Interesting pov from a Protestant: Why I am not a Catholic

[chevyontheriver]

Confessional Lutherans such as LCMS or WELS don’t consider the ELCA to be in good standing, which Walz is a part of. I’ve heard that from numerous people online.

My opinion of the ELCA has become similar to how the LCMS and WELS look at them. It was a fast toboggan ride down the hill for the ELCA. My mom's brand of Lutheran, no smoking, no drinking, no dancing, no movies, no cards, no fraternizing with Baptists or Catholics, got subsumed eventually into the ELCA. Quite a different religion. Sad to see so many people caught up in that whirlwind.

Now I can see the LCMS and WELS looking at the Catholic Church as if it is unstable and on the verge of going woke as rapidly as the ELCA did. I pray that doesn't happen. I think those conservative Lutherans should be engaging with us Catholics. I guess we need to step it up with a good pope and show ourselves worthy of a shot. But the conservative Lutherans have to be a little less stuck up too. Being hard nosed is good but stuck up not so much.

 

[RileyG]

My opinion of the ELCA has become similar to how the LCMS and WELS look at them. It was a fast toboggan ride down the hill for the ELCA. My mom's brand of Lutheran, no smoking, no drinking, no dancing, no movies, no cards, no fraternizing with Baptists or Catholics, got subsumed eventually into the ELCA. Quite a different religion. Sad to see so many people caught up in that whirlwind.

Now I can see the LCMS and WELS looking at the Catholic Church as if it is unstable and on the verge of going woke as rapidly as the ELCA did. I pray that doesn't happen. I think those conservative Lutherans should be engaging with us Catholics. I guess we need to step it up with a good pope and show ourselves worthy of a shot. But the conservative Lutherans have to be a little less stuck up too. Being hard nosed is good but stuck up not so much.

Was your mother a Catholic convert?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Was your mother a Catholic convert?

She never did become Catholic. She left the Lutherans behind when her pastor refused to give her a recommendation to attend a Baptist nursing school. She didn't go to any church for most of her life but ended up attending a Methodist church. My father was Catholic. His dad was Methodist and became Catholic.

 

[Michie]

So many priests and others have left the wonky, more and more every day.
Charles Chiniquoy was a long time respected in Canada and Europe priest in a wonky,
and he did not mean to leave it, but was forced to ....
and his whole congregation left with him without a second thought - he had always taught them the truth .... so they stayed with him. He wrote about the evils in the book "Fifty Years in the Church" ...
it is VERY difficult to read - the abominations perpetrated by the wonky were horrible.

Oh you are into that old anti-catholic propaganda. That explains a lot. You should do some research and quite swallowing these things whole without the slightest thought that have been proven false many moons ago.

Have you read Alexander Hislop too?

Charles Chiniquy Priest

Is Charles Chiniquy Fifty Years in the Church of Rome valid

www.catholicbridge.com

Impostors

Impostors. —Under this heading we may notice a certain number of objectionable characters who, while not of sufficient importance to claim separate treatment,...

www.catholic.com

What is even worse, Boettner seems to have made little effort to learn what the Catholic Church says about itself or how Catholics answer the objections he makes. His “inside information” comes from disaffected ex-priests such as Emmett McLoughlin and L. H. Lehmann, or outright crackpots like the nineteenth-century sensationalist Charles Chiniquy.

The Anti-Catholic Bible

Loraine Boettner’s work, Roman Catholicism, is the source of many modern anti-Catholic claims, but the book is fraught with problems.

www.catholic.com

 

[mourningdove~]

I am much more firmly grounded in Catholic doctrine and Tradition than I was 11 years ago, and I think that much credit for that is account of Pope Francis. His careless and ambiguous and often self-contradictory teachings and personal examples motivated me to dive more deeply into the doctrines and traditions, and Holy Scripture, to enable me to more justly evaluate this pope in the light of so many accusations against him. The score was Catholic truth 100%, pope zero. It's not that he always speaks error, it's that his occasional true speech is immediately contradicted by his frequently false actions.

You are obviously very good at making lemonade out of lemons!

And you must know you are a teacher, gifted that way. May God continue to use your knowledge, skills, and abilities to help others who are not so able to make good lemonade out of lemons.

... Now would seem to be a time when solid (lay) teachers and mentors are greatly needed within the Body of Christ.

God bless.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

What an ignorant thing to say.

Peace be with you Michie. When confronted by an ignorant post, it is time for reflection and courage. We do want to retaliate and put them in their place, but what did Jesus tell us to do?

(Paraphrase) if you suffer persecution for my name’s sake, REJOICE. Don’t allow him to steal your joy or harm your relationship with the Lord, because that is what the spirits are trying to do to you.

Remember in your mind why you are Catholic. This is the Church that Christ founded, and we follow Him by obeying her. All other groups that call themselves Christian have given up some portion of Christian truth, all of them. They claim to follow Jesus, but follow themselves and put Jesus’ name on it. They don’t see it that way, but that is what they are doing.
Sola scriptura sounds nice, but it makes God subject to human thought rather than align human thought to God. It is a deception and a distraction.

The Catholic Church alone has the seven sacraments. The full life of the faith. The Protestants are left with the sacraments of the dead, which are baptism and confession of sins.
God has allowed it to be that way, so that He may have mercy on them. The sacraments of the dead can be received while in a state of mortal sin. While in that state, they may cry for God’s mercy. They don’t believe in Purgatory, but so what? It doesn’t mean that they may not wind up there. The outer darkness is called the place of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Pray for them, do penance for them, continue mortification of your flesh. Obey the Catholic Church and participate in the sacraments of the living, confirmation and Eucharist which cannot be received in a state of mortal sin without heaping condemnation upon ourselves. God has kept the sacraments of the living from Protestants in His mercy. Don’t worry about them. He holds them in His hands. Continue your own fight of faith to make your calling and election sure

The Catholic faith alone calls men to mortify their flesh and follow Jesus. It is the only faith that still calls contraception mortally sinful. Those that participate in it mostly do so out of ignorance but still greatly offend God. One cannot say that they follow Jesus and still participate in it. They may think they can, but it is presumptuous.
Jesus says let the dead bury their dead, follow thou me.

If Protestants retained the sacraments of the living, they would be under fierce condemnation, as it is, we can say with Our Lord, Father forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing. We do not need to get bogged down in arguments with them. I tried, it doesn’t work

Delight in the Lord always, and again I say rejoice. To make it simple, I have come up with a paraphrase of the Muslim profession of faith to focus our minds and our hearts

There is no other mediator but Jesus, and Mary is His mother. That is why I am Catholic

Scripture tells us that the enemy of the woman (Mary) is the serpent (Satan). Whoever says anything bad about her makes themselves opposed to her, aligns themselves, though unwittingly, with Satan, no matter how much they say they love Jesus. Don’t listen to their arguments against Mary

Peace be with you


PS, an idol is formed in the mind of man, fashioned by his hands to be worshipped as God.
Mary was conceived in the mind of God, fashioned by His hands, and brought forth our Savior. She is definitely no idol

 

[boughtwithaprice]

From a commentary by the Venerable Bede on St Luke's Gospel


The Magnificat


And Mary said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord, my spirit rejoices in God my Saviour.


The Lord has exalted me by a gift so great, so unheard of, that language is useless to describe it; and the depths of love in my heart can scarcely grasp it. I offer then all the powers of my soul in praise and thanksgiving. As I contemplate his greatness, which knows no limits, I joyfully surrender my whole life, my senses, my judgement, for my spirit rejoices in the eternal Godhead of that Jesus, that Saviour, whom I have conceived in this world of time.


The Almighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.


Mary looks back to the beginning of her song, where she said: My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord. Only that soul for whom the Lord in his love does great things can proclaim his greatness with fitting praise and encourage those who share her desire and purpose, saying: Join with me in proclaiming the greatness of the Lord; let us extol his name together.


Those who know the Lord, yet refuse to proclaim his greatness and sanctify his name to the limit of their power, will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven. His name is called holy because in the sublimity of his unique power he surpasses every creature and is far removed from all that he has made.


He has come to the help of his servant Israel for he has remembered his promise of mercy.


In a beautiful phrase Mary calls Israel the servant of the Lord. The Lord came to his aid to save him. Israel is an obedient and humble servant, in the words of Hosea: Israel was a servant, and I loved him.


Those who refuse to be humble cannot be saved. They cannot say with the prophet: See, God comes to my aid; the Lord is the helper of my soul. But anyone who makes himself humble like a little child is greater in the kingdom of heaven.


The promise he made to our fathers, to Abraham and his children for ever.


This does not refer to the physical descendants of Abraham, but to his spiritual children. These are his descendants, sprung not from the flesh only, but who, whether circumcised or not, have followed him in faith. Circumcised as he was, Abraham believed, and this was credited to him as an act of righteousness.


The coming of the Saviour was promised to Abraham and to his descendants for ever. These are the children of promise, to whom it is said: If you belong to Christ, then you are descendants of Abraham, heirs in accordance with the promise.


But it is right that before the birth of the Lord or of John, their mothers should utter prophecies; for just as sin began with a woman, so too does redemption. Through the deceit of one woman, grace perished; the prophecies of two women announce its return to life.

 

[fide]

You are obviously very good at making lemonade out of lemons!

And you must know you are a teacher, gifted that way. May God continue to use your knowledge, skills, and abilities to help others who are not so able to make good lemonade out of lemons.

... Now would seem to be a time when solid (lay) teachers and mentors are greatly needed within the Body of Christ.

God bless.

Setting aside whatever measure of success or failure I personally am practicing (and words can be cheap, compared to actions) you have scored a direct hit in your few words here on a real essential for all believers to recognize: God does exactly that: He "makes lemonade out of lemons"! He can draw the sweetest of drinks out of the most sour and even bitter of "fruits" of our often very imprudent lives. May God help us all to become more in this world as He is! The wise do build, even as the foolish do destroy. And the times seem to be closing in on what has been long coming: the final harvest of God's Garden.

Thank you for your words of encouragement - always a beautiful fruit within His mystical Garden.

 

[LizaMarie]

My opinion of the ELCA has become similar to how the LCMS and WELS look at them. It was a fast toboggan ride down the hill for the ELCA. My mom's brand of Lutheran, no smoking, no drinking, no dancing, no movies, no cards, no fraternizing with Baptists or Catholics, got subsumed eventually into the ELCA. Quite a different religion. Sad to see so many people caught up in that whirlwind.

Now I can see the LCMS and WELS looking at the Catholic Church as if it is unstable and on the verge of going woke as rapidly as the ELCA did. I pray that doesn't happen. I think those conservative Lutherans should be engaging with us Catholics. I guess we need to step it up with a good pope and show ourselves worthy of a shot. But the conservative Lutherans have to be a little less stuck up too. Being hard nosed is good but stuck up not so much.

As a confessional Lutheran I think they should, too. I have had sort of a fantasy for the past few years that the historical conservative Protestant small o orthodox churches(confessional Lutherans, Conservative Anglicans, the PCA, ect, all unify and become one church, along with the Catholics. I know in reality there would be a lot of barriers to get over, such as the infallibility of the Pope,(maybe not as hard as we think?)the doctrine of justification, etc. But maybe someday? I feel I have a lot more in common with traditonal Catholics than the ELCA, or super liberal protestants.

 

[Wolseley]

What came to the forefront of my mind is how confusing our witness can be as Catholics in general. It seems those in the Vatican are not doing much in the way of clarification either. What do you think? Do you think he is just mistaken and needs to research more or does he have a point?

Oh, I think he definitely has a point. He has picked up on the same thing that many devout, faithful Catholics have picked up on: that Francis, for all intents and purposes, is soft on Catholic morality, in what I would term a misguided pastoral tolerance for the lost. He seems to think that if he opens the door---just a crack---to the idolaters, the sexual oddities, the modernists, etc., that they'll come home to the Church and become good and holy members of the Faith.

Jesus invited everyone to join His Church: tax collectors, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, idolaters, and even Pharisees.....but with one caveat: He always asked them to leave behind their former way of life. Jesus compassionately forgave the woman caught in adultery (John 8:11); but He also said, "Go and sin no more." This is an aspect that Francis seems to ignore.

Hmm. I find Pope Francis far more appealing and attractive than any other Pope in my lifetime. I appreciate and value his approach, and am grateful for his contributions to the life of the wider Christian community.

From what I know of the theological stances espoused by the wider Anglican community, that does not surprise me.

So many priests and others have left the wonky, more and more every day.
Charles Chiniquoy was a long time respected in Canada and Europe priest in a wonky,
and he did not mean to leave it, but was forced to ....
and his whole congregation left with him without a second thought - he had always taught them the truth .... so they stayed with him. He wrote about the evils in the book "Fifty Years in the Church" ...
it is VERY difficult to read - the abominations perpetrated by the wonky were horrible.

Shades of Jack Chick, LOL!

Just to let you know, Aaron, what Chiniquy wrote was hogwash. Total fiction. He has misled many innocent and gullible Christians into rejecting the Catholic Faith through his nonsense, and he has influenced other anti-Catholic writers, who seem to swallow his garbage whole, without doing the slightest bit of research to ensure its accuracy---which it doesn't have in the slightest degree. Alexander Hislop, Maria Monk, Avro Manhattan, and Lorraine Boettner are all in the same canoe with him: all of their "revelations" are nothing more than complete codswallop; fiction written for denigration or profit, without the slightest smidgen of truth contained in them.

You might be interested in reading through a short book I wrote about twelve years ago and published on this very site, which refutes a lot of the usual drivel ascribed to Catholicism, specifically that put forth by Lorraine Boettner. You can find it here:

The "Boettner List": Fact or Fiction?

Anyone is free to reproduce the following material in any form, as long as the author is given full credit for the material reproduced. :) God bless all here.

www.christianforums.com

Do you think we don’t?

If he believes balderdash written by Charles Chiniquy and his ilk, then no; he thinks we don't.

Now I can see the LCMS and WELS looking at the Catholic Church as if it is unstable and on the verge of going woke as rapidly as the ELCA did. I pray that doesn't happen.

The Catholic Church will never apostatize like most of the mainstream Protestant denominations have in the past 50 years. We have Christ's word on that. That doesn't mean that many won't be led astray, both laypeople and clergy; we have Christ's word on that, too. But the solid remnant will always remain faithful, until the Lord returns again.

Oh you are into that old anti-catholic propaganda. That explains a lot.

Yes, it does.

You should do some research and quite swallowing these things whole without the slightest thought that have been proven false many moons ago.

Have you read Alexander Hislop too?

Charles Chiniquy Priest

Is Charles Chiniquy Fifty Years in the Church of Rome valid

www.catholicbridge.com

Impostors

Impostors. —Under this heading we may notice a certain number of objectionable characters who, while not of sufficient importance to claim separate treatment,...

www.catholic.com

What is even worse, Boettner seems to have made little effort to learn what the Catholic Church says about itself or how Catholics answer the objections he makes. His “inside information” comes from disaffected ex-priests such as Emmett McLoughlin and L. H. Lehmann, or outright crackpots like the nineteenth-century sensationalist Charles Chiniquy.

The Anti-Catholic Bible

Loraine Boettner’s work, Roman Catholicism, is the source of many modern anti-Catholic claims, but the book is fraught with problems.

www.catholic.com

Good sources all, Michie. Thank you for the backup.

 

[Michie]

Oh, I think he definitely has a point. He has picked up on the same thing that many devout, faithful Catholics have picked up on: that Francis, for all intents and purposes, is soft on Catholic morality, in what I would term a misguided pastoral tolerance for the lost. He seems to think that if he opens the door---just a crack---to the idolaters, the sexual oddities, the modernists, etc., that they'll come home to the Church and become good and holy members of the Faith.

Jesus invited everyone to join His Church: tax collectors, murderers, thieves, prostitutes, idolaters, and even Pharisees.....but with one caveat: He always asked them to leave behind their former way of life. Jesus compassionately forgave the woman caught in adultery (John 8:11); but He also said, "Go and sin no more." This is an aspect that Francis seems to ignore.


From what I know of the theological stances espoused by the wider Anglican community, that does not surprise me.


Shades of Jack Chick, LOL!

Just to let you know, Aaron, what Chiniquy wrote was hogwash. Total fiction. He has misled many innocent and gullible Christians into rejecting the Catholic Faith through his nonsense, and he has influenced other anti-Catholic writers, who seem to swallow his garbage whole, without doing the slightest bit of research to ensure its accuracy---which it doesn't have in the slightest degree. Alexander Hislop, Maria Monk, Avro Manhattan, and Lorraine Boettner are all in the same canoe with him: all of their "revelations" are nothing more than complete codswallop; fiction written for denigration or profit, without the slightest smidgen of truth contained in them.

You might be interested in reading through a short book I wrote about twelve years ago and published on this very site, which refutes a lot of the usual drivel ascribed to Catholicism, specifically that put forth by Lorraine Boettner. You can find it here:

The "Boettner List": Fact or Fiction?

Anyone is free to reproduce the following material in any form, as long as the author is given full credit for the material reproduced. :) God bless all here.

www.christianforums.com

If he believes balderdash written by Charles Chiniquy and his ilk, then no; he thinks we don't.

The Catholic Church will never apostatize like most of the mainstream Protestant denominations have in the past 50 years. We have Christ's word on that. That doesn't mean that many won't be led astray, both laypeople and clergy; we have Christ's word on that, too. But the solid remnant will always remain faithful, until the Lord returns again.


Yes, it does.

Good sources all, Michie. Thank you for the backup.

Not a problem Wolseley. I have gotten enough private messages from other Christians that read this forum. I’m not going to let baldfaced propaganda stand without presenting the facts. Our witness is important and that also includes standing up for the truth. Thank you for your support my friend!

 

[RileyG]

She never did become Catholic. She left the Lutherans behind when her pastor refused to give her a recommendation to attend a Baptist nursing school. She didn't go to any church for most of her life but ended up attending a Methodist church. My father was Catholic. His dad was Methodist and became Catholic.

Ah, that's interesting.

 

[RileyG]

As a confessional Lutheran I think they should, too. I have had sort of a fantasy for the past few years that the historical conservative Protestant small o orthodox churches(confessional Lutherans, Conservative Anglicans, the PCA, ect, all unify and become one church, along with the Catholics. I know in reality there would be a lot of barriers to get over, such as the infallibility of the Pope,(maybe not as hard as we think?)the doctrine of justification, etc. But maybe someday? I feel I have a lot more in common with traditonal Catholics than the ELCA, or super liberal protestants.

Not to go off topic, but if you ever read about the (very liberal) United Church of Canada, that's what they essentially wanted to do with all the Protestant Churches in Canada. The Lutherans and Anglicans did not join, however.

I'm sure you could include Global Methodists in that hypothetical Church as well.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As a confessional Lutheran I think they should, too. I have had sort of a fantasy for the past few years that the historical conservative Protestant small o orthodox churches(confessional Lutherans, Conservative Anglicans, the PCA, ect, all unify and become one church, along with the Catholics. I know in reality there would be a lot of barriers to get over, such as the infallibility of the Pope,(maybe not as hard as we think?)the doctrine of justification, etc. But maybe someday? I feel I have a lot more in common with traditonal Catholics than the ELCA, or super liberal protestants.

It SHOULD happen. Maybe things aren't 'so bad' yet that the collective wits feel the need for it. But, as is said, if we don't hang together we will all hang separately.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So many priests and others have left the wonky, more and more every day.
Charles Chiniquoy was a long time respected in Canada and Europe priest in a wonky,
and he did not mean to leave it, but was forced to ....
and his whole congregation left with him without a second thought - he had always taught them the truth .... so they stayed with him. He wrote about the evils in the book "Fifty Years in the Church" ...
it is VERY difficult to read - the abominations perpetrated by the wonky were horrible.

You do know, I hope, that this is the Catholic part of CF. You have the whole rest of CF to attack the Catholic faith except for this one little section where the rules are that anti-Catholics can't just say any anti-Catholic thing they choose. As I said, you have the whole rest of CF where you can do that.

Maybe you haven't been reported yet and your posts removed because somebody is waiting and giving you enough rope to metaphorically hang yourself. Or maybe because it's Christmas and most of us are feeling nice. I don't know. But do remember you are our guest here and not to abuse that status as guest to violate the rules of the house.

 

[Wolseley]

It SHOULD happen. Maybe things aren't 'so bad' yet that the collective wits feel the need for it. But, as is said, if we don't hang together we will all hang separately.

Benjamin Franklin. "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

 

[RileyG]

It SHOULD happen. Maybe things aren't 'so bad' yet that the collective wits feel the need for it. But, as is said, if we don't hang together we will all hang separately.

Essentially, Protestants can come back to Rome and have their own rite so to speak. I doubt it will ever happen under Francis.

 

[RileyG]

Benjamin Franklin. "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."

Amen! Jesus desires all Christians to be United!

 

[RileyG]

You do know, I hope, that this is the Catholic part of CF. You have the whole rest of CF to attack the Catholic faith except for this one little section where the rules are that anti-Catholics can't just say any anti-Catholic thing they choose. As I said, you have the whole rest of CF where you can do that.

Maybe you haven't been reported yet and your posts removed because somebody is waiting and giving you enough rope to metaphorically hang yourself. Or maybe because it's Christmas and most of us are feeling nice. I don't know. But do remember you are our guest here and not to abuse that status as guest to violate the rules of the house.

Fifty years in the Church is anti Catholic propaganda without an ounce to truth to it.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Same with the Maria Monk nonsense.

Lord, have mercy.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Essentially, Protestants can come back to Rome and have their own rite so to speak. I doubt it will ever happen under Francis.

I am happily surprised that he Anglican Ordinariate has fared pretty well under pope Francis. I think they are paving the way for a Lutheran Ordinariate and potentially other Ordinariates in the future. I don't know that pope Francis would be opposed. However these things take a lot of time. I wonder if any Lutherans would be eager to join while pope Francis is in office though, and they might wait for a better successor.

I for one would like to see a Lutheran Ordinariate. I think there are Lutheran ministers and laity that are in the ELCA who really wish they had a respectable place to escape to. And some European Lutherans, particularly in Scandinavia, might be very interested too. @TheLiturgist would probably be interested as well.