Intersexuals..

[Miracle Storm]

And God Created.....

I used to be one who thought I knew everything God created and also thought it was all held within a little book...a book which ruled my life and beliefs.

So what about babies born intersexual or those intersexuals that do not find out until puberty?

Who gets the right to determine if they are more male or female and assign the sexual identity either by surgery or hormones?
What if they want to stay the way they are, both male and female representative...? That is the way God created them afterall..

Curious to know the thoughts on intersexuals and if there is the same kind of discrimination against them as homosexuals...and what Scripture could possibly be pointed to when faced with the persons option to have a male or female partner...having there sex chosen for them or choosing theirself..

I posted something similar to this in another thread, but alas no response...
So say there is a intersexual born with both female and male properties..
The doctors assign this person a male...But as this "male" grows older it's obvious "he" is more female than male..So would this person be gay to be with a male or would this person be gay to be with a female...

 

[david_x]

Matthew 19:12
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

 

[Miracle Storm]

Matthew 19:12
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

...As if that answered any of the above...doesn't.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eunuch
A eunuch is a man without a penis or testes that are not fully functioning...
How does that explain intersexuals born both with male parts and female...and which partners they should take?

 

[david_x]

It's pretty much the same. Bottom line is that it doesn't matter, they are accepted into the Church.

 

[Brieuse]

...As if that answered any of the above...doesn't.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eunuch
A eunuch is a man without a penis or testes that are not fully functioning...
How does that explain intersexuals born both with male parts and female...and which partners they should take?

Modern definition, yes.

 

[HaloHope]

And God Created.....

I used to be one who thought I knew everything God created and also thought it was all held within a little book...a book which ruled my life and beliefs.

So what about babies born intersexual or those intersexuals that do not find out until puberty?

Who gets the right to determine if they are more male or female and assign the sexual identity either by surgery or hormones?
What if they want to stay the way they are, both male and female representative...? That is the way God created them afterall..

Curious to know the thoughts on intersexuals and if there is the same kind of discrimination against them as homosexuals...and what Scripture could possibly be pointed to when faced with the persons option to have a male or female partner...having there sex chosen for them or choosing theirself..

I posted something similar to this in another thread, but alas no response...
So say there is a intersexual born with both female and male properties..
The doctors assign this person a male...But as this "male" grows older it's obvious "he" is more female than male..So would this person be gay to be with a male or would this person be gay to be with a female...

Interesting thread, Imho gender is a state of mind anyway:- and people eventually know what gender they are comfortable in and should be. If someone realizes in later life they need to change their gender to be more comfortable in themselves (whether they were born intersexed, had a gender chosen from them after birth in which they were born intersex, or born one sex but with the mind of another) thats fine. It's not "rejecting Gods design" its merely correcting something that went wrong at birth or correcting a decision that was made without their input. Simple as that really.

Of course if someone was born intersexed and felt comfortable remaning intersexed thats fine too.

Oh and regardless of the situation I don't think God cares if they end up with a guy or girl.

 

[Criada]

How can anyone condemn these poor people for the way they are born? I cannot see how it is 'gay' whichever gender they are attracted to.
Whatever the debate on homosexuality, no-one can deny that this is a genetic problem, and no more to be held against somebody than Down's syndrome or a growth deficiency.
Rather, we should be praying for those whose life is incredibly challenging and painful through no fault of their own.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

Birth defects are a fact of life. Biology, though, clearly shows that humans are usually born male or female. We know quite clearly how humans develop in utero. And the same God who gave us faith gave us reason (and the capacity for science).

Through birth defects, some of us lose hearing, some sight, some intelligence and motor skills, some of us genitalia. Being born with a disability doesn't entitle you to special privileges or theological exceptions to rules, however unfortunately. (A blind person can't go around molesting people simply because he can't see them.)

Basically, I think doctors are able to determine what sex the child should have been in the vast majority of cases; the typical conclusion is that birth defects, like all other pollution in the world, are a result of our own sin. Thus, if the child's genetics (chromosomes, etc.) dictate it should be male, then he should be male ... I think true hermaphroditism is extremely rare, and in that case, it's up to the person to decide ... I think most intersexuals typically pick a gender on their own and identify with it. I would be very interested to see if my conclusions are true or false -- that is, if intersexuals who have male chromosomes actually decide to live as women, and vice versa. (I would think that they would sort themselves out, albeit with trouble.)

This post turned out longer than I intended.

 

[Criada]

Your link is to a developmental defect, which is easily corrected.
This is not the same as intersexuality... the whole point is that doctors can't tell what gender an individual who is genetically XXY or XYY 'should' be! And it mat, theologically be the result of sin... but that doesn't mean that the person concerned is any more sinful than anyone else.

 

[Stinker]

Your link is to a developmental defect, which is easily corrected.
This is not the same as intersexuality... the whole point is that doctors can't tell what gender an individual who is genetically XXY or XYY 'should' be! And it mat, theologically be the result of sin... but that doesn't mean that the person concerned is any more sinful than anyone else.

This is interesting.

I wonder, would males that have always had the persona of a female, have the genes found in females? These Transexual males?

 

[Tenebrae]

Also, what about cultures that decide to raise males as females

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~suaava/pages/fafafine.htm


Tongan culture, and other island cultures also do this practice. Should someone be condemmed because their parents decided to raise them as a girl

 

[Apollo Celestio]

Birth defects are a fact of life. Biology, though, clearly shows that humans are usually born male or female. We know quite clearly how humans develop in utero. And the same God who gave us faith gave us reason (and the capacity for science).

Through birth defects, some of us lose hearing, some sight, some intelligence and motor skills, some of us genitalia. Being born with a disability doesn't entitle you to special privileges or theological exceptions to rules, however unfortunately. (A blind person can't go around molesting people simply because he can't see them.)

Basically, I think doctors are able to determine what sex the child should have been in the vast majority of cases; the typical conclusion is that birth defects, like all other pollution in the world, are a result of our own sin. Thus, if the child's genetics (chromosomes, etc.) dictate it should be male, then he should be male ... I think true hermaphroditism is extremely rare, and in that case, it's up to the person to decide ... I think most intersexuals typically pick a gender on their own and identify with it. I would be very interested to see if my conclusions are true or false -- that is, if intersexuals who have male chromosomes actually decide to live as women, and vice versa. (I would think that they would sort themselves out, albeit with trouble.)

This post turned out longer than I intended.

Interesting post, can't you kind of relate?

To OP, I don't know.

 

[Miracle Storm]

Birth defects are a fact of life.

Out of curiousity is your main source of news usually from online tabloids...? I have never trusted those magazines..
As to your link the doctors did not need to determine his gender, or sexual orientation for that matter, by removing an extra penis on his back if that is even true...
It seems those who perform these surgeries and assigning gender are also deciding their future sexual orientation if we believed and followed what some say is their inerant "truth"

Biology, though, clearly shows that humans are usually born male or female. We know quite clearly how humans develop in utero. And the same God who gave us faith gave us reason (and the capacity for science).

Since it occurs that babies are born and cannot be determined if the child is male or female so ONE gender is CHOSEN for them = intersexual...it seems entirely possible to me that the same thing happens to people whom are "gay"...except from being physically apparent it is body versus brain...which is not so easily seen eh...?
This is interesting,
See how a girl could not even marry a male because her birth certificate could not be changed from male to female (remember that whole man can't marry man thing)....even though she developed breasts at puberty..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6994580/

Through birth defects, some of us lose hearing, some sight, some intelligence and motor skills, some of us genitalia. Being born with a disability doesn't entitle you to special privileges or theological exceptions to rules, however unfortunately. (A blind person can't go around molesting people simply because he can't see them.)

I fail to see how this has anything to do with the subject at hand..
Are you saying because they are born with characteristics that are both male and female that sex ever would be wrong..?
Or would it only be wrong to you if they were assigned a particular sex and then ended up being attracted to that same sex?

There are many who are blind and deaf that would take offense at you calling them defects btw...because to them they are totally whole..
I suspect intersexuals feel that way as well until/unless people decide they have to be a certain way that goes against the way they were made..
It is almost like calling it a sin if a person is born blind, but cannot force theirself to see when you someone trys to force a gender or sexual preference on one that was born with both traits...wouldn't you say..?

Basically, I think doctors are able to determine what sex the child should have been in the vast majority of cases; the typical conclusion is that birth defects, like all other pollution in the world, are a result of our own sin.

Seriously is that what you would tell anyone that is not up to par with your specific gene code? It is sin...
anything from medications, to infections and viruses can cause birth defects..
Of course abusing drugs/alcohol which may be the sin you refer to can as well..

But around 60% still remains unknown if this link is correct, but I highly doubt it is from OUR sin...unless you are blaming it totally on the fall of man well than that is a whole other theological subject/debate.

Thus, if the child's genetics (chromosomes, etc.) dictate it should be male, then he should be male ... I think true hermaphroditism is extremely rare, and in that case, it's up to the person to decide ... I think most intersexuals typically pick a gender on their own and identify with it.

What about when the doctor decides for them?
As for its rarity, please view this link from the intersexual society of North America..Maybe 1 in every 1500-2000 in it's most noticable form, but check out the more subtle intersexuals and the numbers..

I would be very interested to see if my conclusions are true or false -- that is, if intersexuals who have male chromosomes actually decide to live as women, and vice versa. (I would think that they would sort themselves out, albeit with trouble.)

Yes let us pray they can and maybe judgemental attitudes can let up a little so that people can be who God created them to be

This post turned out longer than I intended.

eh, it happens...

 

[Miracle Storm]

I find myself wondering why those who usually post so confidently not posting in this thread...

Is it that the answers are so obvious that I am missing it and it is not worth your time?
Is it that the answers are tough and so to post you would have to rethink your beliefs?
Is it because there is not an answer in the bible for it?

If you accept the fact that a person is born with male and female physical characteristics is it so hard to fathom that parts of the brain can have male 'characteristics' when the body appears female?

 

[david_x]

If you accept the fact that a person is born with male and female physical characteristics is it so hard to fathom that parts of the brain can have male 'characteristics' when the body appears female?

I can say only one thing with complete certainty. People born this way can bring glory to Him.

 

[Miracle Storm]

I can say only one thing with complete certainty. People born this way can bring glory to Him.

By being willing to accept theirselves as God made them and help others to do the same?
I would agree.
Psalm 139:

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

 

[BreadAlone]

But by that logic, then people who were born as conjoined twins should just "stay that way" and "accept themselves." People are born deformed and degenerate as a result of sin, not as a result of God.

By being willing to accept theirselves as God made them and help others to do the same?
I would agree.
Psalm 139:

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

 

[Miracle Storm]

But by that logic, then people who were born as conjoined twins should just "stay that way" and "accept themselves." People are born deformed and degenerate as a result of sin, not as a result of God.

So lemme guess you are a major advocate of plastic surgery? Nothing wrong with that...
Anything could be seen as a deformity if it doesn't conform to others standards..
Breast not big enough, (That must be a deformity if my sister's breasts are bigger!)make 'em bigger.
Tummy not small enough (the result of food deforming your belly) get it suctioned.
Stretch marks, wow those are a deformity ( Must change it)...Can't just accept stretch marks because then you would have to believe that conjoined twins should just "stay that way"..
woa there that is a s t r e t c h..

Your trying to compare apples to oranges here Daniel...Brain funtion is different than another body attached confining your movement or endangering your health...

 

[BreadAlone]

It may have been a bit of a stretch. But nevertheless, I would say using Psalm 139 to condone sin is one also..

 

[Miracle Storm]

It may have been a bit of a stretch. But nevertheless, I would say using Psalm 139 to condone sin is one also..

I'm sure I don't know what you are talking about.
Prove that it is sin, that is what doh is for afterall.
So just saying it is sin isn't really much of a debate tatic, only your opinion.