Introducing "Dark Matter"

[Michael]

That link has left me more confused, I think. You mention a few different scientific advances and then at the very end say these things simply god. Not following that.

Anyway, what kind of experiment could you build that would test the existence or nature of god?

I suggested one type of experiment that would attempt to measure the EM fields both inside *and outside* of a human brain to look for interactions during prayer and meditation. It would need to be something along the lines of this study, only it would need to measure the EM fields EXTERNAL to the brain during the same period of time.

Wired 14.02: Buddha on the Brain

Where does "dark matter" come from?

 

[Michael]

You're getting hung up on the name 'dark matter.' It is called that because it, whatever it is, affects the curvature of space in ways that matter does.

IMO you're hung up on finding some need for NON NORMAL brands of matter, when all the current and most recent evidence suggests that nothing like such a leap of faith in the unseen (in the lab) is necessary or warranted. All the current evidence suggest that our MASS ESTIMATION TECHNIQUES JUST STINK!

It is not necessary nor even implied that this substance is literally a material, it could be from some other mechanism, but it behaves as matter would but lacks the luminescence that matter should have so they call it 'dark.'

You missed the point of those first three links. Those were all examples of "missing mass" that requires nothing particularly "new" to exist in nature.

 

[acropolis]

I suggested one type of experiment that would attempt to measure the EM fields both inside *and outside* of a human brain to look for interactions during prayer and meditation. It would need to be something along the lines of this study, only it would need to measure the EM fields EXTERNAL to the brain during the same period of time.

Wired 14.02: Buddha on the Brain

Where does "dark matter" come from?

What exactly is your null hypothesis in this proposed experiment? What do EM waves have to do with god?

IMO you're hung up on finding some need for NON NORMAL brands of matter, when all the current and most recent evidence suggests that nothing like such a leap of faith in the unseen (in the lab) is necessary or warranted. All the current evidence suggest that our MASS ESTIMATION TECHNIQUES JUST STINK!

So you believe that the mass is normal mass that is just not luminescent for some reason not currently understood? If you have superior methods of mass estimation you could make yourself famous by solving the current mystery surrounding the source of dark matter.

 

[Michael]

What exactly is your null hypothesis in this proposed experiment?

A NULL hypothesis would show no two way EM interactions between the brain and the external environment.

What do EM waves have to do with god?

The same thing EM waves have to do with human awareness.

So you believe that the mass is normal mass that is just not luminescent for some reason not currently understood?

I just showed you three "understood" reasons. All of them suggest our galaxy mass estimation techniques are TERRIBLE at correctly estimating even the actual number of STARS in a given galaxy!

If you have superior methods of mass estimation you could make yourself famous by solving the current mystery surrounding the source of dark matter.

I'd personally start by arranging all those "smaller" stars that we just "discovered" along the outside of the disk, along with more "normal" materials in general.

If those four recent falsifications for exotic brands of matter don't diminish your faith in exotic types of matter, what will?

 

[acropolis]

A NULL hypothesis would show no two way EM interactions between the brain and the external environment.

Of course EM waves are going to interact with the brain. Magnetic fields also interact with it. That's because it's made of matter just like everything else.

The same thing EM waves have to do with human awareness.

EM waves are involved in all of chemistry, so they are involved in the brain, but what does that have to do with god?

I just showed you three "understood" reasons. All of them suggest our galaxy mass estimation techniques are TERRIBLE at correctly estimating even the actual number of STARS in a given galaxy!

Every time you capitalize something it sounds like you're YELLING ABOUT SCIENCE ON THE INTERNET and it makes your posts funny to read. If people are already publishing about better methods, why get worked up about it? Scientific theories get refined and superseded all the time, it's not a big deal.

I'd personally start by arranging all those "smaller" stars that we just "discovered" along the outside of the disk, along with more "normal" materials in general.

OK. It seems as if you're putting quotes around words at random. I'm actually having a lot of trouble connecting your ideas into any cohesive whole and suspect you might be a bit unhinged.

If those four recent falsifications for exotic brands of matter don't diminish your faith in exotic types of matter, what will?

I don't have faith in exotic matter. 'Dark matter' could be any number of things. I'm not going to assume it's one or the other, I'll let further experiments decide that.

 

[Michael]

Of course EM waves are going to interact with the brain. Magnetic fields also interact with it. That's because it's made of matter just like everything else.

But we wouldn't necessarily expect any EXTERNAL EM fields to change as a result of INTERNAL processes. It's HOW the brain "interacts" with the external EM fields that we're curious about.

EM waves are involved in all of chemistry, so they are involved in the brain, but what does that have to do with god?

I just told you. The macroscopic EM fields of the universe give rise to a macroscopic awareness that we call "God".

Every time you capitalize something it sounds like you're YELLING ABOUT SCIENCE ON THE INTERNET and it makes your posts funny to read. If people are already publishing about better methods, why get worked up about it? Scientific theories get refined and superseded all the time, it's not a big deal.

Ok.

I don't have faith in exotic matter. 'Dark matter' could be any number of things. I'm not going to assume it's one or the other, I'll let further experiments decide that.

I'm not "assuming" anything I can't already demonstrate. I just demonstrated that we incorrectly estimated the proper number and the proper size of stars in various galaxies. We have strong evidence that our galaxy mass estimation techniques are seriously flawed.

It's interesting to me that you're more than willing to evoke an "exotic dark matter of gaps" argument when it suits you, but you seem unwilling to even entertain the possibility that the universe itself is "aware". Why? Awareness manifest itself here on Earth. You can't even tell me where exotic types of matter might come from. Why is it suddenly "ok" to evoke a "magic matter of the gaps" argument when I've already demonstrated that our mass estimation techniques are flawed?

 

[acropolis]

But we wouldn't necessarily expect any EXTERNAL EM fields to change as a result of INTERNAL processes. It's HOW the brain "interacts" with the external EM fields that we're curious about.

The skull isn't shielded against EM fields, so whenever electrics move at all within the brain there will be a very small external field produced. Brain functions can be affected by EM fields, but they must be strong, and the effect is minor. The magnitude of these macroscopic EM waves won't be strong enough to do much of anything to the brain, and the small EM fields generated by the brain won't be able to do much of anything even to spaces nearby the brain, let alone EM fields on cosmic scales.

I just told you. The macroscopic EM fields of the universe give rise to a macroscopic awareness that we call "God".

That is a pretty huge leap of logic.

Is this the Christian god that is made of EM waves or just a generic god type being? Does this god perform miracles and answer prayers? How do you know it's one kind of god and not another? Does it speak to you?

It's interesting to me that you're more than willing to evoke an "exotic dark matter of gaps" argument when it suits you, but you seem unwilling to even entertain the possibility that the universe itself is "aware". Why? Awareness manifest itself here on Earth. You can't even tell me where exotic types of matter might come from. Why is it suddenly "ok" to evoke a "magic matter of the gaps" argument when I've already demonstrated that our mass estimation techniques are flawed?

I never called it exotic matter, that's a phrase you keep repeating for some reason, as if it really, really offends you. I don't know what dark matter is, only that it is a measurable force. It could be normal matter that, for reasons we don't understand, doesn't interact with light in a normal way, or it could be some other effect. It might be something that only comes in to play at very large length scales, etc. It is an unknown. Much like the interior of a black hole there isn't much to be said about it at this point, but perhaps in the future there will be.

If the universe is aware in the way that humans are aware it will need some kind of network of logic gates, like neurons. No such structure exists that we are aware of. If there is a macro network like that the time scales on which the universe would 'think' would be far greater that than of a human, if only because of the speed of light limiting the speed of information transfer. There is also no reason to believe that this thinking universe would even be aware let alone deeply concerned about the goings on of a particular creature on a particular planet among so many billions, any more than a human is deeply concerned about a specific skin cell. That kind of god is totally disconnected from humanity and whether or not it exists means nothing to us.

 

[Michael]

The skull isn't shielded against EM fields, so whenever electrics move at all within the brain there will be a very small external field produced. Brain functions can be affected by EM fields, but they must be strong, and the effect is minor.

Actually, it you read through that link, you'll find a link to research on a "God helmet" that demonstrates that intelligently guided external EM fields are capable of producing some fairly significant effects inside the brain.

The magnitude of these macroscopic EM waves won't be strong enough to do much of anything to the brain, and the small EM fields generated by the brain won't be able to do much of anything even to spaces nearby the brain, let alone EM fields on cosmic scales.

Checkout that link on the God helmet. You can probably Google it too. The effect isn't necessarily as small as you imagine. Many of the participants compared it to a "spiritual" experience, for good reason IMO.

That is a pretty huge leap of logic.

Not really. There are numerous and exotic examples of interwoven circuitry giving rise to awareness in physical material on Earth. What is so "huge" about the connection of EM fields to awareness other than the scaling factors required?

Compared to "dark matter did it", or "dark energy did it", or "inflation did it"? Talk about pure LEAPS of faith. When has dark energy ever "accelerated" even a single atom on Earth?

Is this the Christian god that is made of EM waves or just a generic god type being?

It would necessarily just be "God". Christians wouldn't own the universe any more than Hindus own the universe.

Does this god perform miracles and answer prayers?

Define "miracles". I tend to favor the laws of physics myself. I doubt I fully understand ALL of those laws however. A being of ancient origin and greater sophistication is likely to be able to MANIPULATE such laws in ways I can't possibly fathom at the moment, but I would still expect such events to be explainable at the level of actual physics in one way or another, even I can't personally do so.

How do you know it's one kind of god and not another?

You're confusing kinds of "religions", with kinds of UNIVERSES. There's only one kind of universe/God but religions are about a dime a dozen.

Does it speak to you?

It "interacts" with me. I "hear" the universe, but typically not in English sentences.

I never called it exotic matter, that's a phrase you keep repeating for some reason, as if it really, really offends you.

You're right about one thing, the concept of exotic forms of matter does tend to "offend" me personally a bit, particularly as it's applied to the topic of space. While you PERSONALLY may not necessarily believe that dark matter is not "typical" in nature, the "Official Dogma" say's otherwise:

Dark Energy, Dark Matter - NASA Science

We are much more certain what dark matter is not than we are what it is. First, it is dark, meaning that it is not in the form of stars and planets that we see.

I just showed you recent links that suggest that dark matter *IS* actually composed of small stars we underestimated and large mass stars we underestimated too. I'll give you personal wiggle room however, because the term "dark matter' was pretty much equated with MACHO forms of dark matter when I was in college. It's only "morphed" into metaphysical mythology in the last couple of decades.

I don't know what dark matter is, only that it is a measurable force. It could be normal matter that, for reasons we don't understand, doesn't interact with light in a normal way, or it could be some other effect.

That puts you ahead of "party line dogma" already.

It might be something that only comes in to play at very large length scales, etc. It is an unknown. Much like the interior of a black hole there isn't much to be said about it at this point, but perhaps in the future there will be.

It's interesting that you leave so much room for "large length scales", yet resist the concept of large scale awareness.

If the universe is aware in the way that humans are aware it will need some kind of network of logic gates, like neurons. No such structure exists that we are aware of.

Every sun has trillions of "circuits" flowing though just the outside atmosphere that we can actually observe, let alone what goes in inside the interior of that structure. A galaxy is nothing more than a network of intwoven circuitry according to Hannes Alfven the guy that wrote the book on plasma physics and how it should be properly applied to events in space.

If there is a macro network like that the time scales on which the universe would 'think' would be far greater that than of a human, if only because of the speed of light limiting the speed of information transfer.

You're "assuming" the "thinking" process takes place "globally" rather than locally (in suns) and globally in clusters. I see no reason to make such an assumption.

There is also no reason to believe that this thinking universe would even be aware let alone deeply concerned about the goings on of a particular creature on a particular planet among so many billions, any more than a human is deeply concerned about a specific skin cell.

You're right, but then we wouldn't expect all those humans throughout human history to report having an active relationship with something they call God if that were the case.

That kind of god is totally disconnected from humanity and whether or not it exists means nothing to us.

Disconnected? How is that even possible? We would necessarily be living INSIDE of a living organism. No "disconnection" is possible at the level of physics, even if I personally remain "unaware" of God's presence and God's awareness.

 

[idscience]

Thank you for your reply!
)Dark Matter is a hypothesis, used to explain 80-85% of the matter in the universe.
and yet at most those objects are conjectured to consist of only 15% of matter in the universe.
that this "leaves one big whack" of matter unaccounted for.
JoY

This is only true if the model is right. Dark matter is used to make the hypothesis work.

I am too poor to be rich so I must have more money in my bank account than what shows in my bank book.

 

[FreethinkerWWJD]

You're right, but then we wouldn't expect all those humans throughout human history to report having an active relationship with something they call God if that were the case.

Well, people have been attributing things they don't understand to gods and spirits long before the Hebrews ever picked up a stone chisel.

I think the concept of God is a perfectly natural phenomenon that would probably arise even without divine influence.

Disconnected? How is that even possible? We would necessarily be living INSIDE of a living organism. No "disconnection" is possible at the level of physics, even if I personally remain "unaware" of God's presence and God's awareness.

I think he means that if the universe had a conscientiousness, it's a leap to assume that it would want to interact with us small humans... much less that it cares about how we boil our baby goats or what we do with our genitalia.

 

[Michael]

Well, people have been attributing things they don't understand to gods and spirits long before the Hebrews ever picked up a stone chisel.

That would be called a "successful prediction" of this particular cosmology theory.

I think the concept of God is a perfectly natural phenomenon that would probably arise even without divine influence.

Well, I agree it's a perfectly natural phenomenon alright.

I think he means that if the universe had a conscientiousness, it's a leap to assume that it would want to interact with us small humans... much less that it cares about how we boil our baby goats or what we do with our genitalia.

I agreed with him that there isn't a GUARANTEE that God would NECESSARILY interact with humans, but MANY humans have reported just such incidences, whereas absolutely no humans I've met or read about have ever claimed to have any personal experiences with "dark matter".

 

[idscience]

Has Dark Matter Gone Missing?

 

[Doveaman]

Has Dark Matter Gone Missing?

I am of the opinion that if matter is missing, then the gravity it generates will also be missing.

But for some reason I'm constantly being told that the gravity is not missing despite the fact that the matter that generates it is missing.

To me it sounds like gravity can exist without matter.

In big bang cosmology it seems like anything is possible.

 

[idscience]

I am of the opinion that if matter is missing, then the gravity it generates will also be missing.

But for some reason I'm constantly being told that the gravity is not missing despite the fact that the matter that generates it is missing.

To me it sounds like gravity can exist without matter.

In big bang cosmology it seems like anything is possible.

Maybe the understanding of gravity is missing.

 

[DaneaFL]

I am of the opinion that if matter is missing, then the gravity it generates will also be missing.

But for some reason I'm constantly being told that the gravity is not missing despite the fact that the matter that generates it is missing.

To me it sounds like gravity can exist without matter.

In big bang cosmology it seems like anything is possible.

I remember seeing something about how they found out that most of the universe's mass is actually in empty space. something like 90% the mass of an atom is actually in the space between the particles.
and if you extrapolate that out to the whole universe, then 90% of the universe's mass and gravity actually come from empty space.

 

[Doveaman]

I remember seeing something about how they found out that most of the universe's mass is actually in empty space.

I am of the opinion that if the space is empty, then there can be no mass within it.

But I could be wrong.

 

[[serious]]

I am of the opinion that if the space is empty, then there can be no mass within it.

But I could be wrong.

I think you could have light moving through that empty space thus providing an energy density which in turn produces a gravitational field.

EDIT: that still wouldn't be mass though

 

[Nabobalis]

I remember seeing something about how they found out that most of the universe's mass is actually in empty space. something like 90% the mass of an atom is actually in the space between the particles.
and if you extrapolate that out to the whole universe, then 90% of the universe's mass and gravity actually come from empty space.

I think up to 99% of the volume of an atom is empty space. Some of the mass comes from the strong force bonds between constituent parts of a nucleus.

 

[NGC 6712]

I think up to 99% of the volume of an atom is empty space. Some of the mass comes from the strong force bonds between constituent parts of a nucleus.

If you go by the electron orbital radii and the nuclear radii it is roughly 99.9999999999999%.

 

[Jazer]

I am of the opinion that if the space is empty, then there can be no mass within it.

But I could be wrong.

Does that apply to empty headed people?