinyard (the Jews, the vinyard being the land). The punnishments the Hebrews suffered in the old testament were the result of beating, and mistreating God's messengers because of their unbelief.. how much greater do you think their punnishment would be for willfully killing the vinyard owners own Son?

The fact that I believe the misfortunes of the Jewish people are judgement for rejecting God, does not mean I applaud them, or think those who mistreate the Jews are justified. Again, look at the old testament punnishments. God used Assyria, and he used Babylon to chastise the Israelites, but when those people's rejoiced at the suffering of the hebrews, and delighted in afflicting them, God punished them as well.

I think we tend to forget that God governs the affairs of men and he directs history. We attribute too much power to the enemy. The enemy is not able to do anything, except what God allows. Thus the sufferings o the Jews, though undoubtedly accomplished by the enemy, have been directly allowed by God and whether they were his desire or not, they will serve God's purposes as does everything.

While it is commendable to defer to the Holy Bible and scriptures to prove truth,
I would pause just a moment to reflect upon the fact that the Old Testament was written by the Jews about their relationship with G_d. Does that not also make that their own religion and faith?

Their experiences, their views, their books.
In practically the same breath, by using the New Testament, you relegate the Jews own writing, which Christians also hold valid to then condemn them with the books about the Christian Messiah.

Using the entire Holy Bible to explain such views about the will of God, the mind of Whom no man can know, does not seem to reflect the message and the salvation that Jesus brought for those who believe on His Words.

I may the only one here to see it this way, but I simply cannot abuse my faith by using the scriptures to judge and rebuke our Jewish fellows and keepers of their own faith.

We all understand all too well how verses and quotations from the Holy Bible may be used and abused.

The one thing that I do agree is that Israel has every kind of right to destroy any evil which threatens their existance.

And that point, to me, is never negotiable.

 

[Cromwe11]

While it is commendable to defer to the Holy Bible and scriptures to prove truth,
I would pause just a moment to reflect upon the fact that the Old Testament was written by the Jews about their relationship with G_d. Does that not also make that their own religion and faith?

No, the Jews were given the Holy Oracles of God. The Jews did not make them, or create them or anything like that. The Jews were chosen to deliver them. The words, the books, the message belongs to God and is not of any private interpetation or ownership.
The context of the Old Testament is Jewish culture and history, thus those things are useful for understanding it. The truth remains, that the Jews themselves often times did not understand the message the God gave them. The old testament itself shows this. How many times does God say that the Jews completely profaned his name, and his word? It was the hebrews themselves who frequently persecuted and killed the very prophets to whom the divine oracles of God were given. Yes those men were Israelites, but they were also rejected and persecuted and killed by the other Israelites.

The Jewish people are chosen. That doesn't mean they are right. The fact is that Jewish religion since the time of Christ has often been deliberately anti-christ. The reason they rejected Christ was specifically because they didn't understand their own holy scriptures, and they didn't really believe them. Jesus was pretty clear about that himself.

The truth also remains that those who reject the Son, also reject the Father. This should disabuse Christians of the image that Judaism worships God. It doesn't. It rejects the Son, therefore it rejects the Father.

Their experiences, their views, their books.
In practically the same breath, by using the New Testament, you relegate the Jews own writing, which Christians also hold valid to then condemn them with the books about the Christian Messiah.

Jesus is not the "Christian Messiah" he is THE Messiah. God's Messiah. As I said above, the old testament are not "their books" it is God's word. His book. They were given it in trust and on the most crucial points, they failed to understand it, as a people.
Again, this is not a rejection of Jews as God's people. They are still the natural branch. The natural branch will be grafted back in, but the fact is right now, they are not grafted into the root, which is Jesus Christ.

perhaps this will make things more clear. Jesus Christ is the I AM. He is yahweh, Jehovah, whichever you prefer. He is the God who revealed himself to the Jews in the old testament. (I'm not being oneness here, but Jesus very clearly claimed to be the I AM). When the Jews rejected him, they rejected the very same I AM who spoke to Moses from the burning bush and who visited Abraham.

Using the entire Holy Bible to explain such views about the will of God, the mind of Whom no man can know, does not seem to reflect the message and the salvation that Jesus brought for those who believe on His Words.

"those who believe" is the key phrase there. Salvation is for those who believe. Those who do not believe have made themselves enemies of God.
God is not different now than he was in the old testament. Jesus is the God who reigned fire from heaven on Sodom.

I may the only one here to see it this way, but I simply cannot abuse my faith by using the scriptures to judge and rebuke our Jewish fellows and keepers of their own faith.

You might as well say the same thing about muslims.. who are you to tell them not to keep their own faith, or pagans, or anyone.

The fact is, according to the bible, the Jewish religion as it has existed since the time of Christ is anti-christ and it is leading people to destruction.

The one thing that I do agree is that Israel has every kind of right to destroy any evil which threatens their existance.

And that point, to me, is never negotiable.

All people and nations have the right of self defense. Israel no less than anyone else. The view held by many that Israel is the road block to peace in the middle east is inexplicable. Here is a quote which is very very true.

If the palestinians laid down their arms today, tomorrow there would be peace in the middle east. If Israel laid down her arms today, tomorrow there would be no Israel and probably no Jews left alive.

 

[Latreia]

It very possible to line up all the facts and present them presuavisely.

But these "points" fail, in my view, to present the message that Jesus gave to His followers: Love.

When the Messiah says to turn the other cheek, I don't think He also stipulated that this did not apply to Jews.

 

[Cromwe11]

It very possible to line up all the facts and present them presuavisely.

But these "points" fail, in my view, to present the message that Jesus gave to His followers: Love.

When the Messiah says to turn the other cheek, I don't think He also stipulated that this did not apply to Jews.

I agree. I'm not saying its right to persecute Jews. Like Belinda said, the fact that God used Babylon and Assyria to judge Israel, didn't mean that Babylon and Assyria were excused for what they did.

Same with pharoh. God raised up Pharoh, God is the one who brought Israel into egypt and allowed them to be slaves there for 400 years. He fortold that to Abraham long before it happened. That didn't excuse the egyptians.

 

[Latreia]

I agree. I'm not saying its right to persecute Jews. Like Belinda said, the fact that God used Babylon and Assyria to judge Israel, didn't mean that Babylon and Assyria were excused for what they did.

Same with pharoh. God raised up Pharoh, God is the one who brought Israel into egypt and allowed them to be slaves there for 400 years. He fortold that to Abraham long before it happened. That didn't excuse the egyptians.

Do you have any idea how that sounds to an intelligent person?

Not even an atheist could do better than to describe how the Christian God is a concept to be avoided.

As a member of the United Methodist Church, such logic would be rejected by our congregation in the church I attend.

We fellowship with many of the Jewish faith and we do not condemn them to suffer or rebuke them for Israel's political problems.

We live by the Holy Bible. We find no anti-Semitism in it.

 

[SolomonVII]

This does not seem very significant or encouraging. Iran might fall economically, but it will be taken over by militants and they will still be Islamic.

Iran is already run by worse than militants. It is run by the same people who give Hizbollah and Hamas their marching orders.This is as militant as it gets.

It could become the scapegoat that Bin Laden created of Afghanistan.

that is why it is best to be seen to be falling under its own weight and not due to outside influence.

Complete havoc and direct impact upon the United States politically and many other negative fallouts.

History, remember it.

The failure of communist Russia taught the world, with the exception of American university professors perhaps, that Marxism was a futile system.
This is the lesson that one might hope that anyone smarter than an American university professor might learn from the failure of Islamofascist mullocracy of Iran too.

 

[Cromwe11]

Do you have any idea how that sounds to an intelligent person?

Not even an atheist could do better than to describe how the Christian God is a concept to be avoided.

As a member of the United Methodist Church, such logic would be rejected by our congregation in the church I attend.

We fellowship with many of the Jewish faith and we do not condemn them to suffer or rebuke them for Israel's political problems.

We live by the Holy Bible. We find no anti-Semitism in it.

you can live by your philosophies if you like, I'll stick with what the bible says.

*edit* I suppose I should elaborate to sound less snotty.

yes I do have an idea how that sounds to an intelligent person because, I are one.

Atheists often do use God's actions in the old testament to attack God as unjust. Just like criminals use the actions of the justice system to complain about how unfair it is that they are held accountable for their actions.

Going a step further, God does what he does for his own reasons. We have three options, we can acknowledge what he says and trust that even when things seem to harsh, or seem questionable, that God is allowing them for good reason, we can go with our own judgement and think that God is unjust because his actions don't meet with our approval, or lastly, we can assume that God conforms to our vision of life, and necessity, and that we have a complete understanding of everything, therefore God could not possibly do what the bible says he did.

I chose the first option. Your post above makes it very much seem like you are chosing the 3rd option. Atheists generally chose the 2nd option.

Lastly, I guess its a good thing I'm not responsible to the congregation of the UMC for my beliefs.

 

[SolomonVII]

Yup, as far as theologies go, dispensationalism is a lot less evil than a lot of what is out there fro Christians to chew on.

Knowing that, why would anyone single that one out for special commentary?

 

[Cromwe11]

Yup, as far as theologies go, dispensationalism is a lot less evil than a lot of what is out there fro Christians to chew on.

Knowing that, why would anyone single that one out for special commentary?

well, if you would like to talk about some of the other dangerous theologies you mention, I'd be more than happy to chime in.

a few of the conversations here recently have directly dealt with, or sprang from the teachings of dispensationalism, so it is "on topic" for the discussions.
BUT, now that you mention it.. with some of the most recent things I've seen from dispensationalists, I'm beginning to be of the opinion that its teachings could pretty easily lead people into eventually supporting the antichrist without even realizing it, until its too late, or very nearly too late anyway.
In my view, thats pretty bad

 

[Followers4christ]

The above is just Scriptural interpretation through a modern lens.

God rebuilt Israel in one day (Isaiah 66:8) just as he promised in May 14th, 1948 the nation of Israel was reborn.We can all see God's miracles and see prophecies being fulfilled right before our eyes when we look at Israel.God Bless


Jeremiah 30:3 The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the LORD."


Ezekiel 34:12-13 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.


Ezekiel 36:24 " 'For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

 

[Tangeloper]

Way too many complicated issues for a simple yes or no answer on this question. After all, IMHO, if we take on Iran we are also going to be taking on Russia, and possibly China, too... Especially if they end up joining the SCO.

 

[Servant222]

Way too many complicated issues for a simple yes or no answer on this question. After all, IMHO, if we take on Iran we are also going to be taking on Russia, and possibly China, too... Especially if they end up joining the SCO.

I think its going to be less complicated than we think for the following reasons:

1. the world is seeing in the current Pakistan crisis the danger of a politically unstable country with religious fundamentalists having nuclear weapons. Would Pakistan even be in the news if it wasn't for the presence of the nuclear weapons?

2. the Europeans, especially the very influential Germans and French, as well as the British, clearly now understand how dangerous it would be for Iran to have nuclear weapons, and will do everything they can to stop this from happening- including the use of force if diplomatic efforts fail.

3. China hosts the Olympics next year and would be very reluctant to get involved in anything that jeopardizes the success of those games. That actually may provide a strong incentive for the world taking military action- if needed- before next summer. Of course, this means that this is then also the time for getting China on board in terms of diplomatic initiatives.

4. The situation in both Afghanistan and Iraq seems to be getting better. My guess is that Al Qaeda and the other satanic terrorists are doing everything they can- with Iran's help- to maintain terrorist activities and divert attention away from dealing with Iran's nuclear program. They must realize that if Iran and Afghanistan become more stable, the military resources of both the U.S. and the international community in Afghanistan can be directed towards Iran. The fact that Al Qaeda is not doing more may indicate that they are running out of steam.

So, my guess is that we are going to see a major sustained effort this winter and next spring to stabilize Iran and Afghanistan. We are also going to see a strong incentive for a world-wide effort to convince the Iranians to give up their nuclear plans- after all, who would have thought a year ago that North Korea would alter its course.

However, it Iran persists, and actually carries out a nuclear test, for example, then I bet there is already a plan in place to instantly respond with a surgical, non-nuclear strike against Iran's nuclear facilities- and that would likely happen before next summer's Olympic games.

Now, of course- what we should be concentrating on is trying to figure out what God has in mind. Bottom Line is that evil will eventually be soundly defeated.

 

[SolomonVII]

well, if you would like to talk about some of the other dangerous theologies you mention, I'd be more than happy to chime in.

Wordwise, I don;t think I could keep up.
a few of the conversations here recently have directly dealt with, or sprang from the teachings of dispensationalism, so it is "on topic" for the discussions.

BUT, now that you mention it.. with some of the most recent things I've seen from dispensationalists, I'm beginning to be of the opinion that its teachings could pretty easily lead people into eventually supporting the antichrist without even realizing it, until its too late, or very nearly too late anyway.

In your view, who is the anti-Christ? Is their a country that represents the antichrist mroe than some other?

Is the anti-Christ the US and Israel, perhaps, as Ahmadinejad would have us believe?
And as the Nazis and the Russian secret police would have led us to believe in years gone by.

In my view, thats pretty bad.

God certainly does not need to justify himself to no man. He zaps who he will, for his own reasons. HIs reasons transcends our ability to reason. Even philosophers are waking up to that fact.

On the other hand, we cannot presume to be God. We must exercise compassion for those who suffer on a more human scale.
And by not putting any space between ourselves and those who have carried out genocide in the past, and are contemplating more of the same for the future, it may not be less than easy for more than just a few Christians to fare well when it come to justifying themselves at the foot of the Great White Throne.

It is all relative to how one chooses to view the Bible though, I suppose.

But if Auschwitz wasn't a wake up call for Christians, then nothing else possibly could be.

No doubt a sinner such as myself will not fare so well either at the foot of that Great White Throne, but this issue is just too black and white for anyone with even a shred of decency left in their bones not to get.