Introduction and questions for LCMS folks

[tagyourit]

Didn't want to be accused of thread jacking ( the 2 questions thread ) but a question came up in that thread and a reply to the OP prompted me to join the forum and write this. Sorry, this is gonna be long .

First, let me introduce myself. I'm a new arrival to the forums. Been looking for an active/semi active forum to talk to some LCMS folks about their theology.

My background...I'm presently in the PCA and have been for over 8 years. Before that I was non-denominational.

The church where I'm a member has a conservative and reverent approach to worship. We sing mostly hymns from our Trinity Hymnal, but on occasion will sing old hymns to new tunes and occasionally additional and varied instrumentation. Also an occasional new hymn. Our Order of Worship does not change. We have OT and NT reading, responsive reading, etc. One thing I've noticed in our particular PCA church is that the preached Word has the primary focus. At times, I feel the other elements of worship are rushed so we can get to the sermon and communion ( weekly for us ) is tacked on to the end. I understand that worship has many elements, but it's as if everything is filler to get us to the sermon...and oh yeah, communion.

Having read and listened to quite a bit ( too much maybe? ) of Lutheran "stuff" over the past year...a few blogs, found a used BoC, PCR, Issues Etc. radio, I'm quite taken by the Law / Gospel distinction and the laser-like focus on Christ and the Gospel, versus the PCA where it's God's Sovereignty and the preached Word. Not that Christ and the Gospel isn't preached in my Church, it is. In the vast wasteland of evangellyfish, we are certainly blessed.

Lately I have been considering the importance of liturgy. But, I ask myself why? Why is that important not just to me, but is it that important? Combine that with all the Confessional Lutheran stuff I've been consuming and it's got me looking a little and thinking a lot.

Now, on to the quote I mentioned from the 2 questions thread speaking about liturgy in the LCMS:

A quote from

Inconsistency and the weakening of their doctrine and theology brought on by poor synodical leadership have exacerbated the inconsistencies in the synod.

Speaking specifically to the liturgy, do ya'll think with Matthew Harrison taking the helm, so to speak, that the LCMS liturgy will end the "experiment" in contemporary worship?

We have three LCMS congregations within 15 - 20 minutes where I live and two of them have a "contemporary" or "blended" worship service. This makes me cringe and I'm not even in the LCMS. With regards to the third church, we attended last year for a Tenebrae service and wasn't sure what to think. There is also a WELS church and it's about 35 minutes away.

Is it possible for a Church that now has a traditional and a contemporary service to cut out contemporary all together?

I feel like we have it really, really good where we're at, why go somewhere else? I "sense" an urge to maybe do things a little different to attract new folks or keep the "younger" crowd. Also, our approach to worship is not what I would prefer the way we rush to the sermon. Some things with the leadership structure as well.

I understand there is no perfect church and the church is made up of sinners.

I'm simply looking for some dialogue ( I'm a talker ) with Confessional Lutheran types to help me see the diffs between Presby Reformed and Confessional Lutherans, liturgy, and more.

 

[QuiltAngel]

I don't think you are going to see a big rush to force churches to drop their contemporary services any time soon. Each church is allowed to decided how they do worship.

Now that being said, I predict that contemporary services are going to fade and you see a swing back to the liturgical service. This is because the younger people do not want to be entertained with a fast paced service.

Worship is about God coming to us through the Word and sacrament and we receive His gifts to be fed.

I think it is interesting that you are PCA and are looking at the liturgy comparisons and finding a preference for the Lutheran liturgy. I was raised in the PCUSA and had LCMS grandparents. I always thought that the Lutheran liturgy much more nourishing when we would attend with the Lutheran Church with the grandparents.

 

[Studeclunker]

My first intention, being that I'm no longer LCMS was to read and leave. Since I find myself quoted, I feel that an explanation is needed here.

LCMS or Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, was largely founded by C.F.W. Walther. He and others saw that the State Church in Germany had gone to the dogs and wanted to start a Church that followed the lutheran principals a bit closer. This wasn't practical in a country where such a thing was discouraged both covertly and overtly, so they emmigrated to the U.S. and began anew here (sorry, a very condensed version, there's a lot more to the story).

One of the principles that were part of the new Church's foundation was the concept of 'Congregational Polity,' or local control of the church. This is what leads to the consistant inconsistancy within the LCMS. The local congregation determines to a great degree what is going to be done in their Church. The congregation has a set of guidelines they must follow and they aren't allowed to call a pastor that's not on the Synodical list. The idea was that the leader of the flock would be properly instructed and would lead the congregation in the proper direction. Other than that, nowdays, there's little the Synod is willing to direct.

The previous administration of the Synod was enamoured with the 'Church Growth Movement' and erred in a variety of ways. Partly, it erred in not keeping with that which is most centrally Lutheran; Liturgical service, Law and Gospel sermons, and Historical connectivity. By Historical connectivity, I mean that which connects us to the past. However, the use of Classical and folk music is a problem for some people. They detest it.

Without these things though, how are we to be connected to the Saints of the past? Hence the fact that there has been very little change to the Liturgy in five hundred years. Oh, it has been modified, yes. Don't get me wrong. However, I do believe that Luther himself would be comfortable in most liturgical services. After all, many of his hymns are still being sung with their original music. Admittedly there has been some re-arrangement and adjustment of the melodies, but they still remain true to their historical origins. Gosh, it took the Lutherans nearly seventy-five years to add Amazing Grace to the hymnal, LOL!

Liturgy, Congregational Polity, Law and Gospel, Scriptural teaching. These are the four cornerstones of the LCMS (as I understand it). The previous administration of the Synod wanted to do away with... no, that is'nt quite it... they wanted to water down these principles in order to attract more people to the denomination. The problem is, they sold their souls (so to speak) to do so. The result is a poorly done imitation of Pentecostal and Calvary-Chapel type services, along with wishy-washy teaching, and preaching.

If I might quote Martin Luther here (bolding mine):

In the first place, the preacher should take the utmost care to avoid changes or variations in the text and wording of the Ten Comandments, The Creed, The Lord's Prayer, the Sacraments, etc... On the contrary, he should adopt one form, adhere to it, and use it repeatedly year after year. Young and inexperienced people must be instructed on the basis of a uniform, fixed text and form. They are easily confused if a teacher employs one form now and another form--- perhaps with the intention of making improvements--- later on. In this way all the time and labour will be lost.

Martin Luther - Preface to the Small Catechism 1529.

I would add to this list the Liturgy itself, including it with the Sacraments. Jerrymandering with the Liturgy can confuse the message the congregation gets from a service. It can also be used to change the focus from the Lord to the Preacher's message. Thence, perhaps without his intending it, to the Preacher himself. Yet, the Liturgy is'nt what is central to Lutheran teaching. The E*CA is an excellent example of that. Their Liturgy is beautiful and quite traditional. However, they have departed so far from essential Lutheran doctrine and theologies that they risk their own souls and those of their congregations. Even the Lord makes sarcastic and biting remarks about correct form and incorrect hearts throughout the Bible.

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with special services and praise worship. It's just that they must not be allowed to replace the traditional, liturgical, Lutheran service.

What would the average Christian do if deprived of their Bibles and Hymnals? Most of us have so little of either memorized, we would find ourselves in error very quickly. We have, as Christians, had it very good, with little or no persecution, for a very long time. At least, in the west, we have. Religious freedom here in the United States and finally abroad, have allowed the flourishing of the Church and error. Kind of like the story of the wheat and tares. Thus the jerrymandering of Liturgy and Creeds is a very dangerous thing.

I'm sorry, I'm not familliar with all the Presby. brands. There are several and I believe that at least one is very similar to Lutheran. They are confessional and creedal, liturgical as well, I believe. Our differences lie mainly in the presentation of Law and Gospel as well as real presence during Communion. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Presbyterians do not believe in real presence? That is to say that the Lord is present in and under the elements of Communion, that it instead is more of a memorial service(Do this in rememberence...)? That alone would account for the attude exemplified by your congregation's rushing through Communion. Then again, I've seen Lutherans show up at a Communion service in Board Shorts and Zorries. I mean... where's the respect for the King in that? I will never understand standing in the presence of the King of Kings in anything but my best at hand. But that's just one of my own issues.

All of the above is why I left the LCMS and joined a WELS congregation. The closest LCMS congregation to me that adheres to strict Lutheran doctrine, theology, and liturgy is in Chico, a hundred and fifty miles away. The other is in Ferndale, an equal distance in the opposite direction. So, I don't see myself rejoining LCMS unless the local congregation changes (very doubtful), or if I move out of the area (which just might happen).

 

[tagyourit]

I think it is interesting that you are PCA and are looking at the liturgy comparisons and finding a preference for the Lutheran liturgy. I was raised in the PCUSA and had LCMS grandparents. I always thought that the Lutheran liturgy much more nourishing when we would attend with the Lutheran Church with the grandparents.

My experience is Baptist to non-denom to PCA. Baptist is it's down thing, mostly a veneer. The ND church was praise band, 7-11 style worship.

Nourishing is a good word to describe what I gather from more liturgical churches. I wouldn't call my present PCA church liturgical at all. It's simply formal.

 

[tagyourit]

Studelunker, thanks for your reply. Very helpful. I would like to consider the WELS church that's further down the road from us, but I would prefer a church in my community where we can more easily serve.

That's what slays me about the LCMS church that's minutes from my house. We live in what is/was considered a retirement community. I say was because a lot of younger families are moving in. So I was more than a little surprised they would have offered a "blended" service in addition to their traditional.

Aside from the underlying doctrinal differences between Lutherans and Presbys you mentioned above, for comparison, I believe the denoms are as follows:

ELCA = PCUSA, LCMS = PCA, WELS = OPC.

I see the PCA similar to the LCMS in the congregational polity you describe. Each congregation can determine it's own method of "doing church" as long as it doesn't violate the churches constitutional documents, The Westminster Standards and the Book of Church Order.

Which means you can attend a PCA church in Colorado, NY, Vermont, TX and they will all be different. Didn't use to be that way. This also means you'll have folks show up in all manner of dress and attitude. Our particular church has attracted folks from different backgrounds, which influences how they approach and prepare for worship. About 5 years ago, maybe a little more, you could walk into one of those PCA churches and it would be pretty much the same.

After our General Assembly this year ( GA, similar to ya'lls convention ) we had some issues come up which may begin to push the church into a "seeker" type approach for some of the congregations in the PCA. There are also some churches that put a heavy focus on "missional" work. It's as if the way church as been done for centuries here in America just wasn't good enough, so we have to put a focus on something else. The music, worship, missional, whatever.

Another thing that makes this all so difficult to think through is our pastor does have some Luther leanings. He's a White Horse Inn fan and enjoys Rod Rosenbladt. I think through that show and some of Luther's writings, he's tried to get to Law Gospel preaching, but we don't see it every Sunday.

Also, during our weekly communion, on occasion he has been known to say "in, with, under" but only in a Spiritual sense, not a Real sense. Which I'm still working through trying to find the "real" difference.

So for Lutheran specific type questions, is this a good forum? Or should I go up one to Theologia Crucis - Lutherans ?

 

[QuiltAngel]

I would recommend that you stay here for Lutheran specific types of questions. Why? In TCL, you will receive answers from the more liberal side of Lutheranism and many times it gets confusing. You may also get more social/political type answers which may or may not reflect what the Bible says.

We, in this part of the Lutheran forum lean towards the confessional side, which means we hold to the Bible and to the Lutheran Confessions which we believe interpret the Bible correctly.

Do we have congregations which stray? Yes.

Also, it does not surprise me that the community you are in leans towards a blended or contemporary type service. It was the baby boomers who pushed for this type of service. They used the idea that it would draw younger people in, which it did for a time. But, it seemed to be more of the culture of the boomers. I am a boomer, but do not agree with the idea of a contemporary service.

I have three children in their twenties. They have all sought out a more liturgical service and they are not alone in that desire. They don't want to be entertained. You will also find areas that have more contemporary services than liturgical and vice versa. In my area, there are quite a number of us who still worship with the confessional liturgical service. We also have some with a blended service, but you don't have to go far to find one of each type.

It also use to be that we could travel and know exactly what worship would be like. Now, we don't know this either. My family searches out those with the liturgy to worship with.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tangible]

Also, the particular Sunday of the month you visit determines which style of worship you may encounter. We worship out of the Lutheran Service Book (liturgical) on the 2nd and 4th Sundays and have a blended service on the other Sundays. I would much prefer all traditional liturgical, but I guess it is what it is for now.

The thing that particularly bugs me about the blended service is that there is no clear, unambiguous confession and absolution. The confession portion often repeats something like "If we have ..." and mentions weirdly specific areas we might have failed in - instead of "we are by nature sinful and unclean ... we have sinned in thought, word and deed and justly deserve your present and eternal punishment." The absolution is equally noncommittal, something like "we thank you that our sins are forgiven in Christ" instead of "by the command and in the stead of our Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins."

Maybe I just don't appreciate the subtleties, but I have a strong desire to clearly confess my absolute sinfulness before God and to hear Jesus Christ speaking through the pastor, declaring to me that for Christ's sake alone my sins are all absolutely forgiven.

 

[RadMan]

Also, the particular Sunday of the month you visit determines which style of worship you may encounter. We worship out of the Lutheran Service Book (liturgical) on the 2nd and 4th Sundays and have a blended service on the other Sundays. I would much prefer all traditional liturgical, but I guess it is what it is for now.

The thing that particularly bugs me about the blended service is that there is no clear, unambiguous confession and absolution. The confession portion often repeats something like "If we have ..." and mentions weirdly specific areas we might have failed in - instead of "we are by nature sinful and unclean ... we have sinned in thought, word and deed and justly deserve your present and eternal punishment." The absolution is equally noncommittal, something like "we thank you that our sins are forgiven in Christ" instead of "by the command and in the stead of our Lord Jesus Christ, I forgive you all your sins."

Maybe I just don't appreciate the subtleties, but I have a strong desire to clearly confess my absolute sinfulness before God and to hear Jesus Christ speaking through the pastor, declaring to me that for Christ's sake alone my sins are all absolutely forgiven.

Rev. Rick Stuckwisch posted a fair synopsis of the definition or liturgy. This was done in answer to the COP's report in 2009 called "A series of thesis on worship"

Four and Twenty+ Blackbirds: Thirty-Five Theses on Liturgy and Adiaphora





.

 

[Tangible]

Good stuff, Rad. I'll have to take some time to study that.

 

[Studeclunker]

Yes, I find myself appologizing to my children and others of their generation for my own generation.

We of the Baby Boomer generation insist on having it our way. We want everything based on Burger King. Often that includes Church. I find Boomers insist on what they want in exclusion to what is right, proper, or attractive to anyone else. Of course, that goes to show on everything in our society now days. Everything is pandering to the 'Boomers' and will continue to do so for at least twenty more years.

Lord have mercy on all of us.

Yes, I really enjoyed attending Rod's church for several years. He is an entertaining teacher and very informative. I guess that comes from being a University Professor, LOL. Also, what he doesn't have time to explain, Rod will send you to the books for. Redeemer (Huntington Beach Ca) had a very extensive library that had a great deal of out-of-print materials. It was absolute heaven! To my lasting disapointment, I have yet to find a Church with such a good library yet. In fact, the Church I attended in Riverside, CA actually threw out their library! They wanted to use the room for something more important. I found out about this after it was fait acompli. Otherwise I would have shown up with boxes and taken the whole thing home.

 

[DaRev]

After our General Assembly this year ( GA, similar to ya'lls convention ) we had some issues come up which may begin to push the church into a "seeker" type approach for some of the congregations in the PCA. There are also some churches that put a heavy focus on "missional" work. It's as if the way church as been done for centuries here in America just wasn't good enough, so we have to put a focus on something else. The music, worship, missional, whatever. ?

Whaddya know? The PCA's version of Ablaze!

 

[RadMan]

Yes, I find myself appologizing to my children and others of their generation for my own generation.

We of the Baby Boomer generation insist on having it our way. We want everything based on Burger King. Often that includes Church. I find Boomers insist on what they want in exclusion to what is right, proper, or attractive to anyone else. Of course, that goes to show on everything in our society now days. Everything is pandering to the 'Boomers' and will continue to do so for at least twenty more years.

Lord have mercy on all of us.

Yes, I really enjoyed attending Rod's church for several years. He is an entertaining teacher and very informative. I guess that comes from being a University Professor, LOL. Also, what he doesn't have time to explain, Rod will send you to the books for. Redeemer (Huntington Beach Ca) had a very extensive library that had a great deal of out-of-print materials. It was absolute heaven! To my lasting disapointment, I have yet to find a Church with such a good library yet. In fact, the Church I attended in Riverside, CA actually threw out their library! They wanted to use the room for something more important. I found out about this after it was fait acompli. Otherwise I would have shown up with boxes and taken the whole thing home.

We have over 50 thousand books at our disposal. That also includes the pastor's library and an additional library that is larger than a house and holds volumes from all denominations. Plus a publishing company in the same complex with hundreds of other Christian books.

 

[Studeclunker]

We have over 50 thousand books at our disposal. That also includes the pastor's library and an additional library that is larger than a house and holds volumes from all denominations. Plus a publishing company in the same complex with hundreds of other Christian books.

Fifty thousand books???? Sounds like heaven! Shoot, your Church's library is larger than the entire county library collection in Trinity County! What a treasure trove! Now that's what I call a vacation destination.