Interesting view on Abortion - Please Participate (FOR EVERY MEMBERS OF THE FORUM)

[Nycky]

Nycky said:
It's not just cause and effect, it's also intent. With an abortion there is an intent to kill, when there is an impregnation there is not.

So, I can ACCIDENTALLY kill as many women as I want to but I cannot intentionall kill one foetus.

Okay, works for me.

Nyc

 

[larryicr]

In no way am I arguing...All I am saying is that if women chooses to sin it is her own choice to make with out us judging her. We are not in the same place as a women who is faced with this decsion so how can we judge her? Im not being hateful to anyone who opposes abortion, nor am I judging them. My posts are only stating that we need to help these women and not condem them, how is that wrong or judgemental? I have not already judged if I believe it is a sin, I am to dislike the sin not the sinner.
We are not supposed to sin nor are we supposed to judge so just because someone sins (abortion) we should sin (judge) also?

By arguing i mean arguing for a point, not "fighting".
I did not judge the woman either, i judged the sin. I said you were judging simply because you did judge the abortion as sin - that is judging.
I never condemned the women - i condemned the sin.
If you think judging is a sin, why are we commanded to judge?

1 Cor 5:12 - For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

1 Cor 6:2-3 - Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

The reason we judge is out of love, so that the person will be spared from God's judgement. You seem to be saying you want God to judge them.

1 Cor 11:31 - But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

 

[larryicr]

So, I can ACCIDENTALLY kill as many women as I want to but I cannot intentionall kill one foetus.

That's not at all what i said.
I said that it is not only cause and effect, but also intent. Now you are acting like i said it is only intent.
My point is that you must take cause, effect, and intent into account.

If you accidentally kill someone you do not get as harsh a punishment if you kill someone with intent. That's not only true biblically, but also in our court systems.

Num 35:11 - then you shall select for yourselves cities to be your cities of refuge, that the manslayer who has killed any person unintentionally may flee there.

P.S. If you "want" to kill the women, as you posted, then it is not an "accident".

 

[Archivist]

That's not at all what i said.
I said that it is not only cause and effect, but also intent. Now you are acting like i said it is only intent.
My point is that you must take cause, effect, and intent into account.

If you accidentally kill someone you do not get as harsh a punishment if you kill someone with intent. That's not only true biblically, but also in our court systems.

Num 35:11 - then you shall select for yourselves cities to be your cities of refuge, that the manslayer who has killed any person unintentionally may flee there.

P.S. If you "want" to kill the women, as you posted, then it is not an "accident".

If someone attacks you or your loved ones with a gun, don't you have the right to defend yourself and your family and to kill the attacker if necessary? If you say yes, then why do you want to deny women the right to defend their lives when they are in danger?

 

[larryicr]

If someone attacks you or your loved ones with a gun, don't you have the right to defend yourself and your family and to kill the attacker if necessary?

My answer is NO. I know alot of people disagree with my stance.

That doesn't mean that at some point i wouldn't take someone's life, but i would consider it a sin and would repent of it. I can't predict if i would sin in that way or not, but i do consider it sin.

Look at the N.T., did Stephen defend himself as others were killing him - no.
Did Paul defend himself as others were trying to stone him to death - no.

To defend my life from an attacker would mean that i felt something bad would happen to me if i died, and i don't think that. I think something wonderful will happen when i die.
At the same time, since this attacker is in sin (trying to kill me), if i killed him where would he go? But if i let him live and give him a chance at repentance, isn't that better?

Besides all that, i put my trust in God. If someone is trying to kill me, God can take care of it. My death will happen in God's timing, no human intervention can frustrate God's plan. I believe He is in control of everything.

P.S. - There's nothing wrong with "defending" my life, it's just wrong when in doing so i take someone else's life. What makes my life worth more than his???

 

[homewardbound]

G-d uses humans as G-d's agents in many things. Should we assume that it is not G-d's will when a pregnancy is terminated?

Should a man faced with death at the hands of another defend himself up to and including killing his attacker? After all, his possible death is a tragic thing but so is the death of the assailant.

I know of many men, and some women, who far from laying down their lives for their children, endanger these young lives. Whether through abandonment, and neglect or direct violence and abuse.

Okay, one living child, about five and and an "unborn child," which one would you sacrifice?

Nyc

1. Yes, we should assume it's not God's will when a pregnancy is terminated. God doesn't use humans as his agents to carry out actions that are in conflict with His will.

2. You're comparing apples to oranges here since a fetus can't attack a woman, but I'll answer your question anyway. If a person is being attacked, of course it's ok to defend yourself, even if it escalates to the point of having to kill your assailant. Granted, it would be tragic, but that's the risk someone takes when they attack someone with the intent to kill.

By the way what's this thing about not typing out the word God? I've seen that in a few other places.

 

[Seeking...]

Maybe this has been stated already and I missed it but...

Assuming that everything happens in God's time...

How could abortions occur if it was truly against God's will?

Acts have happened in this world that many describe as miracles. Where through accident or the actions of another - someone was placed at death's door - but they didn't die - they weren't even harmed...

Why is abortion even possible if it is truly against God's will?

Man is not capable of fufilling every desire he has. Doctors and scientists do not have all the answers about how our bodies work. If we were created in God's image and created perfect as he intended then why would such an act as voluntary abortion be possible if it contravenes God's will?

 

[homewardbound]

Why is abortion even possible if it is truly against God's will?

Because he gave us the freedom to choose, and we sometimes choose to do things that are against His will. Just as we have the freedom to choose to steal, lie, cheat, gossip, etc. I think most of us would agree those things are against God's will, yet they are possible.

 

[Khrissy78]

By arguing i mean arguing for a point, not "fighting".
I did not judge the woman either, i judged the sin. I said you were judging simply because you did judge the abortion as sin - that is judging.
I never condemned the women - i condemned the sin.
If you think judging is a sin, why are we commanded to judge?

1 Cor 5:12 - For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?

1 Cor 6:2-3 - Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?

The reason we judge is out of love, so that the person will be spared from God's judgement. You seem to be saying you want God to judge them.

1 Cor 11:31 - But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged.

We can be spared God's judgement because others have judged us? or if we only judge ourselves? I thought that no matter what we will all be judged in the end? If being a Christian means that I am comanded to judge others then maybe I am in the wrong place. We are supposed to love one another and lift each other up not condem each other. If I wanted to hurt people I would join a "gang" or something. I can believe that abortion is a sin without judging the person committing the sin. I dont run around protesting or anything of that sort so how am I judging it? Because I believe it? So is believing a sin? If a women comes to me saying she has had an abortion I dont say to her "oh you have sinned! Now you must beg for forgivness!" I keep my feelings to myself and focus on her feelings, after all she is the one in despair not me. I do think abortion is wrong in most cases, but more than that I believe that all things happen for a reason. No matter what I believe, my heart is open enough to love and care for those who face this decsion. I dont see anything wrong with that at all. It's not about me and my beliefs, its about helping my brothers and sisters in their time of need.

I am not saying at all that you are wrong or that you are judging, im just responding to your posts.

 

[Nycky]

1. Yes, we should assume it's not God's will when a pregnancy is terminated. God doesn't use humans as his agents to carry out actions that are in conflict with His will.

So, G-d can will thousands of people dead, but would never will the death of one foetus?

How can you propose to know the will of G-d in all cases?

2. You're comparing apples to oranges here since a fetus can't attack a woman, but I'll answer your question anyway. If a person is being attacked, of course it's ok to defend yourself, even if it escalates to the point of having to kill your assailant. Granted, it would be tragic, but that's the risk someone takes when they attack someone with the intent to kill.

The foetus maake not take a knife to a woman, but its prescence in her womb can do harm to her and in some cases, threaten her life. If that's not an attack, however unconscious, I don't know what is.

I note, that you chose not to address my question about choosing between a living child and a foetus. You find it easier to dismiss the life of an adult woman than that of any child? How sad for the women in your life if this is true.

The Nation of Islam, a black Muslim movement in the US, has been honest enough to say that "the woman is man’s field to produce his nation." I wish Conservatice Christian men would be honest enough to admit that they agree with this sentiment.

By the way what's this thing about not typing out the word God? I've seen that in a few other places.

It a Jewish tradition that honors my relationship with the Creator and my personal expression.


Nyc

 

[larryicr]

Khrissy78,

You say that if a woman who had an abortion came to you you would not try to lead her to repentance? That's a terrible thing to do to a person. If you believe abortion is a sin, don't you think that she has distanced herself from God by committing the sin? Yet you will not lift one finger to try and help her get back into communion with God? That is not love. Love is not always easy. Love leads to the truth, not the supression of it (ie: keeping your feelings to yourself).

When I council a woman regarding abortion, I don't just leave her in the guilt and torment that she feels. I show her the forgiveness in Christ and try to lead her into repentance. When she comes to Christ and the weight of her burden is lifted, it is a wonderful thing - Praise God!

 

[homewardbound]

So, G-d can will thousands of people dead, but would never will the death of one foetus?

No, that's not what I'm saying. You're trying to make inferences that aren't there.

How can you propose to know the will of G-d in all cases?

Through the bible..that's how He speaks to us.

The foetus maake not take a knife to a woman, but its prescence in her womb can do harm to her and in some cases, threaten her life. If that's not an attack, however unconscious, I don't know what is.

Please...let's not compare the innocent existence of a fetus with an intentional act of violence.

I note, that you chose not to address my question about choosing between a living child and a foetus. You find it easier to dismiss the life of an adult woman than that of any child? How sad for the women in your life if this is true.

I chose not to answer because you provided no circumstances in your question, making it completely ambiguous.

The Nation of Islam, a black Muslim movement in the US, has been honest enough to say that "the woman is man’s field to produce his nation." I wish Conservatice Christian men would be honest enough to admit that they agree with this sentiment.

That's a ridiculous notion, and an insult to men in general. Not worth further comment.

It a Jewish tradition that honors my relationship with the Creator and my personal expression.

Cool!

 

[Seeking...]

Because he gave us the freedom to choose, and we sometimes choose to do things that are against His will. Just as we have the freedom to choose to steal, lie, cheat, gossip, etc. I think most of us would agree those things are against God's will, yet they are possible.

I respect your opinion but I whole-heartedly disagree. I don't believe that it is against God's will. Regarding biological matters - there are many things that we can't choose or control - perhaps because God considered them too important - why allow us this choice if it is so awful. I mean really - how many abortions do you think have been committed since the beginning of time? Every culture out there has at least one non-medical approach to ending a pregnancy. I would imagine it is either a part of God's will or he at least doesn't care.

 

[Khrissy78]

Khrissy78,
You say that if a woman who had an abortion came to you you would not try to lead her to repentance?That's a terrible thing to do to a person.

Not if she chooses not to Believe in Him..
How is that terrible? I am not one to push my beliefs on someone else..Dont judge me as the type to do something terrible to someone, because I am not capable of that.

If you believe abortion is a sin, don't you think that she has distanced herself from God by committing the sin? Yet you will not lift one finger to try and help her get back into communion with God?

Yes, but again I wont push my beliefs on someone whos not ready or willing to believe. All that will do is put distance between that person and myself and the point is to be there not to push them away.

Yet you will not lift one finger to try and help her get back into communion with God?

Yes, I will pray for her...

That is not love.

What a cruel thing to say...

Love is not always easy. Love leads to the truth, not the supression of it (ie: keeping your feelings to yourself).

By keeping my feelings to myself I meant that I would not sit there and make her feel worse by telling her how I think she was wrong etc..

I show her the forgiveness in Christ and try to lead her into repentance.

I wont try to lead anyone where they dont want to go just because it is what I believe. If the person I am helping is a believer or if she wants to be then yes, I would do the same.

The reason I say if she is a non believer is because I would think that most women who choose abortion have not yet expirenced His love. Believe it or not most non believers totally dislike when a Christian pushes their beliefs on them.

When she comes to Christ and the weight of her burden is lifted, it is a wonderful thing - Praise God!

Yes, Praise God! For He has lifted a few burdens off my chest so far.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

G-d uses humans as G-d's agents in many things. Should we assume that it is not G-d's will when a pregnancy is terminated?

Should a man faced with death at the hands of another defend himself up to and including killing his attacker? After all, his possible death is a tragic thing but so is the death of the assailant.
Nyc

God also made us with a strong sense of self-preservation that, while still wrong to kill, might make such an act justified.


Are you really prepared to equate someone defending their own or someone else's life, with the decision to end life based on as little as a lack of convenience?

 

[larryicr]

Khrissy78,

Yes, but again I wont push my beliefs on someone whos not ready or willing to believe.

I think you misunderstand. You seem to equate me telling someone [what i consider] truth as "pushing" them. Are you really suggeting that if i tell someone "my" truth it's pushing them into something?
I guess we can't talk with people at all then.

There is no such thing as "my" truth versus "your" truth. Truth is truth, if our truths do not match up, one of us does not have the truth.
I can only speak of the truth that i know, i can never talk from someone else's "truth" - that's for them to speak from.

Besides all of that, i don't force people into anything - i simply tell them what i believe to be the truth. Why would i keep the truth from them?
Once I tell them, normally it evolves into a conversation and much healing. But if it just stops there because they don't want to talk about it or they don't think that what i am saying is truth, then i just leave it there.

Why would i push anything? I can't change anyone's heart, only God can. God tells me to tell people the truth - especially the truth about Him. Once i tell them, my job is done. The rest is up to God.

It's a hard thing for me to grasp how you can tell me i'm pushing things onto people and insinuating judgement on me, all the while releasing from judgment anyone who pushes death onto their own child.

 

[homewardbound]

I respect your opinion but I whole-heartedly disagree. I don't believe that it is against God's will. Regarding biological matters - there are many things that we can't choose or control - perhaps because God considered them too important - why allow us this choice if it is so awful. I mean really - how many abortions do you think have been committed since the beginning of time? Every culture out there has at least one non-medical approach to ending a pregnancy. I would imagine it is either a part of God's will or he at least doesn't care.

Forgive me if this is a somewhat harsh illustration. If a child is born severely retarded, with no chance of what we would consider a normal life, that's a biological matter over which the mother had no choice or control, right? If she chose to do so, she could abandon that little one in an alley (or worse), couldn't she? I hope you would agree that's not in accordance with God's will. And yet He allows that choice, doesn't He?

Please understand that just because God makes a particular choice available to us means it's a choice He approves. He makes many choices available to us that are not in accordance with His will, and He makes them available to us because a life without choices is a life without true love.

 

[Khrissy78]

Khrissy78,

I think you misunderstand. You seem to equate me telling someone [what i consider] truth as "pushing" them. Are you really suggeting that if i tell someone "my" truth it's pushing them into something?
I guess we can't talk with people at all then.

There is no such thing as "my" truth versus "your" truth. Truth is truth, if our truths do not match up, one of us does not have the truth.
I can only speak of the truth that i know, i can never talk from someone else's "truth" - that's for them to speak from.

Besides all of that, i don't force people into anything - i simply tell them what i believe to be the truth. Why would i keep the truth from them?
Once I tell them, normally it evolves into a conversation and much healing. But if it just stops there because they don't want to talk about it or they don't think that what i am saying is truth, then i just leave it there.

Why would i push anything? I can't change anyone's heart, only God can. God tells me to tell people the truth - especially the truth about Him. Once i tell them, my job is done. The rest is up to God.

It's a hard thing for me to grasp how you can tell me i'm pushing things onto people and insinuating judgement on me, all the while releasing from judgment anyone who pushes death onto their own child.

I am sorry that you feel I was judging you...I said "I" would never push anyone..I dont see why you think that I am passing judgement on you..I never meant to direct any thing towards you. You said what you would do and I said what "I" would/would not do...Thats all...I am sorry if you took what I said the wrong way, it certainly was not meant in that way. When you post asking why would I not do this or that then my only reaction is to tell you why, not to judge you. I could take your whole post about not keeping the truth from someone or "God tells me" to tell people the truth, as you insinuating that I am a liar or that I do not listen to God (just an example, nothing more).You keep saying that I am passing judgement or "insinuating" judgmentment on you while "realeasing" judgment from anyone who has an abortion, I am sorry that you feel that way...This is a debate, you state what you believe and I do the same. I feel your comment about "that is a terrible thing to do a person" was more judgemental than any thing I have posted. Insinuating that because of what I believe that I would treat someone "terrible". Anyhow, If you feel that I was judging you then I do apologize. That was never my intention.

 

[larryicr]

Khrissy78,

I am sorry that you feel I was judging you...I said "I" would never push anyone..I dont see why you think that I am passing judgement on you

First, it is erroneously changing the topic from telling someone the truth to "pushing" someone. The implication that i push people is simply invalid.

Second, one would have to assume that you don't "push" people because you judge it to be wrong. It is also pretty obvious that this is in contrast to what you mistakenly believe my position is (pushing people). By judging yourself right for not pushing you implicitly judge me wrong for pushing.

When you post asking why would I not do this or that then my only reaction is to tell you why, not to judge you.

I never asked you why you don't "push" things onto people. What i asked you was basically why you don't tell people what you believe is the truth. I just don't understand why you keep truth to yourself. I asked nothing about forcing someone or pushing ideas onto people, simply about expressing the truth as you see it.

I don't have a problem with you judging me for anything. My problem is in the apparent hypocrisy. You posted that a woman should be able to get an abortion without having anyone judging her - that's a judgement. In posting that you judge that the woman has a right to do the abortion, but I don't have a right to judge it as wrong. Although you would like to look at yourself as non-judgemental, you really are as are the rest of us. One can't go through life without judging things.

As i posted earlier, i am not judging the person but the act. And for a while there i thought you agreed with that.

 

[Nycky]

Are you really prepared to equate someone defending their own or someone else's life, with the decision to end life based on as little as a lack of convenience?

What you may consider a lack of convienience, that woman may consider an issue of survival.
I have only know a few women who have chosen abortion. In all cases, they felt that that was their only choice. Yes, they were aware of the alternatives but after examining their conscience they decided to terminate their pregnacies, well, as it happens, within the first trimester when the foetus is not viable.

Why do we not spend as much time talking about a man's responsibility to prevent pregnancy, and therefore abortion, as well as his responsibility to born children.

Nyc